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Why is Australia and NZ kicking U.S. arse in endurance sports?
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Yeah, if your an American I am sure you are angry now.
"Suck" is probably a bit of an overstatement.
But on a per capita basis, in comparison with Australia or New Zealand? The U.S. looks terrible.
Ideas:
1) Resources- Australia/ NZ have government resources. But the U.S. has the college system.
2) Children's sports- does American football and baseball destroy your chances for adult sports? is rugby, Australian rules, and cricket somehow better?
3) Is there some kind of "small country" effect?
4) Demographics- apparently cycling and triathlon are "working-class" activities in Australia. (I read this in an article. But Australians I know have confirmed the theory). But are upper and middle class people inherently slow? There are a tons in these categories in the U.S.?
5) Is there some kind of weird inverse attitude thing? American seem to really like this "good work ethic value". And Australian's like to think of themselves as "laid back." Do people approach sports as the inverse of their daily life? Or do we value the attributes that we lack?
6) Fat?- Australia and NZ are pretty competitive here also.
7) Coincidence?
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Re: Why is Australia and NZ kicking U.S. arse in endurance sports? [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
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this should be a productive conversation. i look forward to several pages of nuanced, thoughtful debate.

-mike

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: Why is Australia and NZ kicking U.S. arse in endurance sports? [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Why is Australia and NZ kicking U.S. arse in endurance sports? [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, if your an American I am sure you are angry now.
"Suck" is probably a bit of an overstatement

_______


Really I could care less ..... must have something to do with kangaroos or koala bears ;-)


Dave
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Re: Why is Australia and NZ kicking U.S. arse in endurance sports? [dcsxtri10] [ In reply to ]
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dcsxtri10 wrote:
Yeah, if your an American I am sure you are angry now.
"Suck" is probably a bit of an overstatement

_______


Really I could care less ..... must have something to do with kangaroos or koala bears ;-)


Dave

What are we talking cross breeding here?
None of those animals in NZ.
Although sheep?
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Re: Why is Australia and NZ kicking U.S. arse in endurance sports? [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
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I think it's simply because the US puts their children into either 1)baseball, 2)soccer, 3)swimming, 4)football, or 5)gymnastics while I bet that the Australians put their kids into 1)swimming, 2)cycling, 3)running, 4)rugby/soccer.
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Re: Why is Australia and NZ kicking U.S. arse in endurance sports? [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
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Put endurance sports in the U.S college system (ex. scholarships) and real money in the pro ranks you will see it progress in the U.S. We just added womens tri as an offical college sport, so that is great first step. Parents will put their kids in it a very young ages if there is a potential future in it for them.


--------------------------------------------------------
John Behme
Charlotte, NC
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Re: Why is Australia and NZ kicking U.S. arse in endurance sports? [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
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Because kids in oz and nz grow up running barefoot 15 miles to school each day. Just one of the upsides to living in a poverty stricken country with dirt roads and no transportation. That and the ozone hole.
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Re: Why is Australia and NZ kicking U.S. arse in endurance sports? [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
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I think if I lived in a country where all of the animals, even some of the mammals, are venomous, I would also be very good at running.

I will give you triathlon, but really what other endurance sports is Australia so much better at? Marathon, 5k and 10k, I think America may be ahead and those dwarf almost every other endurance sport in participation and importance. Cycling is pretty much a draw. What is rowing like?
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Re: Why is Australia and NZ kicking U.S. arse in endurance sports? [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
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I remember being at a coaches conference at the OTC back in the early 90's and Bill Sweetenham was one of the speakers. I remember him talking about Australia making a concerted effort to develop distance swimmers.

_______________________________________________
Triple Threat Triathlon
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Re: Why is Australia and NZ kicking U.S. arse in endurance sports? [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
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1) Youth perception of ROI for training. IMO, as a naturally gifted athlete in the US you go after sports that give you the best shot at a college scholarship (which is a different system of tuition cost to the student than the other two countries) and even perhaps the chance at professional levels. What's the chance of making it as a pro endurance athlete vs major NCAA sports; now weight their average annual salary on those chances.

2) Endurance sport isn't sexy, and sexy sells advertising. Kids get exposed to what sells and idolize it from a young age.

I'd expect statistics to show that per capita the talent levels (however the hell you would quantify that) would be about the same, but they're diverted to other avenues because of 1 & 2.

Abell
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Re: Why is Australia and NZ kicking U.S. arse in endurance sports? [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
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Letting Australia/ NZ win at some events was part of the deal that let the US have Crocodile Dundee ..... we came out way ahead ;-)

Dave
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Re: Why is Australia and NZ kicking U.S. arse in endurance sports? [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
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I'll bite, but only because I could care less what kind of response I get...

Triathlon in the US is the type of sport you will catch on ESPN 8, "The Ocho". Once a year it shows up in our households to make us "feel" better about people with all the Kona Inspired stories and most of the triathletes aren't getting paid squat. On the other hand, there is a constant stream of football, baseball, basketball and even soccer these days. Kids can get full rides to college based on these sports. There are leagues for each of these sports in EVERY city, town and rural outpost in the country. You can pick up a basketball at a local store for around $10. Kids see athletes getting paid millions of dollars plus getting shoe contracts and dating models just for making it in the "big time".

Coming from a elite rowing background, I kind experienced a lot of the same feelings I do with triathlon, but at least then I had a team to work with. I spent 51 weeks out of the year training endless hours for less than 10 races in a year. Most people didn't understand why I did it back then. I was a sub-16 minute 5k with no formal run training (I ran a lot for general conditioning) and a 4:40 mile as a sophomore. I could have easily gone a lot faster and probably gotten a scholarship to college if I had focused on running. I kept rowing because I enjoyed the sport and knew it would help me get into college, even without the scholarship (preferred admission). I was also given the opportunity to compete on the world stage racing at the Jr World Championships in the mid 90's.

Rowing had no fame or glory attached, much like triathlon has such limited fame and glory here in the US. If you walked down the street and asked 100 people to name a single triathlete who has won an ITU or Kona championship, 98 of them would think you were high. If you asked 100 people in your office if they wanted to compete in an ironman, 99 would think you are high and the 1 that said yes would talk your ear off about the gear and training method they planned on using (that one number is probably rounded up from .1 since most people here in the US don't give a shit).
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Re: Why is Australia and NZ kicking U.S. arse in endurance sports? [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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Cycling a draw?
If you forget Australia has half the population of California maybe? Multiply the number of Australian grand tour rider's by 15. And Olympic swim medals. Ridiculous dominance would ensue.
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Re: Why is Australia and NZ kicking U.S. arse in endurance sports? [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
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dirtymangos wrote:
Cycling a draw?
If you forget Australia has half the population of California maybe? Multiply the number of Australian grand tour rider's by 15. And Olympic swim medals. Ridiculous dominance would ensue.

learn math and statistics.

Join us on a bicycle touring or backpacking trip at blazeadventuretours.com
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Re: Why is Australia and NZ kicking U.S. arse in endurance sports? [dmiller430] [ In reply to ]
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Ok so how should we consider a country of 23 million in comparison with 317 million?
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Re: Why is Australia and NZ kicking U.S. arse in endurance sports? [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
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dirtymangos wrote:
Cycling a draw?
If you forget Australia has half the population of California maybe? Multiply the number of Australian grand tour rider's by 15. And Olympic swim medals. Ridiculous dominance would ensue.

http://www.databaseolympics.com/...sportpage.htm?sp=SWI

Fact, you are wrong... US has almost 4x the golds in Olympic Swimming, 3x the silvers and 2x the bronze... Care to try again?
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Re: Why is Australia and NZ kicking U.S. arse in endurance sports? [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
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dirtymangos wrote:
Cycling a draw?
If you forget Australia has half the population of California maybe? Multiply the number of Australian grand tour rider's by 15. And Olympic swim medals. Ridiculous dominance would ensue.

I thought you were asking why Australia performs better, not why Australia performs better per capita. The per capita performance metric will always favor the smaller country.

Part of that is that performance will not increase linearly with population size. One reason being in the Olympics one nation can only have two swimmers in each event and only one relay team, so a larger country gets less of an advantage. If australia had the same population as the US, they would be sending the same amount of swimmers as now. I would doubt they would win more than 3 times as many medals as they do now, even with 15 times the population. Also a larger country will support more sports, so even if the population double, double the people may not be swimming. Maybe only 50% more start swimming, because now the population has enough people to support a new niche sport that draws some of those people that may swim.

Ok, how does Australia compare to the US in XC skiing or Biathlon? Or speed skating? Those are endurance sports, where is Australia?
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Re: Why is Australia and NZ kicking U.S. arse in endurance sports? [dcsxtri10] [ In reply to ]
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dcsxtri10 wrote:
Yeah, if your an American I am sure you are angry now.
"Suck" is probably a bit of an overstatement

_______


Really I could care less ..... must have something to do with kangaroos or koala bears ;-)


Dave

So you admit you care at least to some degree. ;-)

Not Dave
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Re: Why is Australia and NZ kicking U.S. arse in endurance sports? [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
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dirtymangos wrote:
on a per capita basis

What a poor metric to use to measure success by.
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Re: Why is Australia and NZ kicking U.S. arse in endurance sports? [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
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intelligently, not with the comprehension and approach of a 4th grader.

Join us on a bicycle touring or backpacking trip at blazeadventuretours.com
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Re: Why is Australia and NZ kicking U.S. arse in endurance sports? [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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Good reply. Although I am still skeptical. Still, as for winter sports. How many athletes come from Hawaii and Florida? Not a big follower. But how is NZ in winter sports?
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Re: Why is Australia and NZ kicking U.S. arse in endurance sports? [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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You should also remember that the US sends a much wider contingency of athletes across all sports which dilutes the pool to pull from as well. If you took the top athletes in the US and focused on a few key sports they could potentially have vastly superior athletes. China is starting to do this more and more where they focus on their events and essentially select the children that have the appropriate frame for that sport at a very early age. Those kids are then sent to training programs that develop them to maximize their long term potential. I don't want to call it doping because it is just selection camp taken to the extreme, but if all countries did this for all sports it would be a very different world in sports.
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Re: Why is Australia and NZ kicking U.S. arse in endurance sports? [dmiller430] [ In reply to ]
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dmiller430 wrote:
intelligently, not with the comprehension and approach of a 4th grader.

Yes you are an American. A special, secret field of math exists to demonstrate your superiority. Just explain it and maybe I wil bow down to its wonders.
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Re: Why is Australia and NZ kicking U.S. arse in endurance sports? [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
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US expat living in Middle Earth for nearly 8 years...


  • Gov't support: Indirectly through Sport NZ. Triathlon is one of the "chosen" sports that have significance to the country (code for Kiwis do pretty well on the international stage for a country of 4 million). However, Tri NZ is under the gun having not won any medals at the Olympics since Beijing. Kiwi women have never won an Olympic medal. Tri NZ has to get someone on the podium in Rio.
  • The sport was embraced early on (see Ironman NZ), as a result it's in the school system, the Weet-Bix tri series is nationwide, overall the club system is MUCH stronger than in the US (to make any Age Group World team you must be a member of a club), NZ, like Oz, has a history of surf lifesaving competitions which are just one way to feed into the sport, high school kids have an opportunity to do draft legal races (as do age groupers),there are ample opportunities to compete in aquathlons & ocean swim races and so forth...
  • The US has way more sport options for the typical middle class kid. NZ's big sport is Rugby. This is followed by League, sailing, cricket and soccer. The kiwis have a history of success in track & field as well as cycling. Elite athletes are your neighbors. They belong to the local tri club. Americans play football in fall, basketball in the winter and baseball/softball in the spring. Through in ice hockey, track & field, soccer...lots o' places to play.
  • Work ethic: NO. Kiwis are working on becoming just as obese as Americans.
  • Small country: One statement that the media & politicians use is that NZ "punches above its weight." It's almost as they are apologizing or are surprised at their success in certain sports. To GROSSLY over-generalize, kiwis are self-conscious. They live in the shadow of Australia.

With the NCAA approving women's triathlon as an emerging sport, if I were establishing a program I would certainly look to Middle Earth & Oz for athletes.

#swimmingmatters
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
The Doctor (#12)

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