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2014 Felt AR vs. F4 for criteriums
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Anyone here have both - or have spent a fair amount of time on both - and used for criterium racing? Interested in thoughts on differences between how they handle on technical courses with lots of turns/accelerations.
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Re: 2014 Felt AR vs. F4 for criteriums [jackrobinson] [ In reply to ]
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Run a search on the main page for the AR. There was something done on a member's bike that he uses for crits.
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Re: 2014 Felt AR vs. F4 for criteriums [jackrobinson] [ In reply to ]
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I have been chewing on this dilemma myself. I have a great Tarmac SL3 that is stiff and handles great. BUT, it is about as aero as a barn door. (exposed cables, giant headtube, giant downtube) I keep seeing "watts" for sale with an AR or Propel. (S3 doesnt fit, cant afford a new S5) I think that you must lose some stiffness / sharpness in an aero design - maybe? That is the question, IMO. The geometry dictates behavior if the tubes behave as geometry intends. I fancy myself as a sprinter in the Masters races, but a Hang-on-for-dear-lifer in the P-1-2-3 races. I could sure use the extra 10-30 watts there. (drafting, not drafting, cross winds, etc) Especially due to the ever presence of cross winds and head winds in my stomping ground. Getting guttered along a fast straight while already cross-eyed is a real drag. (pun intended)
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Re: 2014 Felt AR vs. F4 for criteriums [Little Bill] [ In reply to ]
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I'm a little surprised the AR isn't more popular among crit racers. Same thing for the BMC Time Machine road frame . . . don't see anyone on BMC riding them. Things like the AR and BMC seem to be the do-it-all-pretty-well bikes, but aren't as popular on the road scene.
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Re: 2014 Felt AR vs. F4 for criteriums [jackrobinson] [ In reply to ]
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I read somewhere that the new AR FRD is only 5%? Less stiff than a F1. In a different thread I also read that the AR FRD is 11%? more stiff than an AR1. I be damned if I can find either thread. I thought it was weightweenies or roadbikereview. I thought both things were stated by SuperDave. If those are basically right, that would add more interest IMO. Maybe we should light the SuperDave beacon?

I am super close to buying an AR1, and will be test riding an AR3 this week. I will be bringing my own wheels, so it should help me gauge things.
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Re: 2014 Felt AR vs. F4 for criteriums [Little Bill] [ In reply to ]
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Which model year are you looking at? I think the 2015 models (AR1 at least) have different carbon/different stiffness.
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Re: 2014 Felt AR vs. F4 for criteriums [jackrobinson] [ In reply to ]
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2015 AR1. They are vaporware right now. I feel like I read (SuperDave) that the frames should be available in November. My googlefu is failing miserably, as I can't find that one either.
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Re: 2014 Felt AR vs. F4 for criteriums [Little Bill] [ In reply to ]
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Curious if you've looked at the BMC or thought about the new Cervelo S5. Geometry is all similar (sorta). Either way will be interested to know what you get/think of it.
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Re: 2014 Felt AR vs. F4 for criteriums [jackrobinson] [ In reply to ]
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Too far out of price range. I try to have a policy of: don't race it if you can't replace it. Both framesets are like 4k+. AR1 is 2.5k. The shop I ride for sells Cervelo, Giant, and Felt. So, all are options were it not for my checkbook. AR1 vs Propel Adv is where I am standing.
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Re: 2014 Felt AR vs. F4 for criteriums [jackrobinson] [ In reply to ]
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jackrobinson wrote:
Anyone here have both - or have spent a fair amount of time on both - and used for criterium racing? Interested in thoughts on differences between how they handle on technical courses with lots of turns/accelerations.

The AR.

Always use the AR unless you aren't riding in Earth's atmosphere or you only have $2000 to spend on a race bike (F5 is $1899)
The AR2 collected more than 20 Pro wins this year along with a Criterium National Championship.

The AR FRD and F FRD have the same stiffness. The F series have a higher STW but that is largely irrelevant in a criterium if the ultimate stiffness is similar.
The AR and F have the same head angle, seat angle, trail, BB drop, etc. Handling differences are tiny compared to and F vs. Tarmac, vs. R5 vs. Super6EVO, etc.

The AR1 just began shipping to fill backorders that are dated back to 2014 when the previous model years' bike was sold out.

I've spent ~8500 miles on an AR1 and about 20,000 on the F1 including many criterium races from NCC to local industrial park weeknight events.

I'm equally adept at losing on both. :)

-SD

https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era
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Re: 2014 Felt AR vs. F4 for criteriums [SuperDave] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Dave! I will be doing some riding on a Propel and AR this week just to get a feel for things. The AR looks pretty imminent! I know you are not in sales, but I will ask the question of availability on the AR1 frameset - if I were to order (soon), would it be available before Thanksgiving? (56cm) I appreciate your spectacular support of Felt in this type of environment.
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Re: 2014 Felt AR vs. F4 for criteriums [Little Bill] [ In reply to ]
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Little Bill wrote:
Thanks Dave! I will be doing some riding on a Propel and AR this week just to get a feel for things. The AR looks pretty imminent! I know you are not in sales, but I will ask the question of availability on the AR1 frameset - if I were to order (soon), would it be available before Thanksgiving? (56cm) I appreciate your spectacular support of Felt in this type of environment.

AR1 framesets are in stock in the USA warehouse.
Are you in the US?

-sD

https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era
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Re: 2014 Felt AR vs. F4 for criteriums [jackrobinson] [ In reply to ]
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I raced an AR2 this year. It's a great bike pretty much anything you'd want to use it for, including crits. Handling is superb and while comfort isn't a consideration for a short crit, the ride quality is excellent for an aero frame.
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Re: 2014 Felt AR vs. F4 for criteriums [SuperDave] [ In reply to ]
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I drove over to the dealer this AM to sort out the test rides, and he said the same thing. (I should have asked him first, instead of you, Dave!) Propel Advanced and AR5 sitting on the floor. Both bikes are a great deal - but I am enamored with the idea of an AR1 too. Test rides to follow this week. I am curious if there will be any noticeable differences in *perception* during the rides. I will be bringing my own wheels (tires, cassette, etc) to try and remove that from the equation. I appreciate the input too, I knew that Mr. Spackler and Dave have been romping with their ARs and were very happy. I mere mortal, such as I, should be good to go.
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Re: 2014 Felt AR vs. F4 for criteriums [SuperDave] [ In reply to ]
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[sorry to hi-jack]

SD I pm'd you, any chance you can reply it would mean a lot.
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Re: 2014 Felt AR vs. F4 for criteriums [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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What do you think of the rear brake? Has it been a problem not being able to adjust it on the fly (i.e. for wheel rub)? That's my one hesitation on this frame.
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Re: 2014 Felt AR vs. F4 for criteriums [jackrobinson] [ In reply to ]
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The stock rear brake is a Shimano issue. It's not great but I raced it all year without any problem. Have your shop put a barrel adjuster behind bars to have more adjustability. That won't help brake feel but will make it easier to use.
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Re: 2014 Felt AR vs. F4 for criteriums [SuperDave] [ In reply to ]
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I am now the proud (future) owner of an AR1 frameset. I went and rode an AR5 (too small 54cm on floor) and Propel Advanced (not SL) that was the correct size. Riding the bikes back to back, and then mixing in my SL3 gave me a some perceptible differences. (Probably in my head) (I did ride my own wheelset) I felt like the Propel had some frame twist during high-ish speed high torque sprinting when cranking on the bars. It was a weird sensation. There was near zero of this twist in the SL3, and maybe a tiny bit of it in the AR.

My course was around a neighbor for some general handling, and then down a hill to a flat, and at the bottom of the hill I was doing repeated jumps in the 1200-1300 watt range (close to maximal), starting at 25-27 mph. I wasn't keen on the idea of tossing one of the new bikes into a turn too hard, so I they seemed to handle pretty similar, and climbing up a short kicker, they seemed very similarly stiff in the BB. So, the Propel fell a little out of favor, plus I frankly didn't like the proprietary brakes and its fat steer tube that requires special stems.

I am super excited. I was told that the frameset should be in next week. Big shout out to Jeff Williams @ Elite Cycling in Leawood, KS for his help, and the help of his crew: Bob and Ted.

(If anybody wants a 2014 54cm Felt AR5, Jeff has that one marked a bunch, and it is a smoking deal!)
Last edited by: Little Bill: Oct 23, 14 19:27
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Re: 2014 Felt AR vs. F4 for criteriums [SuperDave] [ In reply to ]
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SuperDave wrote:
AR1 framesets are in stock in the USA warehouse.
Are you in the US?

-sD

It appears that this may not be the case? I just got word that there will be a delay....? (56cm)
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