Oops my bad - yes you're both right!

Yeah that's what he is saying.
Most people know no other way than to overbike.

I am questioning the "wayyy slower" part.
I contend that maybe(?) most AG racers (even many FOP AG racers) would "blown up" anyway.
Although I am not sure this is the case in 70.3 races.
(Many AG racers manage some pretty impressive run splits at this distance. And it is much easier to be prepared for a 56 mile ride.)

It occurs to me that "suffer" is the key word.
How much would you "suffer"?

If by "suffer" you mean how "much misery"- I think the answer is always "a lot."
If you mean how "much time will I lose"- I think that is much more complicated.

I think I'm in that 1%. I rode IMLOU in 5:56 at 154watts and puked my guts out at mile 14 and beyond. I lowered my goal for IMMO and rode 144watts at 6:20 and still got sick at mile 14. I've had GI issues for 10 out of my 11 IMs; always on the run and some worse than others. This was my first year with a powermeter and I thought that throttling the bike would solve my GI issue. It did not. I'm at a loss for what to try next year for #12.

then, you are the kind of guy I want to work with....I love challenges ;)

do you puck on the couch sitting down? what about in training?

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

I try not puke inside the house ;) No GI issues in training with longest session this year being a couple of 7hr bikes. No issues with sprints, OLYs, or 1/2 IM. IM is my nemesis.

Try avoiding maltodextrin. I found that my stomach hates it, but not immediately, takes a couple hours. Try lots of diff nutrition in training. I'm thinking of trying Ucan - the corn starch stuff. But I don't have any experience. And I don't want to hi-jack the OP thread.

very rarely will maltodextrin would be the issue. That is the safest and one of the best way to go about nutrition for ironman. of course, it was to be the right mix and the right quantity but in term of avoiding maltodextrin, I still never seen a single athlete that had true problem with it. issue where always related to something else.

As always, my recommendation for testing are....try it sitting on the couch, if you aren't sick...I can make it work for you on the bike.

---

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

True in some ways but I think most would agree that for every minute you bike too fast, you'll lose more time in the run.

For most of us, FTPs are in the high 100's/low 200s....and there a watt = roughly a minute. Maybe 5 watts/minutes on the bike for 10 minutes on the run is a bit high but maybe it is about right for most. I have no data - just know that most racers seem to bike too hard and underperform a lot on the run. I like the 1:2 ratio so put it out there as my opinion - too broad - yes. Over-generalization - yes. Everyone is different and some can ride a bit hard and run ok. Some ride about right and still blow....

I never said that you'd run well if you hit your watts right on....if you spike power too much/blow nutrition/blow hydration etc....can lead to a bad run too....

Dave

My guess is that if I biked 5:10 instead of 5:00 I would have finished faster overall. I should not be running a 4:07 IM marathon. I figured the worse case scenerio would have been 3:45-3:50.

Wow, it's great that we have affordable power meters now, riding and then running must have been impossible 10 years ago...

When I read your question yesterday, I immediately thought, no one will have actual data on this.

And I was right among the respondents, but I got to looking.

This paper,
Relationship between laboratory-measured variables and heart rate during an ultra-endurance triathlon.
Laursen PB1, Knez WL, Shing CM, Langill RH, Rhodes EC, Jenkins DG.

Says that the difference between VT1 and bike average hr correlates with ironman run time. r = 0.61. They say that VT1 hr seems to be pretty close tooptimal bike hr in the people they studied.

I got the full paper and unfortunately they don't give the actual regression. But eyeballing figure 5 from their paper, it looks like overbiking by 10 bpm will add 26 minutes to your ironman run. Though I think in general it i much more non-linear than it was for this particular study. I think it's more of a detonation type thing, less than 5 bpm over - you can deal - 10 bpm over you're gonna struggle, 15 bpm over - good luck my friend.

What's the accepted definition of VT1?

Thanks Kevin. I didn't think there was hard evidence out there. I was just looking for "real" experiences. I'm not sure how much over my heart rate was because I wasn't wearing a heart rate monitor. Maybe I just need more of a endurance base and I'm being too optimistic with my times. This is only my 4th year doing triathlons and before that I never ran more than probably a mile or two. I never played any kind of sport in middle school or high school expect the casual pick up basketball game.

Nobody asked him about bike training either. Apparently it's just assumed that if you can run a open of 2:57 then you can expect a 3:30 run regardless of bike fitness, you just need a working power meter.

My bike fitness was great and I was biking 300+ miles per week and I still had a bad marathon in a earlier ironman this season. So it might be other reasons besides over biking. I noticed that you had an injury leading up. Maybe you lost significant run fitness? I had a run injury too leading into my ironman that I know affected my results.

Intensity at which rate of oxygen throughput increases without an increase in co2 throughput.

There are some people who way you can peg it with hrv data in a couple of different ways, I've tried both of those and the results always seemed high.

here is the link which wasnt working above
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=laursen+knez

sentania wrote:

What's the accepted definition of VT1?

per the article it says: "the first ventilatory thresholds (146 +/- 12 and 148 +/- 15 beats x min(-1) respectively)" (bike and run)

At my last IM, one of my shifter cables broke just after the halfway point. I ended up MacGuyvering it but needless to say, I was doing essentially a recovery ride for 40+ miles. I was bummed until I started running. I ended up just missing my standalone marathon time by only a few minutes! And my bike fiasco only cost me 20 minutes off my best IM bike time. Yet, I cut nearly 30 minutes off my best IM run time.