this should be a productive conversation. i look forward to several pages of nuanced, thoughtful debate.

-mike

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

 

Yeah, if your an American I am sure you are angry now.
"Suck" is probably a bit of an overstatement
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Really I could care less ..... must have something to do with kangaroos or koala bears ;-)


Dave

What are we talking cross breeding here?
None of those animals in NZ.
Although sheep?

I think it's simply because the US puts their children into either 1)baseball, 2)soccer, 3)swimming, 4)football, or 5)gymnastics while I bet that the Australians put their kids into 1)swimming, 2)cycling, 3)running, 4)rugby/soccer.

Put endurance sports in the U.S college system (ex. scholarships) and real money in the pro ranks you will see it progress in the U.S. We just added womens tri as an offical college sport, so that is great first step. Parents will put their kids in it a very young ages if there is a potential future in it for them.

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John Behme
Charlotte, NC

Because kids in oz and nz grow up running barefoot 15 miles to school each day. Just one of the upsides to living in a poverty stricken country with dirt roads and no transportation. That and the ozone hole.

I think if I lived in a country where all of the animals, even some of the mammals, are venomous, I would also be very good at running.

I will give you triathlon, but really what other endurance sports is Australia so much better at? Marathon, 5k and 10k, I think America may be ahead and those dwarf almost every other endurance sport in participation and importance. Cycling is pretty much a draw. What is rowing like?

I remember being at a coaches conference at the OTC back in the early 90's and Bill Sweetenham was one of the speakers. I remember him talking about Australia making a concerted effort to develop distance swimmers.

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Triple Threat Triathlon

1) Youth perception of ROI for training. IMO, as a naturally gifted athlete in the US you go after sports that give you the best shot at a college scholarship (which is a different system of tuition cost to the student than the other two countries) and even perhaps the chance at professional levels. What's the chance of making it as a pro endurance athlete vs major NCAA sports; now weight their average annual salary on those chances.

2) Endurance sport isn't sexy, and sexy sells advertising. Kids get exposed to what sells and idolize it from a young age.

I'd expect statistics to show that per capita the talent levels (however the hell you would quantify that) would be about the same, but they're diverted to other avenues because of 1 & 2.

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Abell

Letting Australia/ NZ win at some events was part of the deal that let the US have Crocodile Dundee ..... we came out way ahead ;-)

Dave

I'll bite, but only because I could care less what kind of response I get...

Triathlon in the US is the type of sport you will catch on ESPN 8, "The Ocho". Once a year it shows up in our households to make us "feel" better about people with all the Kona Inspired stories and most of the triathletes aren't getting paid squat. On the other hand, there is a constant stream of football, baseball, basketball and even soccer these days. Kids can get full rides to college based on these sports. There are leagues for each of these sports in EVERY city, town and rural outpost in the country. You can pick up a basketball at a local store for around $10. Kids see athletes getting paid millions of dollars plus getting shoe contracts and dating models just for making it in the "big time".

Coming from a elite rowing background, I kind experienced a lot of the same feelings I do with triathlon, but at least then I had a team to work with. I spent 51 weeks out of the year training endless hours for less than 10 races in a year. Most people didn't understand why I did it back then. I was a sub-16 minute 5k with no formal run training (I ran a lot for general conditioning) and a 4:40 mile as a sophomore. I could have easily gone a lot faster and probably gotten a scholarship to college if I had focused on running. I kept rowing because I enjoyed the sport and knew it would help me get into college, even without the scholarship (preferred admission). I was also given the opportunity to compete on the world stage racing at the Jr World Championships in the mid 90's.

Rowing had no fame or glory attached, much like triathlon has such limited fame and glory here in the US. If you walked down the street and asked 100 people to name a single triathlete who has won an ITU or Kona championship, 98 of them would think you were high. If you asked 100 people in your office if they wanted to compete in an ironman, 99 would think you are high and the 1 that said yes would talk your ear off about the gear and training method they planned on using (that one number is probably rounded up from .1 since most people here in the US don't give a shit).

Cycling a draw?
If you forget Australia has half the population of California maybe? Multiply the number of Australian grand tour rider's by 15. And Olympic swim medals. Ridiculous dominance would ensue.

learn math and statistics.

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Join us on a bicycle touring or backpacking trip at blazeadventuretours.com

Ok so how should we consider a country of 23 million in comparison with 317 million?

http://www.databaseolympics.com/...sportpage.htm?sp=SWI

Fact, you are wrong... US has almost 4x the golds in Olympic Swimming, 3x the silvers and 2x the bronze... Care to try again?

I thought you were asking why Australia performs better, not why Australia performs better per capita. The per capita performance metric will always favor the smaller country.

Part of that is that performance will not increase linearly with population size. One reason being in the Olympics one nation can only have two swimmers in each event and only one relay team, so a larger country gets less of an advantage. If australia had the same population as the US, they would be sending the same amount of swimmers as now. I would doubt they would win more than 3 times as many medals as they do now, even with 15 times the population. Also a larger country will support more sports, so even if the population double, double the people may not be swimming. Maybe only 50% more start swimming, because now the population has enough people to support a new niche sport that draws some of those people that may swim.

Ok, how does Australia compare to the US in XC skiing or Biathlon? Or speed skating? Those are endurance sports, where is Australia?

So you admit you care at least to some degree. ;-)

Not Dave

What a poor metric to use to measure success by.

intelligently, not with the comprehension and approach of a 4th grader.

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Join us on a bicycle touring or backpacking trip at blazeadventuretours.com

Good reply. Although I am still skeptical. Still, as for winter sports. How many athletes come from Hawaii and Florida? Not a big follower. But how is NZ in winter sports?

You should also remember that the US sends a much wider contingency of athletes across all sports which dilutes the pool to pull from as well. If you took the top athletes in the US and focused on a few key sports they could potentially have vastly superior athletes. China is starting to do this more and more where they focus on their events and essentially select the children that have the appropriate frame for that sport at a very early age. Those kids are then sent to training programs that develop them to maximize their long term potential. I don't want to call it doping because it is just selection camp taken to the extreme, but if all countries did this for all sports it would be a very different world in sports.

Yes you are an American. A special, secret field of math exists to demonstrate your superiority. Just explain it and maybe I wil bow down to its wonders.

US expat living in Middle Earth for nearly 8 years...

• Gov't support: Indirectly through Sport NZ. Triathlon is one of the "chosen" sports that have significance to the country (code for Kiwis do pretty well on the international stage for a country of 4 million). However, Tri NZ is under the gun having not won any medals at the Olympics since Beijing. Kiwi women have never won an Olympic medal. Tri NZ has to get someone on the podium in Rio.
• The sport was embraced early on (see Ironman NZ), as a result it's in the school system, the Weet-Bix tri series is nationwide, overall the club system is MUCH stronger than in the US (to make any Age Group World team you must be a member of a club), NZ, like Oz, has a history of surf lifesaving competitions which are just one way to feed into the sport, high school kids have an opportunity to do draft legal races (as do age groupers),there are ample opportunities to compete in aquathlons & ocean swim races and so forth...
• The US has way more sport options for the typical middle class kid. NZ's big sport is Rugby. This is followed by League, sailing, cricket and soccer. The kiwis have a history of success in track & field as well as cycling. Elite athletes are your neighbors. They belong to the local tri club. Americans play football in fall, basketball in the winter and baseball/softball in the spring. Through in ice hockey, track & field, soccer...lots o' places to play.
• Work ethic: NO. Kiwis are working on becoming just as obese as Americans.
• Small country: One statement that the media & politicians use is that NZ "punches above its weight." It's almost as they are apologizing or are surprised at their success in certain sports. To GROSSLY over-generalize, kiwis are self-conscious. They live in the shadow of Australia.

With the NCAA approving women's triathlon as an emerging sport, if I were establishing a program I would certainly look to Middle Earth & Oz for athletes.

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#swimmingmatters
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
The Doctor (#12)

This isn't only limited to endurance sports. Surfing, skateboarding, BMX, MTB, sailing, crew... The list goes on. I really think that it's more about how in AUS/NZ sport is not only praised higher, but it's also more collaborative rather than elitist.

In the US, if you walk into your LBS/running shop/surf shop for the first time, you get a cold shoulder and are shunned until you can prove that you belong. It's the same when you're new to a trail, surf spot, gym, pool... It's a different vibe down under. Joining an alternative sport is celebrated. Most Aussies don't just do one sport, they can do most of them and they just pick what suits them best. Here, in the US, a kid can do one sport and that's it. A surfer's a surfer and can't do anything else, or his surfer friends will call you a poser. That mentality doesn't go away. Look at the ST endurance vs. CF wars.

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Just keep swimming...

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Not enough polarized training.

 

Really I could care less ..... must have something to do with kangaroos or koala bears ;-)


Dave[/quote]\

Well said... who cares

Did you really include rowing in that list???? I'm sorry but NZ/AUS history in rowing is not that deep in comparison to the US. It isn't even close...

I know some good sheep jokes. Would it help if I shared them?

The proper usage is not as clear cut as many think.

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/...archives/001182.html

Let's just let the Sochi metal count be the judge.

FTFY.

I think there is something to the strong club culture and the accessibility to elite athletes. I live in a small city in nz pop. 40, 000. As we all know racing, training and plain old hanging round with good people helps heaps, I can think of 2 Olympians, 1 Olympic coach and several national reps across various disciplines here in town. And that is not unusual in NZ, and they are just regular ppl who are happy to talk and give advice or tell stories. It kind of makes elite level seem achievable, no A list pretentions. Its like living in Boulder I imagine, just on a tiny scale.

haha...are you saying usa is stronger than nz in rowing?

you do realise that the general template for endurance training kindof originated in nz ...right?

I suppose for the same reason you in NZ and AU accept such absurd income tax rates. We may suck at endurance sport but at least we can retire wealthy.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

The conversation wasn't about who originated or perfected the idea of training. The conversation is who is better than who. There are a couple ways to look at it:

1st step: define endurance sports
2nd step: define metrics for performance evaluation and time period for consideration (historically or currently)

- Per Capita
- Per Participation % (i.e. take membership size of USAT vs TriAus vs. TriNZ)
- Total Medal/ Win Count
- Total world record count

You can even take a composite weight from the 4 categories above. This wouldnt be too complicated to do, but someone with more time will need to do it.

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Thoughts on being an Urban Triathlete

And I was only half joking. Any developed nation that taxes it's citizens at such draconian levels should have sufficient money to invest in sport.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

The trinz membership figure is complicated by the fact that it's free - they realised that no one cared once membership went under 1000 so first dropped to 10 NZ peanuts p/a then started giving membership away.
I vote for the time period being 1985-2004

Have you seen Monte Python's Meaning of Life? The protestant is claiming he is better than the Catholic because of all the sexual liberties he can enjoy. And his wife is very very interested, but wonders why she has only had sex twice.
"Could retire wealthy" and actually do? I am not sure what the truth is there.

The United States definitely have the advantage on the track and in the marathon.

Not sure NZ tax rates are that absurd. Max is 33% (though hit at a very low income level) but there are no state taxes and that does provide for all your health care. US is not a low tax regime compared to rest of world.

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"Oh man, it's going to take days to kill all these people!" - Jens Voigt

How many of the Olympic swimming events are "endurance sports"?

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

Simple fact... How many Olympic medals do Aus and NZ have in rowing combined? Take that and add 50% and you might equal the same number of medals as the US in the sport. I've got a lot of respect for Aus and NZ in rowing but to make claims that either program has a more prolific history in rowing is crazy... University of Washington men beating the Hitler's German boat in Berlin is one of the single greatest rowing events to ever take place.

from a young age we were required to catch our dinner....you would start out by chasing small rodents, build up to baby wallabies and then ultimately hone your endurance chasing adult red kangaroos ;-)

Someone implied earlier it was because you cross breed with the Kangaroo's and Koala's. Personally, I was a little uncertain that cross-breeding with Koala's would help.

1.Because the best still follow the Lydiard principals.

2. I grew up in Chrsitchurch, New Zealand and sports are big part of school system from the start. I can't remember not being involved school sports from the beginning. We would have inner school sports, then regional champs and then nationals. In high school sport was mandatory. Our school was broken down into houses/teams and there was always competition for athletic supremacy in swimming, cross-country, track and field, triathlon, basketball, cycling..ect. You get ingrained with hard work and pushing the limits from all the competition you were exposed to. Man i loved it!

3 or 4x as many medals? Well with 10 to 15x the population thats a great performance.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Those are the ones that end up being stoners.

8/10

"Dave's not here."

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What are you people, on dope?

—Mr. Hand

I am from Norway. It is the Olympic soon. This discussion is stupid.

And lose your house if you get sick.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

This pretty much sums it up. I'm not from Norway, but still.

Well this is a whole other argument...
The US has the lowest upward mobility in the OECD
The median wealth in Australia is over 300 000
The median wealth in the US approx 60 000

Our tax rates are only absurd to residents of a country that are far more capitilist biased than equality. The fact our medain wealth is much higher in simple terms does show it is not hurting us as much as an extremely capitilist economy. You guys see this as very socialist policy, but the fact is here people like me are seen as too conservative. Which is laughable in comparison to a US conservative. Perhaps the taxes allow the government to implment policy that enables upward mobility and wealth creation leading to better outcomes for all. Believe it or not the rich get richer too! Just not by standing on everyone else.

Edit: It is a myth we spend alot on our grass roots sports system. In fact our AIS was once the benchmark is now behind the curve. Apart from shortfalls of the number of opportunities being limited by class (it is also in Oz to a lesser extent). The US collegiate system is better.

Ah, the great American dream. Anyone can become rich/famous/powerful...but almost no one ever does because they have to start from such a long way back. It's like an illusionists trick. The US has a very strong caste system but everyone is taught to believe the exact opposite.

In Australia you are more likely to be torn down by those below you for being successful (referred to here as the "tall poppy syndrome") rather than deified. I am not sure that our system is necessarily better...

Yeh, The tall poppy syndrome over here annoys me. The very wealthy people I know work hard and are very civic minded.