We started teaching folks how to do triathlon fits as a business, and there became a standard in the industry. Killed the snake oil fitters and techniques, and the smart ones joined the train, and the not so smart ones, well they are mostly gone now..

John Cobb's a snake oil salesman?

I think the FIST fitting being popularized and defined and kind of accepted as industry standard is part of the answer for sure, hoping there is other insight from others.

I believe it's this.

For most people, going longer, lower and keeping the hip angle open tends to work really well from a comfort/aero/power standpoint.

A while back, just to see how'd it work for me, I tried it out and didn't find it as comfortable. Power was fine but cannot speak to the aerodynamics.

Kraig Willet of BTR seems to be a fan.

I think part of the Big Slam's appeal was retro-fitting traditional road bikes into triathlon bikes. Now, bikes with triathlon geometry are a dime a dozen.

When I was younger I could ride pretty fast like that but it started taking a toll on my back.

"I got started on this line of thinking for a couple of reasons. One, I could not get comfortable on any tri bike this season. I’ve used Softrides, Litespeeds, Kestrels and a couple of other frames, searching for crotch comfort. I’ve tried every seat I’ve ever heard of looking for that "sweet spot" but had minimal success..."

well, it could be that John found a seat that worked in the steep position...

John Cobb's a snake oil salesman? //

Well since he has been teaching here at FIST for at least the last 5 years, maybe a bit more, then no…

And yes, it was FIST that was basically first to standardize tri fitting, but i meant the entire fitting industry that has adopted a similar attitude towards fitting when i said we. You could throw in several other good fitting services that try to use mostly metrics rather than art to do their fits with..

Occam's Razor would lead us to believe you are probably right.

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i was all set to respond to the first quote, but was glad i read on for this last quote. yes, john does do FIST fits and adds his own expertise, as i experienced this year. no mention of Big Slam….i think evolved into or subsumed under might be better phrases. as for the aforementioned expertise, during my FIST fit he decided that my particulars were better suited to a cobb JOF saddle-----than the cobb saddle i currently had and liked. and he was really, really right: in the long haul, the JOF was, in fact, more comfortable. i was very appreciative of that expertise.
peggy

It went the way I hope compression sox are going.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Compression sox are this centuries euro speedo, they aren't going anywhere…. (-;

Compression sox may or may not work. More importantly however they only look good in white, on pro women and only if they race in tartan mini skirts........but I digress ;-)

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Back when I first started publishing info about the Big Slam, there weren't nearly as many tri bikes available and it was still very common to see more road bikes at trialonsth than forward geometry bikes. I had developed some short aero bars for the first ITU races and needed to make them work, I went to the tunnel and worked out some elbow width and seat setback guidelines that were helpful for a lot of people. Remember that there were very few power meters available at that time so I went with heart rates and road speed to map results. Now we have options of shorter cranks, aero everything, so generally going for a forward geometry is easy and the FIST system has standardized things so that people that are new to the "fit" craft can get fairly good results. Getting a lot of experience and being willing to accept the good news or the bad from a fit session is still very important, the new machines and methods, in my opinion, can't replace hands on training and doing hundreds of fits. But, there are still a few of us that are willing to occasionally explore different positions and methods, the Ten Commandments did not include any specific bike geometries. Back in the 1980's a young racer named Dan started building bikes with a very different geometry and everybody slammed away on that thinking, it took a few years but it has proven out to be a good option for triathlons, is it the final answer? maybe or maybe not but we have to keep exploring and testing to get answers. I don't believe I have ever sold snake oil but I certainly have always been glad to try and show new fitters that they need to consider a lot of options for their customers to address that persons specific needs. This will be why some people succeed at fitting and others fail, you have to guide the customer to a better position and be willing to explain or offer several options.

But John, is the big slam a viable alternative for some people? I'd suspect it could be for certain individuals? Back then I raced a few sprints/olys on a slammed position Kestrel Talon road set up and was a bit faster thAn on my FISTed Cervelo tri bike over the same courses. Obviously this is not a scientific test but I remember reading some of your early writings and in Zinn's book on tri bike fit that you achieved decent results in the wind tunnel with the big slam position. Have you done any more work in this area since those days?

Yes, I think it's still viable, especially now with the availability of shorter cranks. A great rider like LeMond always rode in a very similar "Big Slam" position and I think any rider with exceptionally longer upper legs will find good success with it. Riders with shorter upper legs tend to do better with the more forward positions. From an aero standpoint, if the frames, wheels, etc were equal then I think the riders with a "B" style back and longer upper legs will be equally as fast. For the "A" style back riders, they have always tested faster in a forward, flatter position. I occasionally still aero test this and have as recently as two years ago, I still use it on occasion but probably just one out of 50 riders for triathletes but still use it a good bit on Roadies.

Just to clarify - I'm a fan of speed.

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Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
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Guilty as charged, John had me slammed 15 or twenty years ago and I am still 10 plus cm behind the BB on my TT bike and more on the road bike. Cross bike I am a tad more forward. So there are some guys still out there slammin away.