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Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time
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FINALLY!

From their conference call:
"Our R&D investment in the Fitness marketplace continues to grow as we prepare for a number of product launches in the back half of 2013 and explore new product categories of the most anticipated new product categories is the Vector power meter which is expected to accelerate growth. Vector has entered mass production and we expect to deliver the product to retailers soon.

We are thrilled to finally cross the finish line with this new product and anticipate our customers will appreciate the unique features and value proposition that Vector brings to the cycling market."

- Pete


Luckily my over eating disorder is offset by my over exercising disorder
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]
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Good for them I suppose. Would have been more excited 3 years ago when I was actually hoping to buy one.

If the DCR review is good and if it proves quicker to swap between bikes than a crank (i.e. no time at all), and if there are reasonable assurances of durability in crashes or spills, then I'll certainly consider the Vector if my Quarq ever dies.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, I might have been interested 1.5 years ago when I decided not to wait and any longer and went with Powertap. Time to market: you snooze, you lose.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]
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This product is like a sasquatch or the loch ness monster.

I'm not giving them my tree-fiddy until I see it on the shelves!

I'm not really in the market but I think it's cool that it's finally ready for release.

__________________________

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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]
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You know what else came out of that conference call... my Garmin stock going up $2.50. :)

I've made good money on Garmin, now all of you, go buy their vector so I can retire early.

The Home of Advanced Running
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]
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Big-Pete wrote:
FINALLY!

we prepare for a number of product launches in the back half of 2013

Vector has entered mass production and we expect to deliver the product to retailers soon.

Finally what? Another promise that it will be availible within the next 6 months? Haven't they been doing this every 6 months for the last 3 years? Now if there was an exact date for sales to start, I would be less skeptical. I guess you could assume that "Mass Production" means they are serious.

Proud Member of Chris McDonald's 2018 Big Sexy Race Team "That which doesn't kill me, will only make me stronger"
Blog-Twitter-Instagram-Race Reports - 2018 Races: IM Florida 70.3, IM Raleigh 70.3, IM 70.3 World Championships - South Africa, IM North Carolina 70.3
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [bullshark] [ In reply to ]
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This seems higher than what has previously been discussed?
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [ZackCapets] [ In reply to ]
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ZackCapets wrote:
This product is like a sasquatch or the loch ness monster.

I'm not giving them my tree-fiddy until I see it on the shelves!

I'm not really in the market but I think it's cool that it's finally ready for release.

This. It has been delayed so many times that I wonder if it will actually ever make it to market. For the $1699 price tag, it better have some features to boast about that the Quarq doesn't have.

Bob
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [bobonker] [ In reply to ]
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Right / left power? Don't have to worry about crank bb compatibility across bike either.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]
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Like others, I was excited about this YEARS ago. I got tired of waiting and purchased from another company. We'll see if they actually hit this mark or not.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [bobonker] [ In reply to ]
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It's priced well. It was the start up company that said they could do it for so cheap. Garmin is a big name and people will buy it because of that. They aren't all sitting on ST learning about different powermeters. Also you don't really want to under cut everyone on price when people then may view it as an inferior product.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]
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I would actually be interested in it if Garmin ever produced a product that didn't die within 12-16 months. While their products have great features and sell well because of this, they have zero credibility when it comes to durability. Not sure how this plays out in this price range...
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [alexaqui] [ In reply to ]
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alexaqui wrote:
I would actually be interested in it if Garmin ever produced a product that didn't die within 12-16 months. While their products have great features and sell well because of this, they have zero credibility when it comes to durability. Not sure how this plays out in this price range...

I've had my 500 for 3 years and it's fallen off my bike numerous times at 20mph+ and has riden through more rain and dirt and crap that I hate to admit. It's tracked more than 20,000 miles on it. Still works like the day I got it.

My Strava | My Instagram | Summerville, SC | 35-39 AG | 4:41 (70.3), 10:05 (140.6) | 3x70.3, 1x140.6 | Cat 2 Cyclist
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Creatre] [ In reply to ]
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Creatre wrote:
alexaqui wrote:
I would actually be interested in it if Garmin ever produced a product that didn't die within 12-16 months. While their products have great features and sell well because of this, they have zero credibility when it comes to durability. Not sure how this plays out in this price range...


I've had my 500 for 3 years and it's fallen off my bike numerous times at 20mph+ and has riden through more rain and dirt and crap that I hate to admit. It's tracked more than 20,000 miles on it. Still works like the day I got it.

The 500 seems to be one of the few winners Garmin has ever produced in terms of product reliability. Every other Garmin device I've ever owned (310, 405, 800, Garmin Swim and 910) has gone back to Garmin for warranty replacement. The 310 went back multiple times, the Swim died within 6 weeks of getting it. My current 800 is about to die the same way the old went (USB charging port corrosion).

I like Garmin's, I will probably continue to buy them. But while I'm sure there are plenty of people who have had good experiences with their products, as a whole Garmin's Into Sports products are known for very high failure rates and an absolutely dismal track record for firmware issues.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [deh20] [ In reply to ]
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deh20 wrote:
Yeah, I might have been interested 1.5 years ago when I decided not to wait and any longer and went with Powertap. Time to market: you snooze, you lose.

Pretty much this. I gave up and went with a Quarq.

Kinda like the Microsoft Surface. Late to the game, nothing to really differentiate itself from the established competitors.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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tgarson wrote:
My current 800 is about to die the same way the old went (USB charging port corrosion).

Have you tried giving the port some WD-40 and putting the cable in and out a couple of times to loosen the grit/rust? Worked on my Edge 500.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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tgarson wrote:
The 500 seems to be one of the few winners Garmin has ever produced in terms of product reliability. Every other Garmin device I've ever owned (310, 405, 800, Garmin Swim and 910) has gone back to Garmin for warranty replacement. The 310 went back multiple times, the Swim died within 6 weeks of getting it. My current 800 is about to die the same way the old went (USB charging port corrosion).

I like Garmin's, I will probably continue to buy them. But while I'm sure there are plenty of people who have had good experiences with their products, as a whole Garmin's Into Sports products are known for very high failure rates and an absolutely dismal track record for firmware issues.

I've got a 500 that is proving to be indestructible. My girlfriend's 410cx has survived numerous knocks and immersion that's it's not specced for (to be fair, the first one she got didn't work out of the box and was replaced very quickly on warranty). Everyone I know who has a Garmin has had good life out of it. The most flaky sports electronics/GPS product I've had the misfortune to own is the Timex Global Trainer. I wish I'd spent the extra for the 310 or 910.

Best (n=1) case of Garmin durability is my co-worker's old 305 -- the old pin mounts for the Garmin bike computers were shockingly bad and the pin broke during a road race. He lost the 305 and wen't back to look for it after the race with no luck. Shortly aftwerwards the town was evacuated due to forest fires and after we returned to town someone found his Garmin and returned it (via the local MTB email list). The case is slightly heat damaged, but the unit still works and had his data on it.
That's right - about 2 months in the great outdoors, surviving a forest fire, rain and flash flooding.

Saying they have zero cred for durability is overstepping the mark slightly.

----------------------------------
http://ironvision.blogspot.com ; @drSteve1663
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [link5485] [ In reply to ]
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Quarq provides L/R power now (granted it's "imputed" someway rather than calculated independently). I *thought* I was really imbalanced... turns out, not to be the case. I guess my usual 50/50 balance, sometimes 49/51, could be skewed by my "pulling" up on my right leg, but I kinda doubt it.

I suspect switching between bikes will be a bit of a PITA. Having said that... the flexibility on cranks/BBs and wheels does present potential advantages over the leading systems on the market now. I won't be rushig out to buy one... don't have a need, but if real-world experience is good, then I'd consider it for the reasons I cited.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [alexaqui] [ In reply to ]
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alexaqui wrote:
I would actually be interested in it if Garmin ever produced a product that didn't die within 12-16 months. While their products have great features and sell well because of this, they have zero credibility when it comes to durability. Not sure how this plays out in this price range...

I'm still using a Garmin Forerunner 305 that I purchased the first week they came out in 2006. It still works perfectly after 7 years even holding a decent charge on the original battery. Some of the best money I ever spent went to this unit.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [drsteve] [ In reply to ]
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drsteve wrote:
Saying they have zero cred for durability is overstepping the mark slightly.

Well that's fortunate since I never said that. I said they have a poor track record for quality. Obviously they don't have a 100% failure rate because that's absurd. Also plenty of Garmin devices that have been hanging in there forever, lots of 305's still kicking. Just as obviously, the fact that I've had so many units fail is no statistical proof that Garmin as a whole as quality issues. But the counter point of citing one specific unit that has lasted forever has no more merit, ignoring the fact that even in your case you got one that was DOA.

However, to say that they don't have quality issues would be not be supported by the many threads on this and every other forum about bricked Garmin's and firmware issues. By most reports, it was in fact durability / quality issues that have chiefly been responsible for delaying the Vector for going on 4 years now. The fact that they feel they have been addressed is a good sign, however I would not be surprised in the least if Garmin had insisted for a much higher MTBF on the Vector than they may concede on some of their lower end products. Warrantying refurbished head units that sell for a few hundred is one thing, having to constantly warranty $1600 products is quite another.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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tgarson wrote:
I like Garmin's, I will probably continue to buy them. But while I'm sure there are plenty of people who have had good experiences with their products, as a whole Garmin's Into Sports products are known for very high failure rates and an absolutely dismal track record for firmware issues.
Known to whom? What do you think their failure rate is? .1%/yr, 1%/yr or 10%/yr.

You can't scale your n=1, anecdotal experience, to their whole business. A company generally doesn't maintain a dominant industry position with high profit margins by selling products with a very high failure rate. Your perception may be clouded by reading numerous stories on the internet of unsatisfied customers without the balance provided by the thousands of happy contented customers who don't usually write about their product experiences.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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Retro, I remember years and years ago Garmin were going to make power pedals like these.


If you are sure you will fail, or convinced you will succeed, you are probably right.....
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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sciguy wrote:
alexaqui wrote:
I would actually be interested in it if Garmin ever produced a product that didn't die within 12-16 months. While their products have great features and sell well because of this, they have zero credibility when it comes to durability. Not sure how this plays out in this price range...


I'm still using a Garmin Forerunner 305 that I purchased the first week they came out in 2006. It still works perfectly after 7 years even holding a decent charge on the original battery. Some of the best money I ever spent went to this unit.

Hugh

This forum is loaded with examples of people with very different experiences. The Garmin forums are out of control with such posts.

I'm the owner of several Garmin devices and will continue to buy them but even I will freely admit that they have some of the worst quality control -- consistently terrible both in hardware and software -- that I have ever encountered in my life.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
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have you ever had a microsoft product?
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [denali2001] [ In reply to ]
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That was nearly too easy.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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For every person saying, "well I was interested two years ago" there's a handful of people who are interested NOW. Triathlon is only growing (currently) it's not like they're coming into a dying market and just introducing a product that is a piece of technology on the way out. There's a HUGE demand for power meters, they are bringing something new to the table, I venture to say, the product will do well and many of you all will hop on board.

Internet critics though as per usual.

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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [justarunner] [ In reply to ]
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I agree. I have a Quarq on my TT bike and am happy with it but my road bike has a PT hub. I'd love to upgrade to a different gear (mid compact) and add some Flo 30's to it but I don't want to give up my power. So...perhaps Vector it is.

justarunner wrote:
For every person saying, "well I was interested two years ago" there's a handful of people who are interested NOW. Triathlon is only growing (currently) it's not like they're coming into a dying market and just introducing a product that is a piece of technology on the way out. There's a HUGE demand for power meters, they are bringing something new to the table, I venture to say, the product will do well and many of you all will hop on board.

Internet critics though as per usual.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [denali2001] [ In reply to ]
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denali2001 wrote:
have you ever had a microsoft product?
Of course. Why? I use Windows 7 and Office 2003. Actually, I was happy with an earlier version of Office. Very reliable for me.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
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i have the 310xt, 500, 210.

all work flawlessly and have recorded many many miles, have been through mud, sand, water and had no issues. i think their product is good quality.

regarding the pedals though at first it was supposed to undercut quark now with 1700 a pop uhm i think i will just go with stages.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [trix99] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure that's the US price. It might be Australian. Let's wait for the official Garmin announcement.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [trix99] [ In reply to ]
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I went with Stages so I could easily swap from bike to bike (all have 175mm Shimano crank).

BUT if I want a new bike with a different BB standard, I'm out of luck. I can't look at a Shimano or Cervelo because of the BB standard not working with my crank (may be able to use an adaptor).

Pedals seem a lot more "future proof". That said, I'm not sure it would be any faster to move two pedals than it is to move the left Shimano crank arm.

/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]
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I'm waiting to see them and hear the reviews. I'm not in any rush so can continue to wait awhile. As I have a Computrainer, I get power from that for training but what I'm missing is to know how much power I'm putting out on the road so that I can "ride by power". Add to that multiple bikes and multiple wheels and a pedal based system sounds really great. But, time will tell.

BC Don
Pain is temporary, not giving it your all lasts all Winter.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [BCDon] [ In reply to ]
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Oh and where is my HUD in my Goggles for swimming. I want to have a display that paints a big yellow band (via the HUD) on the bottom of the lake so I don't run into the paddle boarder (again). And I'd like it to give me my pace along with a course map and where my buddies (who have the same unit) are.

BC Don
Pain is temporary, not giving it your all lasts all Winter.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]
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It seems odd that they're entering mass production, yet the Garmin team doesn't appear to be using them. Perhaps the execs on the call have a more liberal definition of 'entering mass production' than I'm used to.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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tgarson wrote:
drsteve wrote:

Saying they have zero cred for durability is overstepping the mark slightly.


Well that's fortunate since I never said that.


I said they have a poor track record for quality. ...

My mistake. That was alexaqui ... I guess I conflated your posts in my mind while I was replying. (Sorry)

alexaqui wrote:
I would actually be interested in it if Garmin ever produced a product that didn't die within 12-16 months. While their products have great features and sell well because of this, they have zero credibility when it comes to durability. Not sure how this plays out in this price range...

You said
tgarson wrote:
as a whole Garmin's Into Sports products are known for very high failure rates and an absolutely dismal track record for firmware issues.


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By most reports, it was in fact durability / quality issues that have chiefly been responsible for delaying the Vector for going on 4 years now.

Since the Vector hasn't been released, this isn't evidence that Garmin products have durability and quality issues. It's evidence that an unreleased product did, and that that is why is remained unreleased. Essentially, it's arguing that Garmin are striving for decent QC.

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The fact that they feel they have been addressed is a good sign, however I would not be surprised in the least if Garmin had insisted for a much higher MTBF on the Vector than they may concede on some of their lower end products. Warrantying refurbished head units that sell for a few hundred is one thing, having to constantly warranty $1600 products is quite another.

And maybe that's the reason. Although I still think that even going so far as saying that
tgarson wrote:

as a whole Garmin's Into Sports products are known for very high failure rates and an absolutely dismal track record for firmware issues.

is overstepping the mark slightly. (I agree that Garmin don't have perfect QC, but I think it's decent and they honour their warranties. They're certainly above average in their niche, IMO.)




Anyway, I'm actually pretty excited to see these come to market. The question is whether to buy the Quarq Elsa BB30 now and the Vector later (I have mixed BB standards across my race bikes), or whether to hold off. Something tells me there will always be a good used market for Elsa cranksets, even once Vector is out (and hopefully proven).

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http://ironvision.blogspot.com ; @drSteve1663
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [drsteve] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, I did say they have no credibility, because every one of their products I have owned has bit an unfortunate and early end at some point. This forum is loaded with people who are looking to upgrade because their previous watch has died. How about their HR monitor straps (the soft ones)? We have discussions about how to get around those problems using polar straps. As to the original response to me, I'm glad you are okay with your Garmin 500 flying off of your bike multiple times. My mount snapped (Garmin had to redesign the mount because the first design would break) and launched my 705 through the air. Yep, $150 down the drain for a repair. My FR60 bit the bullet after 14 months of light use. The footpod died after 9 months. The HR strap also died before the watch did. In contrast, my Polar equipment from the late 90's STILL works. I use my old HRM straps with my computrainer and they surprisingly still work.

That's my perspective and after seeing countless threads start out with "My Garmin XXX watch died and I need a new one..."

I still use my 705. It's fine. I am super hesitant to buy anything from Garmin given my past experiences.
Last edited by: alexaqui: Jul 31, 13 16:02
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [bullshark] [ In reply to ]
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That is a pretty hefty price tag for something that is unproven. I will stick with my quarqs.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [alexaqui] [ In reply to ]
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My Edge 500 hasn't flown off the mount multiple times. That was Creatre's reply to you.
Yes, the old mounts were prone to the pin eventually snapping - hence the re-design which is a great mount system (I've only ever crashed with it on the MTB and haven't lost it there).

And yeah, the Garmin soft strap is kinda notorious for dying (though I've been fairly lucky there). But the electronics (it's the straps, not the transmitters) are typically solid. All the threads? Well, people who don't have a problem don't generally write about it on a forum. Those who do will often write about it more than once.

I'm hesitant to buy it because it's a brand-new, high price item that's untested. Really though, I'm hesitant on anything that costs more than one day's pay. I actually trust Garmin to have done a decent job and ironed out any major issues before launching.

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http://ironvision.blogspot.com ; @drSteve1663
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [drsteve] [ In reply to ]
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Fair enough. I freely concede that I have selection bias. I own or have owned a lot of Garmin products and have had to warranty most of them, and most of my friends who use them have had to send theirs back as well. I don't ship a lot of packages, so it seems to me that any time I'm at the post office it's to send something to Olathe KS (garmin repair center).

As a result of the issues I've had, I've spent a lot more time on the Garmin support forums, which via selection bias are full of other people who are having issues. I've also spent a fair amount of time on the various threads on these forums for various Garmin issues, which again are chock full of other people having similar issues. Similar for other forums.

Based on these experiences alone it is indeed not accurate to conclude that Garmin has a "very high" failure rate, because that's just not an objective quantifiable statement. However, the Timex Global Trainer aside (which I have no experience with), I have a very solid hunch that if you actually did a study of Garmin sport product failure rates they would certainly exceed industry standards for consumer electronics as a whole. I'd bet by quite a margin, but perhaps that's not entirely fair since we're talking about sports products which see harder use than consumer electronics as a whole.

Now this entire tangent aside, I by no means want to see the Vector fail. I would love it to succeed and definitely would consider buying one in the future. However, others can call it pessimism, but there is plenty of objective cause for skepticism in any and all promises of an impending release date of the Vector at this point, we've literally been hearing promises of release for years. The concerns about reliability are very legitimate in my experience with Garmin products, which coupled with my own situation of already owning a capable power meter make it quite simple to wait out the initial offering, see how well it is received and holds up for the first 6mo-year and then reevaluate purchasing one.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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tgarson wrote:
Based on these experiences alone it is indeed not accurate to conclude that Garmin has a "very high" failure rate, because that's just not an objective quantifiable statement.

Even with this being ST, land of "data is king", I'd still be comfortable making statements like that based on my experiences and reading. Not like posting here is a news outlet and studies must be cited to make a statement.

Like, the Swimsense is a hunk of junk.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Toby] [ In reply to ]
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Toby wrote:
tgarson wrote:
Based on these experiences alone it is indeed not accurate to conclude that Garmin has a "very high" failure rate, because that's just not an objective quantifiable statement.


Even with this being ST, land of "data is king", I'd still be comfortable making statements like that based on my experiences and reading. Not like posting here is a news outlet and studies must be cited to make a statement.

Like, the Swimsense is a hunk of junk.

Funny you should mention the Swimsense. I had that too... and yep, it died about a year in. After that I got the Garmin swim... which died almost immediately and was warrantied. My second one is hanging in there though at least.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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tgarson wrote:
Toby wrote:
tgarson wrote:
Based on these experiences alone it is indeed not accurate to conclude that Garmin has a "very high" failure rate, because that's just not an objective quantifiable statement.


Even with this being ST, land of "data is king", I'd still be comfortable making statements like that based on my experiences and reading. Not like posting here is a news outlet and studies must be cited to make a statement.

Like, the Swimsense is a hunk of junk.


Funny you should mention the Swimsense. I had that too... and yep, it died about a year in. After that I got the Garmin swim... which died almost immediately and was warrantied. My second one is hanging in there though at least.

My Swimsense lasted three months. So did the warranty replacement. Then I gave up.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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Hugh, same here. I have a 305 & it has been tossed, submerged in water, kicked & dropped so many times...still run great. Had a few issues about 2 years ago with the buttons not working but it seemed to have fixed itself.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Rocky M] [ In reply to ]
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fwiw imo my garmin 500 is one of the best bits of kit i have - prior to this no device did whaf i wanted.

i'd buy the pedals - but i'd be nervous about buying the first iteration of them.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [zamm0] [ In reply to ]
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"Something is future proofed? Quick, introduce a new pedal axle standard to f*ck this up!" - Every big bike company right now.

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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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I agree that they have some pretty bad QC issues, but I'd also have to commend them on their customer support. I know, I know... let me get my flame suit on first. In my experiences, they have been quick to replace products, even giving me a handful of out-of-warranty courtesy replacements when I had just passed the warranty mark by a handful of days. With that said, I'd rather them invest more in their R&D and QC to ensure the products that are released to market never have to go back to Kansas. I hate having that feeling that I'm a beta tester whenever purchasing a new Garmin product. Have been on the fence about getting a 910xt, but firmware issues noted around the web has made me reluctant. It's also interesting to see that the 810 and 510 are merely incremental upgrades to the 800 and 500 respectively. Maybe Garmin started to realize that they shouldn't overreach during product releases. I guess the silver lining with the Vector is that since it's taken a bajillion years to come to market (and I'll still consider it vaporware until it's on the shelves in my LBS), they may have reversed their normal practices and have actually created a robust product that won't have too many issues upon release.



But I'm still looking to pick up an Elsa or a Riken.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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tgarson wrote:
Good for them I suppose. Would have been more excited 3 years ago when I was actually hoping to buy one.

If the DCR review is good and if it proves quicker to swap between bikes than a crank (i.e. no time at all), and if there are reasonable assurances of durability in crashes or spills, then I'll certainly consider the Vector if my Quarq ever dies.

x2

welcome to yesterday...

The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [drsteve] [ In reply to ]
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drsteve wrote:
My Edge 500 hasn't flown off the mount multiple times. That was Creatre's reply to you.
Yes, the old mounts were prone to the pin eventually snapping - hence the re-design which is a great mount system (I've only ever crashed with it on the MTB and haven't lost it there).

Just FYI, I said it's fallen off my bike multiple times, but I never mentioned it was because of the mount system. I've never had it come disengaged from the mount. It's only gone flying when I've tested a self made makeshift mount for my TT bike and my own stupidity trying to get it out of my jersey pocket. Either way it's solid.

My Strava | My Instagram | Summerville, SC | 35-39 AG | 4:41 (70.3), 10:05 (140.6) | 3x70.3, 1x140.6 | Cat 2 Cyclist
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [camaleon] [ In reply to ]
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camaleon wrote:
tgarson wrote:
Good for them I suppose. Would have been more excited 3 years ago when I was actually hoping to buy one.


x2

welcome to yesterday...


Its only "yesterday"'s technology if there is a better, more competitive product. For ME, there is no better theoretical solution out on the market right now:
Polar Pedals =
1) cant get power data on a GPS unit
2) more expensive
3) PITA to calibrate and switch between bikes.

Quarq/SRM =
1) I have a proprietary crank on my TT bike, therefore no option for crank based power (and it is the stiffest crank ever made, so I am not planning on giving that up)
2) ...But even if I DID have the option of switching cranks, I have a standard setup on the TT bike and a compact on one of my road bikes - I'd like to not have to buy multple power meters or have to switch my chainrings in addition to switching cranks - that would suck.

Stages =
1) every issue with Quarq
2) accuracy is lower on the stages

Power tap =
1) unless I buy 2 wheels, I am stuck with one wheel for both training and racing / tris and road races (no disc allowed in a road race you know). Therefore if I want to race with power in triathlon with a disc, I need a fumble with a wheel cover (1+hr) and have to live with lower aero benefit and lower quality bearings than my super-9 has.
2) If I want to train with power and race with a real disc, I have to forgo the race power and switch to cork brake pads (not a big deal, but still a pain)
3) My tri bike looks stoopid with an alloy training wheel on the back and an 808 on the front.

So the Vectors are not "Yesterday's Technology" because there is nothing like it that exists right now. The one caveat to my perspective is that these benefits are in theory. Obviously the performance and durability of the actual product will determine whether its worth the $1500 price tag. Speaking of which, I haven't seen anything about pricing other than the Garmin website which says $1500. The $1699 figure is from a guy who appears to be trying to take advantage of his anticipated short supply/pre-order buzz and make an extra $199 at the cost of consumers. [Edit: Based on the post following this one, I may stand corrected here. The $1500 reference is no longer on the Garmin website, but I have not seen anything official that says $1699 is the MSRP]

Those are my reasons for being excited for the last 3 years and still being excited today ...

PS - In my family I we have two 4 year old FR405's and a 910xt and all three have functioned well - somebody said it, no one starts threads about garmins that work the way they are supposed to (which is the vast majority), only threads about problems. I have also heard that Garmin is pretty great when it comes to replacing broken product. And for gods sake, we are kicking the crap out of these units, you have to expect some failure some of the time.
I think I am going to go start a thread that says I love my garmin so we have an offset to all of these people who post about problems.

My $0.02

- Pete


Luckily my over eating disorder is offset by my over exercising disorder
Last edited by: Big-Pete: Aug 1, 13 11:16
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]
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price is 1699$. That is official price for the vector set. not someone trying to up the stack.

.

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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and now this makes that pricing seem a little extreme...
http://velonews.competitor.com/...-price-by-510_297666

- Pete


Luckily my over eating disorder is offset by my over exercising disorder
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]
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Big-Pete wrote:
and now this makes that pricing seem a little extreme...
http://velonews.competitor.com/...-price-by-510_297666

$789 for a G3 hub is a pretty compelling deal. The whole training versus racing wheel debate gets a little trickier when you consider that you can get 2 G3 hubs for less than one Vector or Quarq. However, you still have to build them into wheels, and you of course don't have the portability.

Assuming there aren't any major issues with durability or wear with these pedal based systems, then I think they're definitely the way of the future. Part of me still thinks that I'd still rather have the versatility and portability of 1 system like the Vector versus having 2 hubs laced into wheels.

However, that would all change real quick if I could get the hub into the right wheel. Lace a G3 into a FLO30 for example. There you've got a killer all around wheel, then put a disc cover on it for racing and a deeper carbon wheel up front-- forget about it.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
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Supposedly my shop will have them on Aug. 8th.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]
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Heard the Polar Pedals will be Bluetooth compatible and have a new completely new head unit to pair with in the very near future. That plus the known quality of Look would possible make that a better value than the Vector.

Will echo and I am not necessarily a Polar fan but there stuff works forever my Garmin's all bit the big one and had to be warrantied.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]
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Big-Pete wrote:
and now this makes that pricing seem a little extreme...
http://velonews.competitor.com/...-price-by-510_297666

i've been holding off buying a power meter because i train + race on 3 different bikes (that's a lot of wheelsets), but saw that and thought "now i would buy powertap."

too late, though, as it would cost a mint to rebuild 4 sets of wheels (3 training, 1 racing - and i don't even think you can rebuild a stinger disc).
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [tegra] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure if the $1699 will hold that long. Garmin products are rarely discounted in Australia - and there are websites that are selling for $1499 plus a $150 voucher. Typically we pay more than anyone for cycling gear down here too...

http://99bikes.com.au/...eV3rgCFSEl4godIFEARw
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [lmbasell] [ In reply to ]
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lmbasell wrote:
Not sure if the $1699 will hold that long. Garmin products are rarely discounted in Australia - and there are websites that are selling for $1499 plus a $150 voucher. Typically we pay more than anyone for cycling gear down here too...

http://99bikes.com.au/...eV3rgCFSEl4godIFEARw


Not just cycling gear - pretty much everything judging by our last visit. It's one of the two worst things about Australia...that, and the flies :-)
Last edited by: zamm0: Aug 2, 13 2:06
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [lmbasell] [ In reply to ]
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lmbasell wrote:
Not sure if the $1699 will hold that long. Garmin products are rarely discounted in Australia - and there are websites that are selling for $1499 plus a $150 voucher. Typically we pay more than anyone for cycling gear down here too...

http://99bikes.com.au/...eV3rgCFSEl4godIFEARw

With an MSRP of $1699, I think tht we'll see many of the discounters all over the world pricing these at $1500 out the door. Perhaps Garmin is counting on this. Whatever the case, it's nice to see the competition heating up in the industry. It would appear that this has finally started to drive prices in a more favorable direction..........think yesterday's PowerTap announcment and recent Quarq upgrades while holding their price point. All good news for power meter users.

YMMV,

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [lmbasell] [ In reply to ]
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i'm guessing that the powertap price reduction caught garmin off guard and now second guessing their MSRP
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [samoots] [ In reply to ]
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Well, it's interesting, we've arguably hit the point where there enough competitors in the market where price discipline starts to break down. IIRC, the tipping point is generally around five. So for power meters, we've got SRM, Quarq, Powertap, Stages, P2Max, Look and now Garmin. Presumably, many of those are more than breakeven on their initial investments and have gotten much greater manufacturing efficiency/lower COGs. Certainly seems to be the case for Power tap.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [samoots] [ In reply to ]
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samoots wrote:
i'm guessing that the powertap price reduction caught garmin off guard and now second guessing their MSRP

I was thinking the same thing...I posted in another thread, wondering if it would cause them to re-think their MSRP...

With the cost of PT that low, you could almost buy two PT for the price of the Vector and not have to worry about changing the pedals...
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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Garmin as taken a huge hit on the discounter market. There is now at least in north america a inforced MSRP. Within the past 3 months, they have closed most of the discounter and any shop that dosnt respect pricing lose there garmin rights.

no way we will see discount on the pedals. We have a sold out status on those for the next few months. The reality is, people see those as very easy to swap, easier and less intimidating than any other powermeter on the market and it s also the easiest powermeter to travel with. Can be use on compact crank and normal crank. mtb crank etc.

in term of simplicity, it is on it s own. Now the big question is, how much testing as been done on it and how smooth will it be at the start.

.

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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I was a complete supporter of the Metrigear Vector a couple of years ago. I liked the price point, the technology seemed like the best option and in the end, it was more for less.

Since then, Garmin stepped it, the product has been delayed, and the price almost doubled. Not sure exact, but Metrigear had targeted around $800 initially, might have been closer to $1000, but was in that range.

Since then, I went PowerTap, got a sweet deal where was like 40% off, and basically only have power on my training wheelset, but still was a cheap option and while the Mavic OpenPro may not be the best wheelset, it is close to bullet proof.

Since then, the Vector Price has come close to double, I have been through 4, yes 4 Garmin 910XTs (waiting on 5th) so not only is the proposition now either even money, or Vector being more expensive, I have doubts about the durability of the Vector, not to mention the larger potential for crash damage. With the PowerTaps, especially when one can have multiple wheelsets for the same price, it greatly minimizes not only downtime, but is a cheaper option.

Maybe the Vector and Quarq / SRM provide a little more data like L/R, but cost wise the Power Tap seems like a no brainer.. Something tells me there will be seasonal sales as well, and I will be looking to have my 808 relaced and replace the hub and still be cheaper than the vector and have power on both training and race rides (with the exception of my disc)
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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Jonnyo,

Thanks for the information on Garmin's stance on discounters. Do you know if the Vector will work with very short cranks like 155mm? That certainly would make them interesting to an even broader group of enthusiasts.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]
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It might be the stiffest crank ever made but I'd be willing to bet that for 99.999% of people here...crank stiffness is irrelevant. If it isn't made out of rubber then it's stiff enough for what we do.

Big-Pete wrote:
...and it is the stiffest crank ever made, so I am not planning on giving that up)
quote]
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [gregf83] [ In reply to ]
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gregf83 wrote:
It seems odd that they're entering mass production, yet the Garmin team doesn't appear to be using them. Perhaps the execs on the call have a more liberal definition of 'entering mass production' than I'm used to.

I agree, if they are so close, why wasn't a big showing/debut made at Le Tour?
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [tgrunnin] [ In reply to ]
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there is no point in doing a ''big show'' intreoduction for those pedals. People know about them. for once, garmin was aware that we needed to be cautious about making sure we have stock before releasing them. Making sure all glitch/production issue, stock issue would be taken care so we can support the product as it comes out next week.

So, team garmin wasn't a high priority in this case, make sure the product work and produce as intended for the mass market was the key point.

For those coming to challenge penticton, come over to the Bike Barn and we will be happy to have you try on a pair and see for yourself.

.

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [tgrunnin] [ In reply to ]
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tgrunnin wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
It seems odd that they're entering mass production, yet the Garmin team doesn't appear to be using them. Perhaps the execs on the call have a more liberal definition of 'entering mass production' than I'm used to.


I agree, if they are so close, why wasn't a big showing/debut made at Le Tour?

Think this is sort of like the 910XT which seemed a bit rushed out the door. I think there are still issues with the Vector and it is at the cusp of being one of those products that never makes it to market and Garmin is finally at the "well we have sunk all this money" "lets get it out the door"

I think some will be pleased with it, but expecting a lot of people to have issues and it to the stability of the 910XT (i.e. lot of failures) compared to the 305.

The 310xt I think was a solid middle of the road device with one major design flaw being the screen not being recessed enough and not having enough protection.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Maui5150] [ In reply to ]
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Maui5150 wrote:
I was a complete supporter of the Metrigear Vector a couple of years ago. I liked the price point, the technology seemed like the best option and in the end, it was more for less.

Since then, Garmin stepped it, the product has been delayed, and the price almost doubled. Not sure exact, but Metrigear had targeted around $800 initially, might have been closer to $1000, but was in that range.

Since then, I went PowerTap, got a sweet deal where was like 40% off, and basically only have power on my training wheelset, but still was a cheap option and while the Mavic OpenPro may not be the best wheelset, it is close to bullet proof.

Since then, the Vector Price has come close to double, I have been through 4, yes 4 Garmin 910XTs (waiting on 5th) so not only is the proposition now either even money, or Vector being more expensive, I have doubts about the durability of the Vector, not to mention the larger potential for crash damage. With the PowerTaps, especially when one can have multiple wheelsets for the same price, it greatly minimizes not only downtime, but is a cheaper option.

Maybe the Vector and Quarq / SRM provide a little more data like L/R, but cost wise the Power Tap seems like a no brainer.. Something tells me there will be seasonal sales as well, and I will be looking to have my 808 relaced and replace the hub and still be cheaper than the vector and have power on both training and race rides (with the exception of my disc)

I've gone through NINE Garmin 910xts and one Garmin swim. Would I drop 1600 on something from Garmin? No, not a chance.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [ddave] [ In reply to ]
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It has been frustrating to say the least. My last 910xt lasted 10 days, if that. Since it was a replacement, decided to do the firmware upgrade sooner than later to see if I ran into barometer/altimeter issues sooner rather than later since they started swapping with refurbs instead of new units with shorter warranties... Update failed and then got the "software missing" message.

At least with the 500, I could plug in a USB and force a load of the firmware. Would have been nice if the Garmin allowed this to happen with the recharging clip the same way, but sadly it doesn't.

But yeah. Given my last year with Garmin, I am leaning to waiting a year or more to see how a product hashes out.

That is not to say they are all bad. I am sure there are a LARGE number of people who have had solid luck and no issues from day one, but I think the rate of failure is a lot higher than compared to models from earlier years.

My mileage may be different, but zero issues with my 305, and the person I sold mine too has had no issues and still going strong.
My 310xt was solid. Not sure who has it now, but never skipped a beat
910xt.... My thinking is they should sell them in pairs, provide the back-up to begin with and then that way you are not SOL and waiting for the unit to be repaired or swapped.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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What do you mean by 'huge hit'? Even the discounters would have paid Garmin the same price as anyone else. Maybe you meant to say other retailers of Garmin products that are not 'discounters' took a huge hit. Regardless, Garmin has a right to protect the perception of their brand by selecting retail outlets carefully. In the courts, price discounting has been proven to affect brand perception. Garmin can't dictate minimum selling prices, but they CAN dictate minimum advertised prices. I suppose they have cut off some of the internet based discounters to protect their brand. OK, their choice. But at $1,699, they are going to have a problem with alternative power options. This is coming from a guy that wanted to switch to the Vector pedals, but for that much I'll just stick with the PT, thank-you. The earlier comment noting that you could buy two PT hubs for the cost of one set of Vector pedals rings true for me. However, I don't ride my tri-bike too much anymore since I just cycle now.

Regarding your comments about the pedals being easier to swap, keep in mind a lot of people don't need to swap. Besides, I can swap my rear wheel off of one bike onto another faster than I can swap pedals. And, I don't understand what you mean about Vector being less intimidating. For the record, my PT has never scared me...not even once. A lot of times, I have looked back there at it and it has never made a mean face at me or anything. ;-) I can also use the PT with any crank, just like the Vector pedals. I'll agree that they are easy to travel with if you are going somewhere to ride another bike. If you are packing your own bike, well, what's the difference between packing your rear wheel with a PT hub and packing your Vector pedals?

I know you are looking forward to offering this great new product to your customers, but I just wanted you to see the proposition from a customer's perspective. At that price point, I don't see Garmin selling too many after the initial early adopters. Personally, I'd be a buyer at around $1,000 or $1,200 or so provided they didn't have a bunch of new product glitches.

JMHO,
Greg

If you are a Canuck that engages in gratuitous bashing of the US, you are probably on my Iggy List. So, save your self a bunch of typing a response unless you also feel the need to gratuitously bash me. If so, have fun.
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f___ things up" - Barack Obama, 2020
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [gregtryin] [ In reply to ]
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I would like to see some way to "lock" these pedals into the crank arms. I'm guessing any pedal with the "Garmin" label on them will become a popular item to steal once people realize what they are.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [jnnak] [ In reply to ]
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Cable lock through the toe loops... unless the thief has a set of bolt cutters or an appropriate set of cartridge spanners. The thing is, if you had a bike with ANY power meter then would you leave it in a place where theft was a likely problem? As is being discussed here ad infinitum, cranks and rear wheels can be removed nearly as quickly (or more quickly) as a set of pedals.

Less is more.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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>Garmin as taken a huge hit on the discounter market. There is now at least in north america a inforced MSRP. Within the past 3 months, they have closed most of the discounter and any shop that >dosnt respect pricing lose there garmin rights.

I'm usually not petty enough to point out grammar errors, but *damn*!
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [trail] [ In reply to ]
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sorry my friend but english is my second language. I m not here as a official representative but simply a passionate of our sport. I m sure if i write in french, there wont be a single mistake. but i m pretty sure everyone got the main idea of my message in frenglish...

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [HomerJSimpson] [ In reply to ]
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HomerJSimpson wrote:
Heard the Polar Pedals will be Bluetooth compatible and have a new completely new head unit to pair with in the very near future. That plus the known quality of Look would possible make that a better value than the Vector.

Will echo and I am not necessarily a Polar fan but there stuff works forever my Garmin's all bit the big one and had to be warrantied.

I have owned multiple kinds of Timex, Polar, and Garmin devices, and I have had issues with all of them at some point. However, the only issue I ever had with a Garmin was a firmware update that went bad and ended up with a 310XT that was essentially dead. Contacted Garmin and they sent me a new one, even though it was past the warranty, since it was their firmware update that went bad. While I was waiting, I pulled out my FR305 that was 5-6 years old and it worked like a champ.

Spot

___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [jnnak] [ In reply to ]
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jnnak wrote:
I would like to see some way to "lock" these pedals into the crank arms. I'm guessing any pedal with the "Garmin" label on them will become a popular item to steal once people realize what they are.
I've never carried a lock for my bike which has an SRM and Garmin 800 mounted on it. If I were a thief I would take the whole bike not mess around trying to remove some fancy pedals.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [TH3_FRB] [ In reply to ]
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TH3_FRB wrote:
It might be the stiffest crank ever made but I'd be willing to bet that for 99.999% of people here...crank stiffness is irrelevant. If it isn't made out of rubber then it's stiff enough for what we do.

Big-Pete wrote:
...and it is the stiffest crank ever made, so I am not planning on giving that up)
quote]

You obviously don't weigh as much as I do!

- Pete


Luckily my over eating disorder is offset by my over exercising disorder
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Post deleted by Lauren Goss [ In reply to ]
Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]
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The vector is out!

_____________________________________________

Website/Blog|Lauren Goss Racing |Follow me @lauren_goss
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Lauren Goss] [ In reply to ]
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wow, I really regret not holding out... just didn't have the discipline or will power I guess. What will I do with 7 years of accurate, consistent SRM power data from thousands of hours of training and racing? Oh well.

Lauren Goss wrote:
The vector is out!

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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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I know right. All those stage race adventures where I punched above my weight by perfect TT pacing with my powertap the last 3 years I coulda saved my money.


ericM40-44 wrote:
wow, I really regret not holding out... just didn't have the discipline or will power I guess. What will I do with 7 years of accurate, consistent SRM power data from thousands of hours of training and racing? Oh well.

Lauren Goss wrote:
The vector is out!



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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ericM40-44 wrote:
wow, I really regret not holding out... just didn't have the discipline or will power I guess. What will I do with 7 years of accurate, consistent SRM power data from thousands of hours of training and racing? Oh well.

Lauren Goss wrote:
The vector is out!

not to mention that on DC "review" stages at $699 matches pretty evenly with quarq/pt/vector...

The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Ok this is some goofey logic if I ever heard it. It is like saying you don't want a P5 because your P3 has been serving you well for 8 yrs. It is the latest toy. It has some interesting benefits and looks, from 24 hrs worth of data, to be a solid offering. The real question is it worth $900 more than a Stages or $700 more than a powertap with an alloy wheelset?

p.s. I realize that I am stretching it a bit with the P5 vs. P3 comparison because Cervelo provided data from the get go that the P5 was aerodynamically faster, but I don't think it is any more of a stretch than your logic.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [pyrahna] [ In reply to ]
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pyrahna wrote:
Ok this is some goofey logic if I ever heard it. It is like saying you don't want a P5 because your P3 has been serving you well for 8 yrs. It is the latest toy. It has some interesting benefits and looks, from 24 hrs worth of data, to be a solid offering. The real question is it worth $900 more than a Stages or $700 more than a powertap with an alloy wheelset?

p.s. I realize that I am stretching it a bit with the P5 vs. P3 comparison because Cervelo provided data from the get go that the P5 was aerodynamically faster, but I don't think it is any more of a stretch than your logic.

Yea, I'm not sure "waiting" for it is the right idea. I know I wasn't really at all in the market for a powermeter several years ago, whereas I'm at least considering the possibility of one in the near future. For me, this would actually be my cheapest option because even Stages I would have to buy a whole new crankset for one of my bikes (which do not have the same BB...)
I really do like the simplicity of this, and you can tell me all you want about how easy it is to change wheels and change cranks, and that's true, but I use different cranks/BBs on different bike (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) and use different wheels on different bikes. I don't, however, use different pedals. As it is now, I only have one pair of road pedals that I swap back and forth as needed.
The only thing about this is that Garmin's press release mentioned the Edges and the Forerunner 910, but nothing about the Forerunner 310, even though the 310 is supposed to be PM-compatible. I know it doesn't do left/right balance, but I'd still like to know if this would work with a 310.

IG: idking90
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [iank] [ In reply to ]
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It SHOULD display power on any head unit that displays power.... that is the benefit of using an open standard like ANT+. You are correct about the L/R balance not displaying, as far as I know that is not actually in the standard yet, but has been proposed last I heard.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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quote ericM40-44 "wow, I really regret not holding out... just didn't have the discipline or will power I guess. What will I do with 7 years of accurate, consistent SRM power data from thousands of hours of training and racing? Oh well."

Your logic is ridiculous...

I'm really looking forward to all of you finishing patting yourselves on the back for not waiting so we can start a proper discussion about the vector. What exactly does that add to the conversation? I could tell you that I didn't buy an SRM and went with powertap instead, but that would be equally ridiculous.

I also didn't wait and installed powertaps in my training and racing wheels... but I'm still intrigued by the Vector. If it proves to be reliable, functional, and durable it will be another great product out of many great choices in the power meter market. Personally I'd love to briefly rent a set. I'm having a lot of right leg issues in the last couple years and I'd love to see whats happening on the bike on my bad days with my left/right power. Of course since I already own a power meter I'm not interested in purchasing one. So whose going to buy a set and then rent them to me?
Last edited by: Nickwisdom: Aug 7, 13 7:35
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Nickwisdom] [ In reply to ]
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DCRainmaker's First Hands on


http://www.dcrainmaker.com/...n-garmin-vector.html
Last edited by: Sword: Aug 7, 13 7:39
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [pyrahna] [ In reply to ]
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Well another difference in the analogy is that I consider the powertap to be a superior product, rather than inferior =)


pyrahna wrote:
Ok this is some goofey logic if I ever heard it. It is like saying you don't want a P5 because your P3 has been serving you well for 8 yrs. It is the latest toy. It has some interesting benefits and looks, from 24 hrs worth of data, to be a solid offering. The real question is it worth $900 more than a Stages or $700 more than a powertap with an alloy wheelset?

p.s. I realize that I am stretching it a bit with the P5 vs. P3 comparison because Cervelo provided data from the get go that the P5 was aerodynamically faster, but I don't think it is any more of a stretch than your logic.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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I think it might be a little early, given that it was released to the public today, to be saying one product is inferior to the other. Time will tell on multiple fronts as to what the superior product is. And this is coming from someone who bought a powertap two months ago, has no plan on upgrading, and has nothing but positive experiences with the hardware of the powertap. (the software is a different case all together, but that is an easily changed thing, I just need to bite the bullet)
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [pyrahna] [ In reply to ]
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pyrahna wrote:
It SHOULD display power on any head unit that displays power.... that is the benefit of using an open standard like ANT+. You are correct about the L/R balance not displaying, as far as I know that is not actually in the standard yet, but has been proposed last I heard.

The ANT+ spec regarding left/right was formalized (finalized) about 18-20 months ago (roughly). The most recent updates (formalized) added in Pedal Smoothness and Torque Efficiency, roughly late last year ahead of the ROTOR release.

It's up to individual ANT+ head unit companies to implement it.


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My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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10-4 I stand corrected, thanks for the update.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [pyrahna] [ In reply to ]
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I suppose there is the advantage of chain friction not being a confounding variable.

that is about the only theoretically possible
substantive advantage I can think of =)

well and you can use any wheel you want, but I don't care about that much.



pyrahna wrote:
I think it might be a little early, given that it was released to the public today, to be saying one product is inferior to the other. Time will tell on multiple fronts as to what the superior product is. And this is coming from someone who bought a powertap two months ago, has no plan on upgrading, and has nothing but positive experiences with the hardware of the powertap. (the software is a different case all together, but that is an easily changed thing, I just need to bite the bullet)



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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Along a different train of thought....is there an actual definition of what "Pedal Smoothness" and "Torque Efficiency" are? I am asking for units, and calculations if they exist. i.e.is Pedal Smoothness the derivative of cadence?
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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As alluded to in DCRainmaker's article the left right thing could be interesting after more research. It allows any wheelset, AND any crankset you want. I.e. a zipp disc and a shimano crank. I'm not saying these benefits are worth the price they are asking....but they are differences from other established power meters. It just seems silly to write them off this soon after they have been released.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [pyrahna] [ In reply to ]
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pyrahna wrote:
Along a different train of thought....is there an actual definition of what "Pedal Smoothness" and "Torque Efficiency" are? I am asking for units, and calculations if they exist. i.e.is Pedal Smoothness the derivative of cadence?


Torque Efficiency speaks to the ratio of positive and negative power – in other words, how much your pulling up versus pushing down. Pedal Smoothness is how even your pedaling is over the course of the stroke. This is similar to Spin Scan as found on a CompuTrainer.


That's a good point, I'll add that into the post there.


Btw, I went back and checked the date for those two metrics - the official date was actually only Feb 2013 for the announcement, so a few months later than I remembered.


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My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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I understand the basic concepts....I am just wondering what the actual calculations are. i.e. if I had data that included the left and right torques, and instantaneous cadences, how would I calculate Pedal Smoothness and Torque Efficiency? This is a personal issue of not talking about 'metrics' that I don't understand at a mathematical level.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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Torque Efficiency speaks to the ratio of positive and negative power – in other words, how much your pulling up versus pushing down. Pedal Smoothness is how even your pedaling is over the course of the stroke.

The problem being that these terms and metrics give the impression that they are a "universal good" when they aren't by a long shot. I envision lots of salesmen pretending otherwise, and novices wasting time trying to maximize these values.

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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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dcrainmaker wrote:
The most recent updates (formalized) added in Pedal Smoothness and Torque Efficiency, ...

Do you have a URL for those ANT+ profile updates (I have a hard time navigating the ANT+ site to find the specs...).

In your review you write: Note that at present Vector does not transmit this information (yet).

Is that "just" a matter of a firmware update for the pedals?

That data would be for me the reason to buy the Vector (I already have power meters.)

Will there be a mode comparable to the "Pedal Force Profile" of the "Power Pedals" (http://www.bikepowerpedals.com/)? On one website I found a brochure for the Garmin Vector that states: "See the whole force profile of the pedal stroke". Any information on that?
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
I suppose there is the advantage of chain friction not being a confounding variable.

that is about the only theoretically possible
substantive advantage I can think of =)

well and you can use any wheel you want, but I don't care about that much.



pyrahna wrote:
I think it might be a little early, given that it was released to the public today, to be saying one product is inferior to the other. Time will tell on multiple fronts as to what the superior product is. And this is coming from someone who bought a powertap two months ago, has no plan on upgrading, and has nothing but positive experiences with the hardware of the powertap. (the software is a different case all together, but that is an easily changed thing, I just need to bite the bullet)

Curious why you think it's inferior, Jack? It may not meet the gold standard for field testing of aero and crr, but for the majority of powermeter users, that's probably not a primary concern. To discount 100% wheel compatibility is ridiculous, too. You're also leaving out BB/crank compatibility, which is a pain in the ass and very nice not to have to think of.
I can't think of another powermeter that's more universally compatible than the Vectors except maybe the iBike, and that doesn't really count...

IG: idking90
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [MrSkinny] [ In reply to ]
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Funny, I was just trying to find those profiles themselves (the detailed specs). Still fumbling away on the site.

As for Vector transmitting that - it's absolutely a firmware-update only. I suspect it'll be the first firmware update we see (new-feature wise), and from everything we talked about, really just the tip of the iceberg on where they want to go with the software side.

They see it as two seperate tracks:

Hardware (i.e. cleat/pedal types)
Software (firmware updates)

They don't see for example coming out with a new Look Keo Vector in a years time. Instead, you'd likely see a new pedal type supported.

On the software side, all pedals would be using the same software - so even 2-4 years from now updates would hit all Vector units. They view Vector as a 'platform' for these updates. They did specifically mention a 4-year software roadmap for firmware feature updates.


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My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [pyrahna] [ In reply to ]
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pyrahna wrote:
I understand the basic concepts....I am just wondering what the actual calculations are. i.e. if I had data that included the left and right torques, and instantaneous cadences, how would I calculate Pedal Smoothness and Torque Efficiency? This is a personal issue of not talking about 'metrics' that I don't understand at a mathematical level.


Ok, found it. But you'll need an ANT+ account of some sort:

http://www.thisisant.com/resources/bicycle-power/


At any rate, for those two metrics, here's what it says (calculations/background). I just went ahead and snippeted those two pages. Hopefully nobody gets upset for trying to explain things...


Pedal Smoothness: https://sites.google.com/...moothnessSnippet.JPG


Torque Efficiency: https://sites.google.com/...TorqueEffeciency.JPG




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My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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Nice initial review. Looking forward to the full review on these, and how they continue to compare against the other PMs on your test rig.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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Excellent initial write up.

I'm actually very impressed with some of the details, especially the pedal pods being replaceable for $69 a pair. Damaging the pods, however improbable it may be was one of my biggest concerns with this system, and I consider that a very reasonable price to pay in the unlikely case that it does happen.

I still find the cost of the unit to be prohibitive and I subjectively would have preferred speedplay over Look, but I'm glad this is finally out the door. I just hope competition from Stages, P2Max and PT can help bring down the cost of both Quarq and the Vector to somewhat more competitive levels (imho, 1000-1200). Not exactly holding my breath though.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [tgarson] [ In reply to ]
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I have a feeling (zero inside info) that we'll see Quarq lower prices on (at least) the Riken. That's a tough pitch at that level given the PT drops and the Vector pricing. The Elsa I suspect might also have to lower a touch bit as well, perhaps just undercutting Vector.

P2M is very well positioned price-wise, but they have distribution/retail challenges (bottlenecks) that are really slowing their adoption unnecessarily. Which is too bad, it's a solid system.


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My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [iank] [ In reply to ]
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>leaving out BB/crank compatibility, which is a pain in the ass and very nice not to have to think of.

Yeah, switching the crank between bikes is easy. But my TT bike is near end-of-life, and I'm in the market for a new one. And the 24mm spindle on my Quarq is starting to really limit my options, and it's tedious doing all the research to see if some combination of "spindle reducer" shims, etc., will work. And those shims somewhat defeat the purpose of BB30/BBright anyway.

And (fingers crossed) the standard for bike pedals isn't going to change anytime soon, and is the same for mountain, cross, track bikes too.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Totally agree. Got rid of my Quarq because of BB compatibility issues and "standardized" everything with a Stages and 175mm Shimano cranks.

The problem is that I'm limited in any future bike choice (road/tri/cx/etc.) to something that takes an Ultegra crank. That means no fancy aero road bike, no Tarmac, no Domane, and no future superbike without adapters - currently have Speed Concept 7.0.

Biggest bummer to me on Ray's first look is that I was thinking swapping pedals between bikes would be the easiest, but I'm thinking the Stages takes that prize.

I'm happy to pay a premium for a product that works better or is easier to use, but I don't see a ton of value to me until a new bike comes out that I NEED and I can't slap a Shimano crank on it.

/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
>leaving out BB/crank compatibility, which is a pain in the ass and very nice not to have to think of.

Yeah, switching the crank between bikes is easy. But my TT bike is near end-of-life, and I'm in the market for a new one. And the 24mm spindle on my Quarq is starting to really limit my options, and it's tedious doing all the research to see if some combination of "spindle reducer" shims, etc., will work. And those shims somewhat defeat the purpose of BB30/BBright anyway.

And (fingers crossed) the standard for bike pedals isn't going to change anytime soon, and is the same for mountain, cross, track bikes too.

Exactly. My road bike is a Cannondale with BB30, and my TT bike is a Giant with a press-fit BB86. I've never delved enough into the research about it because I usually end up getting confused/annoyed/frustrated and give up. Then I start looking into Stages because it's so much cheaper, then I realize there's no Stages crank arm to match what's on my road bike, so I'm looking at buying a whole new crank for that anyway.

IG: idking90
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks....that is exactly what I was looking for.

And thank you for your continued value to the community. I for one appreciate you taking the time to delve through all this. A lot of it isn't that hard conceptually, but it takes a lot of time to do it correctly, and you definitely do it correctly.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Sword] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, as always, to Ray. People who haven't collected comparative PM data don't have any idea how much of a pain in the butt these comparisons are.

Here's a little comparison plot of the imputed gear ratios for Ray's solo mountain ride (well, the first 10km or so). X-axis is distance in km from start of ride, y-axis is imputed gear ratio based on recorded speed and cadence. Which is the Garmin Vector, the PT, the Quarq, and the Stages?


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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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As a lay person (ignorant of such things) looking at those charts it seems top right and bottom left are very similar and 'crisper', making me think they are the 'best'. Followed by top left based on 'crispness' with bottom right brining up the rear.

What do they really tell us?
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [TheRhino] [ In reply to ]
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In this particular case it tells us that the quality of data being recorded by the PMs differs. The plots show the gear ratios that are imputed from speed and cadence. Since on derailleur bikes the gear ratios are discrete the imputed gear ratios ought to line up in discrete rows. Either the speed or cadence signal for the PM in the lower right is obviously of lower quality than the other three. Since I posted this, Ray has clarified that the speed signal for the lower right PM was off. We still don't yet know if the cadence is off but it's kind of cool that we can spot the data quality issue from such a simple plot.

The cadence signal for the Stages when it was initially released was off, and it appeared to affect the power measurement. (BTW, the Power Tap doesn't rely on cadence measurement to calculate power so we don't usually care if PT cadence is off since it doesn't affect power).
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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I've been out of the tri-world for a year and a half due to a torn peroneus / ankle reconstruction, and I remember thinking to myself, 'At least the Vector will be out when I come back' and it wasn't. Its about friggin time!
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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If the speed was off by a fixed amount it would just shift the dots up/down but still be crisper, yes? Looks like the speed data was variably off through the ride. Tight dots would also just indicate precision, but not nessicarily accuracy, identical dots from multiple units would indicate accuracy? I guess as long as you use the same system each time precision would suffice.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [TheRhino] [ In reply to ]
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TheRhino wrote:
If the speed was off by a fixed amount it would just shift the dots up/down but still be crisper, yes? Looks like the speed data was variably off through the ride. Tight dots would also just indicate precision, but not nessicarily accuracy, identical dots from multiple units would indicate accuracy? I guess as long as you use the same system each time precision would suffice.
Shifting of the imputed gear ratio up or down typically means the tire rollout was improperly entered. "Smudging" of the dots means that *either* the cadence *or* the speed was improperly recorded (or, occasionally, both). Ray has said that the smudging in the bottom right was because of errors in GPS speed. Errors in speed like this mean that you can't do aero testing as well. Errors in cadence, which we've seen elsewhere, mean you can't do QA-type analysis as well.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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Only cadance is used in calculating power (excepting the Powertap) so smudgy dots could mean imprecise power then as well I take it? Thanks for detailed explanations, appreciate it.
Last edited by: TheRhino: Aug 7, 13 17:06
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
Since I posted this, Ray has clarified that the speed signal for the lower right PM was off. We still don't yet know if the cadence is off but it's kind of cool that we can spot the data quality issue from such a simple plot.

Yes. That's very cool...but, assuming the lower right PM was not the PT, does that mean that he didn't pair the separate head units to the same wheel speed sensor for the Quarq, Stages, and Vector? I'm not sure why he'd do that...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [TheRhino] [ In reply to ]
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TheRhino wrote:
Only cadance is used in calculating power (excepting the Powertap) so smudgy dots could mean imprecise power then as well I take it?


Yup, that's why I look at the quality of the cadence signal. Except for the Power Tap (and the old Polar chain-based PM and the iBike) you have to have both torque and rotational speed of the crank (that is, cadence) in order to calculate power. One of the idiosyncrasies of using non-round chainrings is that the rotational speed of the crank isn't constant so you can get a biased estimate of power if you don't take that into account.


Tom A. wrote:
Yes. That's very cool...but, assuming the lower right PM was not the PT, does that mean that he didn't pair the separate head units to the same wheel speed sensor for the Quarq, Stages, and Vector? I'm not sure why he'd do that...

I think it just fell through the cracks. Synchronizing all four power meters and zeroing them and doing all that other preparatory crap is unnatural and, in many ways, we should be thankful that Ray takes so much care and overlooks so few things. You and I know that doing careful testing is way harder than people think.

Last edited by: RChung: Aug 7, 13 17:34
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
TheRhino wrote:
Only cadance is used in calculating power (excepting the Powertap) so smudgy dots could mean imprecise power then as well I take it?


Yup, that's why I look at the quality of the cadence signal. Except for the Power Tap (and the old Polar chain-based PM and the iBike) you have to have both torque and rotational speed of the crank (that is, cadence) in order to calculate power. One of the idiosyncrasies of using non-round chainrings is that the rotational speed of the crank isn't constant so you can get a biased estimate of power if you don't take that into account.


Tom A. wrote:
Yes. That's very cool...but, assuming the lower right PM was not the PT, does that mean that he didn't pair the separate head units to the same wheel speed sensor for the Quarq, Stages, and Vector? I'm not sure why he'd do that...


I think it just fell through the cracks. Synchronizing all four power meters and zeroing them and doing all that other preparatory crap is unnatural and, in many ways, we should be thankful that Ray takes so much care and overlooks so few things. You and I know that doing careful testing is way harder than people think.

Yup, the reason the Vector one (810) wasn't paired (speed-sensor) was simply that they gave it to us that morning to use, all pre-paired with our pedals. So while I did some quick change of the data fields, and validated stuff like the FTP and 1s recording, I didn't think to add in the speed sensor (7AM, folks rushing to get everything done and out the door). The others were all using the same speed sensor (or at least, baring anything, should have been) - only a single speed sensor on the bike right now (speed-only). Later on in the day we'd all run through the whole new-pairing process again, but this was just to get folks out the door in the morning.

It's on my list for tomorrow's long ride. I've gotta get all the units updated to the latest firmware versions, as in talking to them the updates for the Edge 800 would change power recording for the non-PT units, so I want to ensure all units are at least recording the same way going forward. So post FW updates I'll be running through my usual checklist...


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My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
Torque Efficiency speaks to the ratio of positive and negative power – in other words, how much your pulling up versus pushing down. Pedal Smoothness is how even your pedaling is over the course of the stroke.

The problem being that these terms and metrics give the impression that they are a "universal good" when they aren't by a long shot. I envision lots of salesmen pretending otherwise, and novices wasting time trying to maximize these values.
Just to clarify, it is not a measure of pulling up v pushing down, rather it's a ratio of the net torque applied (i.e. sum of the positive and negative torque, ie. torque both with and opposing the direction of crank rotation) to torque only applied in the direction of crank rotation.

And yes, having a ratio < 1 does not mean bad things.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Watt Matters] [ In reply to ]
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Torque Efficiency is an interesting metric and can help you understand why your power balance may be off. In my case the neuromuscular ability of my left leg to not generate negative torque on the upstroke seems to explain my slight left / right imbalance. At lower power your torque efficiency is lower than at higher power. If you think about it for more than a minute you will understand why...
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Watt Matters] [ In reply to ]
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Torque Efficiency actually looks like an interesting metric. Pedal smoothness on the other hand doesn't look nearly as useful. Can someone explain to me why I should care where my torque is distributed in the pedal stroke as long as I am pushing at some point in time?
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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dcrainmaker wrote:

Yup, the reason the Vector one (810) wasn't paired (speed-sensor) was simply that they gave it to us that morning to use, all pre-paired with our pedals.

Aahhh, I see...so the Vector's 810 was using GPS-based speed then?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Correct.

I'm just headed out the door now for along ride or two, but all units are now on the newly released firmware (800's/810's), and also, all units now are set to speed (including the one they included).


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My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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dcrainmaker wrote:
Correct.

I'm just headed out the door now for along ride or two, but all units are now on the newly released firmware (800's/810's), and also, all units now are set to speed (including the one they included).

Are you picking up all the raw data streams with the WASP too?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, raw data streams will be part of today's ride (headed out to Skyline drive for a few hours).

Depending on timing, I may afterwards head to a place to do some loops around Ft. Hunt park (http://www.dcrainmaker.com/...by-position-for.html) merely because I suspect Mr. Chung would like the data for virtual elevation purposes. But again, that does depend a bit on me actually getting out the door... ;)


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My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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No need to put yourself out on my account if it's inconvenient. I've already done some VE comparisons.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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dcrainmaker wrote:
Yes, raw data streams will be part of today's ride (headed out to Skyline drive for a few hours).

Depending on timing, I may afterwards head to a place to do some loops around Ft. Hunt park (http://www.dcrainmaker.com/...by-position-for.html) merely because I suspect Mr. Chung would like the data for virtual elevation purposes. But again, that does depend a bit on me actually getting out the door... ;)

Cool.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the ANT+ information!

I was just about to order the power meter when I realized that I should check whether the Vector actually would fit on my bike. Well, it turns out the crank arm to chain clearance is less than 4mm, hence below the 5mm minimum stated in the Garmin Vector Owner Manual. Yet another power meter that doesn't fit me/my bike(s).
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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Hello dcrainmaker and All,

http://djconnel.blogspot.com/...tor-vs-powertap.html

Since we all wish for something I am wishing the Vector had SpeedPlay pedals and my check would be in the mail.

Cheers,

Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [MrSkinny] [ In reply to ]
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I'm very interested in the Garmin Vector as a PM that could be transferred btw my various bikes. But, I just viewed the Garmin installation videos and see that the inside edge of the drive side crank needs 5mm of clearance from the chain. I just went and measured five different bikes in our house and none of them have 5mm of clearance. This is with a variety of frames, road & tri, and a variety of cranks, Shimano and FSA. All bikes seem to measure between 2mm to 4mm of clearance. I am wondering if one, the 5mm is a very conservative clearance or is there something unique in the way these bikes are set up, i.e. is the cassette spaced out further than normal. Would like to have more information before I decide to pull the trigger.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [jab] [ In reply to ]
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Bump!
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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My local shop had them in stock this morning and the owner said they should be coming with more pedal options next year. He thought Time, Speedplay and maybe Shimano?
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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nealhe wrote:
Hello dcrainmaker and All,

http://djconnel.blogspot.com/...tor-vs-powertap.html

Since we all wish for something I am wishing the Vector had SpeedPlay pedals and my check would be in the mail.

Cheers,

Neal

+1 mph Faster


X2

DFL > DNF > DNS
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [iank] [ In reply to ]
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iank wrote:
I can't think of another powermeter that's more universally compatible than the Vectors except maybe the iBike, and that doesn't really count...

What if you don't like Look pedals? Each system has compatibility issues. In many ways, the PowerTap is the most compatible, since every bike uses the same rear wheel standard.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Jctriguy wrote:
iank wrote:
I can't think of another powermeter that's more universally compatible than the Vectors except maybe the iBike, and that doesn't really count...


What if you don't like Look pedals? Each system has compatibility issues. In many ways, the PowerTap is the most compatible, since every bike uses the same rear wheel standard.

Well, that's not really true. I have a PT laced into a set of Mavic SL wheels that I can't use right now because the free hub isn't compatible with my 11-speed di2 cassette. I think any power measurement method is going to present different compatibility issues to different people, depending on how and what they ride. The 'best' solution is going to be different for different people.

FWIW,
Greg

If you are a Canuck that engages in gratuitous bashing of the US, you are probably on my Iggy List. So, save your self a bunch of typing a response unless you also feel the need to gratuitously bash me. If so, have fun.
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f___ things up" - Barack Obama, 2020
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Jctriguy wrote:
In many ways, the PowerTap is the most compatible, since every bike uses the same rear wheel standard.

I am fairly certain that there are both 650c and 700c wheels. Not to mention Campy vs Shimano/Sram and 11s versus 10 speed.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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Let me know how many people use campy and shimano together. Very strange to have both groupsets running in the same household. Just doesn't make sense for ease of swapping parts. Same for 650 wheels. Not very common these days, you can barely get tires for them anymore.

Probably 80% of people are using shimano 9/10sp right now. Don't think 80% of people are using look pedals. Of the dozen or so people that I ride with regularily, 100% are using shimano/sram 10sp 700c wheels.
Last edited by: Jctriguy: Aug 13, 13 12:32
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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Ray,

Thank you again for all the feedback you've posted here and on your site throughout the entire lifespan of the Vector (over the last couple years). One thing I was curious about: is anyone out on the test group riding them with Q-rings or similar, and if so, are there any strange data skews (obviously we'd expect the data from something like Power2max, etc. to have some serious issues with the asymmetrical rings, but I can't think of any reason for the Vectors to not output meaningful numbers on this end of things - or at least numbers that could possibly start being used to quantify the effect of the asymmetric rings on power output through the stroke).

Again, many thanks!

-----------------------------------------------------------
Proud member of the GUCrew
Twitter: @tripigeon Blog: Ironpigeon.com
Thoughts on AG sponsorships / community involvement: http://bit.ly/1dQlVDy
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Let me know how many people use campy and shimano together

Road bike is Shimano, and Tri bike is Campy. Road is getting upgraded later this year or early next year to Campy.

More pedal choices would be a plus. I currently ride Time, though never tried the Looks. I'm going to have to check with my LBS if he'll have a pair to demo in the shop as I know one local guy around here already has them.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Right, but apart from old as hell bikes (like the beater road bike I tried to buy on Craigslist to use as a commuter), there's 1 standard for how a pedal attaches to your bike (I am pretending side mount pedals are not a real thing here), whether it's a beach cruiser, MTB, CX, road, TT, track, fat bike, etc. Powertap, while it can be built into any wheel, often doesn't come in many wheels such as any Zipps and probably other brands I don't feel like thinking about at the moment. As others mentioned, though, there are different types of wheels such that a Powertap wheelset cannot be transferred between bikes, and quite a few triathletes, particularly smaller women, may have a TT bike with 650s and a road bike with 700; it's really not that uncommon. Others, though I'm not sure I would think it's a good idea, may want to occasionally take them out on a MTB and hope they don't clip one of the pedal pods on a root or a rock. Your road Powertap isn't going to be able to fit that.
I'd venture to guess that you are correct that universal adoption of Powertap would cause fewer equipment changes than universal adoption of Keo-compatible Vectors, but the Keo-Vectors can go on ANY bike (in addition to the fact that Garmin has indicated that it wants to create other pedal platforms and that the Keos are just a starting point). Find me a Powertap that does that.

On another note, I now think it would be fun to see how putting Vectors on an electric bike would make for some funny power readings. Because, you know, we can do that. We can't put an SRM or Quarq or Powertap on one, though. :)

IG: idking90
Last edited by: iank: Aug 13, 13 19:42
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [TriPigeon] [ In reply to ]
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O-Rings were brought up in the meetings. They noted there's no issues with using them and Vector.


-
My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [MrSkinny] [ In reply to ]
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MrSkinny wrote:
Thanks for the ANT+ information!

I was just about to order the power meter when I realized that I should check whether the Vector actually would fit on my bike. Well, it turns out the crank arm to chain clearance is less than 4mm, hence below the 5mm minimum stated in the Garmin Vector Owner Manual. Yet another power meter that doesn't fit me/my bike(s).

Glad you mentioned that little known fact. I suppose it should be mentioned that to check the clearance, it is important to get the chain as far outboard as possible (big ring and last cog on cassette) before pulling out the ruler. Second, if anyone else is using Hollogram Sisl 2 cranks on a Cannondale, you should be OK. I measured mine tonight at .290" with calipers. This is with an 11-speed cassette. The required clearance is 5mm or .20".

Greg

If you are a Canuck that engages in gratuitous bashing of the US, you are probably on my Iggy List. So, save your self a bunch of typing a response unless you also feel the need to gratuitously bash me. If so, have fun.
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f___ things up" - Barack Obama, 2020
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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dcrainmaker wrote:
O-Rings were brought up in the meetings. They noted there's no issues with using them and Vector.

Was it clear that they understood the issue? ( i.e. incorrect assumption of constant crank angular velocity)

I recall a quote from an SRM engineer at one time that non-round rings couldn't affect an SRM either, which is demonstrably wrong, and just means he didn't understand the issue.

It seems to me that the way they measure cadence is by watching the gravity vector sweep through the accel readout. Of course, the simplest thing would be to just measure the time between peaks and calculate the average angular velocity, which WOULD cause issues with non-round rings. The only way to avoid that would be if they were calculating the rate of change of the "vector sweep". Did they say or explain which way the were calculating cadence?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [TriPigeon] [ In reply to ]
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Ummm...........
What "issues" with Q-rings and Power2Max?
I have both and love them both!
Working great!
-YT
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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I referred them to this post to read and asked for a bit of clarification, here's what they came back with:

"We are using a single cadence event to calculate power, and do assume constant velocity through each pedal stroke measured. We have the capability in the future to release “micro-cadence” resolution, but do not have a scheduled release date at this time."


-
My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Y-Tri] [ In reply to ]
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Y-Tri wrote:
Ummm...........
What "issues" with Q-rings and Power2Max?
I have both and love them both!
Working great!
-YT

+1
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [djmercer] [ In reply to ]
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djmercer wrote:
Y-Tri wrote:
Ummm...........
What "issues" with Q-rings and Power2Max?
I have both and love them both!
Working great!
-YT


+1


[Update: Uh-oh. See MTM's post below.]

Ray's post verifies that P2M (like many other crank-based PMs) assumes constant rotation. If you can assume constant rotation speed then it simplifies power calculation, which is why manufacturers do it that way. When rotation is constant then all you need to do is get the average torque and multiply it by the (constant) angular velocity to get power. However, *by design* Q-rings don't have constant angular velocity so in order to get the correct power you ought to use the *weighted* rather than *unweighted* average torque where the weights are given by the changing angular velocity. If you don't do that the unweighted average torque for Q-rings will be biased, so the power reported by the PM will also be biased. The amount of bias will depend on how far the true angular velocities are from constant which, in turn, will depend on how eccentric the rings are -- but for "typical" non-round rings the bias will be in the ballpark of 2 or 3% (that is, if you're truly producing 250 watts then a Q-ring equipped power meter that assumes constant angular velocity will read something like 5 or 8 watts high, so unless you're aware of this you might think that a simple change to Q-rings gave you a 5 or 8 watt boost in power). P2M says that they only measure cadence by a single event trigger once per crank cycle so they can't observe changes in angular velocity.

[Edited to add clarification:] This is not a problem that applies only to P2M. It applies to all crank-based power meters that assume constant angular velocity. Because the Polar chain-based power meter measured chain speed and chain tension, it probably would have been immune to this particular problem. Because the Power Tap measures at the rear hub (and wheel rotation speed is typically faster than crank rotation speed) and also because its power measurement is time-based rather than event-based, it also should be less affected by this type of measurement bias.
Last edited by: RChung: Aug 16, 13 13:46
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Cervfreak] [ In reply to ]
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>In my case the neuromuscular ability of my left leg to not generate negative torque on the upstroke seems to explain my slight left / right imbalance.

According to Watt Matter's definition, negative torque doesn't sound like something that would be missed all that much.
Last edited by: trail: Aug 16, 13 10:41
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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I think Ray's post was with regards to Vector and not P2M, i.e. Vector seems to assume constant angular velocity. I remember P2M explicitly stating on their site that non-circular chain rings would not influence the power readings on their power meter. However, if that is true and they truly are continuously measuring cadence (and torque) throughout the pedal revolution, I don't know.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [MTM] [ In reply to ]
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MTM wrote:
I think Ray's post was with regards to Vector and not P2M, i.e. Vector seems to assume constant angular velocity. I remember P2M explicitly stating on their site that non-circular chain rings would not influence the power readings on their power meter. However, if that is true and they truly are continuously measuring cadence (and torque) throughout the pedal revolution, I don't know.

Uh-oh. Okay, I followed the thread back more carefully and it looks like you're right, dammit.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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I just looked up what P2M says on their site now:


"Changing cranks or chain rings does not affect calibration. You can also use oval chain rings (e.g., Rotor Q-Rings, Osymetric, etc). "


http://www.power2max.de/support_faq.php?lang=en


Strictly speaking I guess they don't say oval chain rings won't affect the accuracy, but it seems a bit implied. Who knows.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [MTM] [ In reply to ]
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MTM wrote:
I just looked up what P2M says on their site now:


"Changing cranks or chain rings does not affect calibration. You can also use oval chain rings (e.g., Rotor Q-Rings, Osymetric, etc). "


http://www.power2max.de/support_faq.php?lang=en


Strictly speaking I guess they don't say oval chain rings won't affect the accuracy, but it seems a bit implied. Who knows.

Well, oval chain rings wouldn't affect calibration. They affect the angular velocity, so you wouldn't detect any difference with standard torque checks.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [trail] [ In reply to ]
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In short, yes. The negative torque is much less than the positive torque you generate through the down stroke. Hence as your power increases your torque efficiency increases. What is interesting is observing differences between each leg. I'm right handed and I can see from torque efficiency that the neuro-muscular control of my right leg is better than my left.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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dcrainmaker wrote:
I referred them to this post to read and asked for a bit of clarification, here's what they came back with:

"We are using a single cadence event to calculate power, and do assume constant velocity through each pedal stroke measured. We have the capability in the future to release “micro-cadence” resolution, but do not have a scheduled release date at this time."


Interesting...so I guess that means that they too didn't understand the particulars of the problem when making the statement that it isn't affected.

So, at this point in time at least, Vector will inflate power values with non-round rings.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Aug 16, 13 15:43
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:


[Edited to add clarification:] This is not a problem that applies only to P2M. It applies to all crank-based power meters that assume constant angular velocity. Because the Polar chain-based power meter measured chain speed and chain tension, it probably would have been immune to this particular problem.

Possibly...it all depends on how Polar decided to "sum it all up"...and the particulars of the Polar power calculation algorithm have never been quite clear. They DID require a cadence trigger to get power values.

Of course, I know someone who has a working Polar power unit and an Osymmetric ring on hand who could figure this out ;-)

You know...I wonder if the non-round ring giving a bit of a "forcing" function into the chain might help a Polar work more reliably on a trainer? :-)


RChung wrote:
Because the Power Tap measures at the rear hub (and wheel rotation speed is typically faster than crank rotation speed) and also because its power measurement is time-based rather than event-based, it also should be less affected by this type of measurement bias.

...not only for the above reasons, but also mainly for the reason that the rear wheel speed is going to be fairly steady simply due to it being "coupled" to the rider mass (assuming freewheel is engaged) and the resultant large inertia.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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What about Stages? Google-fu couldn't tell me if Stages makes the CV assumption....
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Cervfreak] [ In reply to ]
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>In short, yes. The negative torque is much less than the positive torque you generate through the down stroke.

I'm still a little confused. Your wording let me to believe that you were using:

positive torque = downstroke
negative torque = upstroke


But Watt Matters defines it as

positive torque = assisting in forward movement of crank, anywhere in the cycle
negative torque = opposing torque...torque which slows down the crank anywhere in the cycle.

But I could be wrong, and you're really using the same definition as him.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
What about Stages? Google-fu couldn't tell me if Stages makes the CV assumption....

Don't quote me on this...but my recollection is that it does.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
trail wrote:
What about Stages? Google-fu couldn't tell me if Stages makes the CV assumption....


Don't quote me on this...but my recollection is that it does.

They had trouble getting cadence right to begin with, let alone instantaneous rotational velocity.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
dcrainmaker wrote:
I referred them to this post to read and asked for a bit of clarification, here's what they came back with:

"We are using a single cadence event to calculate power, and do assume constant velocity through each pedal stroke measured. We have the capability in the future to release “micro-cadence” resolution, but do not have a scheduled release date at this time."


Interesting...so I guess that means that they too didn't understand the particulars of the problem when making the statement that it isn't affected.

So, at this point in time at least, Vector will inflate power values with non-round rings.

Power2Max have not adequately answered the question of measurement of rotational velocity, IMO.

I need convincing that accelerometers can really get high frequency crank velocity samples with sufficient sample by sample accuracy.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
>In short, yes. The negative torque is much less than the positive torque you generate through the down stroke.

I'm still a little confused. Your wording let me to believe that you were using:

positive torque = downstroke
negative torque = upstroke


But Watt Matters defines it as

positive torque = assisting in forward movement of crank, anywhere in the cycle
negative torque = opposing torque...torque which slows down the crank anywhere in the cycle.

But I could be wrong, and you're really using the same definition as him.

Since torque is vector quantity, conventionally defined by the right hand rule, its direction is normally defined in relative to the direction of angular motion of whatever you are applying torque to. It matters not where in the rotation the force creating the torque is applied.

e.g. on a fixed gear bike one can apply negative torque on the forward foot downstroke. It can hurt like mofo after hard riding, but that's an example of where downstroke and upstroke have no relevance to the definition of positive and negative torque. Likewise on the rear foot upstroke, it can apply negative or positive torque, or sweet bugger all.

Where and how you apply torque at various positions of crank rotation may or may not be all that interesting/relevant to performance, but that's for another discussion.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Watt Matters] [ In reply to ]
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Dear all,

Nicolas from power2max here. Just found this thread. To answer the question about data: we sample cadence and torque at 50 Hz. The statement about being able to change chain rings is also related to another characteristic of our power meter. power readings are not affected by the chain rings or exact chain ring bolt torques, making it safe to switch chain rings without affecting your readings.

Regarding our distribution that Ray mentions: check our website this coming Monday, things are moving and there will be interesting news for you guys in the States. Not saying more for now :-).

Cheers
Nicolas

---
power2max
http://www.power2max.com/northamerica
official power meter of Movistar Team
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [power2max] [ In reply to ]
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power2max wrote:
Dear all,

Nicolas from power2max here. Just found this thread. To answer the question about data: we sample cadence and torque at 50 Hz. The statement about being able to change chain rings is also related to another characteristic of our power meter. power readings are not affected by the chain rings or exact chain ring bolt torques, making it safe to switch chain rings without affecting your readings.

Regarding our distribution that Ray mentions: check our website this coming Monday, things are moving and there will be interesting news for you guys in the States. Not saying more for now :-).

Cheers
Nicolas

Nicolas, thanks. So, just to clarify, how does the Power2Max use the angular velocity and torque samples to produce power? ANT+ allows for transmission at 4Hz, right? Are you sending a different value for power and cadence each quarter of a second? Or do you average the angular velocity samples and average the torque samples over some longer time interval (like, a second) and then multiply them to get the average power over the interval and then transmit them?
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:

Nicolas, thanks. So, just to clarify, how does the Power2Max use the angular velocity and torque samples to produce power? ANT+ allows for transmission at 4Hz, right? Are you sending a different value for power and cadence each quarter of a second? Or do you average the angular velocity samples and average the torque samples over some longer time interval (like, a second) and then multiply them to get the average power over the interval and then transmit them?

Hi rchung,

Unfortunately I cannot go into the details of how the electronics exactly work, since it is proprietary. We are aware of the issue you mention above and have taken it into account in our approach. We also test our power meters both with round and Q-rings against the Cyclus2, which is independently calibrated and measures differently, and find that our results are consistent.

Best wishes,
Nicolas

---
power2max
http://www.power2max.com/northamerica
official power meter of Movistar Team
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [power2max] [ In reply to ]
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I apologize for not having been initially more clear about this point in my query to Ray in this thread!

I should have specified that my concerns with Power2max are the 110bcd spider and it's structural compatibility with O-Rings (which to my understanding isn't an issue with their 130BCD meters), while my concerns with the other meters was the Velocity issue.

Personally, I'll probably keep both meters running (the P2max on my road / dedicated training bike, the Vector's on my race bike to run Aerorings) because the p2max has been an absolutely faultless meter through 6 months of heavy use. I trust it's numbers implicitly for training, and can't see shifting it off.

Thrilled to hear that you guys have gotten the U.S.A distribution issues addressed, it's great to see a solid product at that price point being made available more widely.

For anyone who hasn't dealt with Power2max: their customer service is fantastic, and hence my vocality about them here!

-----------------------------------------------------------
Proud member of the GUCrew
Twitter: @tripigeon Blog: Ironpigeon.com
Thoughts on AG sponsorships / community involvement: http://bit.ly/1dQlVDy
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [power2max] [ In reply to ]
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power2max wrote:
RChung wrote:


Nicolas, thanks. So, just to clarify, how does the Power2Max use the angular velocity and torque samples to produce power? ANT+ allows for transmission at 4Hz, right? Are you sending a different value for power and cadence each quarter of a second? Or do you average the angular velocity samples and average the torque samples over some longer time interval (like, a second) and then multiply them to get the average power over the interval and then transmit them?


Hi rchung,

Unfortunately I cannot go into the details of how the electronics exactly work, since it is proprietary. We are aware of the issue you mention above and have taken it into account in our approach. We also test our power meters both with round and Q-rings against the Cyclus2, which is independently calibrated and measures differently, and find that our results are consistent.

Best wishes,
Nicolas

Then without disclosing proprietary information, can you clarify a couple of things?

1. When you say your results with round and non-round rings "are consistent" are you saying that they are exactly the same, and have you tested rings of different degrees of eccentricity?

2. I'm just trying to clarify that your use of the term "samples" is the same as my use of the term. You say that you "sample" cadence at 50Hz. Are you saying that you know how far the crank has rotated in the previous 1/50th of a second and thus know the crank's exact position 50 times a second? Or are you saying that you check every 1/50th of a second to see whether the crank has passed a particular fixed point?
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:

Then without disclosing proprietary information, can you clarify a couple of things?

1. When you say your results with round and non-round rings "are consistent" are you saying that they are exactly the same, and have you tested rings of different degrees of eccentricity?

2. I'm just trying to clarify that your use of the term "samples" is the same as my use of the term. You say that you "sample" cadence at 50Hz. Are you saying that you know how far the crank has rotated in the previous 1/50th of a second and thus know the crank's exact position 50 times a second? Or are you saying that you check every 1/50th of a second to see whether the crank has passed a particular fixed point?

Hi,

re 1: "exactly the same" is difficult to prove / disprove because one cannot use round and oval rings at the same time but has to repeat tests to make comparisons. We find that both with round and oval rings results of these tests are within the margin of error. We regularly use Q-Rings and I have also run Osymetric, but cannot say off the top of my head if we have run all the same tests with both.

re 2: We don't use fixed points such as magnets to determine position, like some other systems, so we don't check for an event of passing a point.

Best
Nicolas

---
power2max
http://www.power2max.com/northamerica
official power meter of Movistar Team
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [power2max] [ In reply to ]
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power2max wrote:

re 2: We don't use fixed points such as magnets to determine position, like some other systems, so we don't check for an event of passing a point.


We already know that, and is not addressing the question asked.

It's pretty simple. Either the P2M is:
i. measuring the crank rotational velocity one per revolution and using that to calculate power, or
ii. it's measuring crank rotational velocity many times per revolution and using these more frequent crank velocity samples to calculate power.

If it's the latter (ii.), we'd appreciate more information on that, at least what you can say without release of proprietary information, e.g. how many times per second or per revolution is crank rotational speed sampled, and to what level of accuracy. Although we might be interested, we are not asking how P2M might do that, which would be the proprietary information I'd have thought.

If however it's (i.), then we know that the P2M will have the same accuracy issues with non-round rings as other crank based power meters, and a claim that accuracy is not affected would be incorrect.

Further, if (i.) applies, I think it's important to then explain the accuracy of determining crank rotational velocity once per revolution, as if it checks say only every 1/50th of a second, then to help understand how the P2M avoids a sample by sample precession "error" in power calculations.
Last edited by: Watt Matters: Aug 17, 13 17:31
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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>Don't quote me on this...but my recollection is that it does.

I got a response from Stages:

"Oval rings or odd shaped rings for that matter do not affect the power reading. Since we use an accelerometer in our power meter that determines the position of the crank itself so the power meter reading would not be effected. Let me know if you have any other questions."


This is slightly vague - like the Power2Max guy - but I take it to mean that they sample velocity at a higher rate than once per revolution (presumably a significantly higher rate), which is certainly possible with an accelerometer.

But he flat out says "do not affect." No mealy-mouthed claim there.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:


I got a response from Stages:
[snip]

But he flat out says "do not affect." No mealy-mouthed claim there.

Cool. That's certainly unambiguous.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Hi all,

I am sorry that my response is not more in-depth, but unfortunately I am not at liberty to go into the technical bits because it always touches on the "how" and that is proprietary. As I said we have tested round and oval rings (Q and I got confirmation that Osymetric, too) against the Cyclus2 and there is no deviation when the oval rings are used.

Thanks for your understanding and happy training and racing,

Nicolas

---
power2max
http://www.power2max.com/northamerica
official power meter of Movistar Team
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [power2max] [ In reply to ]
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power2max wrote:
Hi all,

I am sorry that my response is not more in-depth, but unfortunately I am not at liberty to go into the technical bits because it always touches on the "how" and that is proprietary. As I said we have tested round and oval rings (Q and I got confirmation that Osymetric, too) against the Cyclus2 and there is no deviation when the oval rings are used.

Thanks for your understanding and happy training and racing,

Nicolas

OK, well that's a disappointing response but thanks anyway. We can only ask.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [TriPigeon] [ In reply to ]
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TriPigeon:
Totally agree with you on P2M.
Those guys are awesome and the PM(s) I have from them have been outstanding.
I don't blame Nick for answering as he has done either.
-YT
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [power2max] [ In reply to ]
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power2max wrote:
Dear all,
Regarding our distribution that Ray mentions: check our website this coming Monday, things are moving and there will be interesting news for you guys in the States. Not saying more for now :-).
Cheers
Nicolas

Love ya Michael but this ^^^ will be great news!
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
trail wrote:


I got a response from Stages:
[snip]

But he flat out says "do not affect." No mealy-mouthed claim there.


Cool. That's certainly unambiguous.

Yes, the claim is unambiguous.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [power2max] [ In reply to ]
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power2max wrote:
Hi all,

I am sorry that my response is not more in-depth, but unfortunately I am not at liberty to go into the technical bits because it always touches on the "how" and that is proprietary. As I said we have tested round and oval rings (Q and I got confirmation that Osymetric, too) against the Cyclus2 and there is no deviation when the oval rings are used.

Thanks for your understanding and happy training and racing,

Hmmm...I'm not that familiar with a Cyclus2 erg, but what sort of inertia (i.e. "flywheel effect") does it have? The reason being that if you try to see the "non-round ring inflation" on a trainer without adequate inertia, it will be lessened, or not even present.

That's why I did my testing on a LeMond Revolution (which has the equivalent inertia of an ~94 lb rider) and then also outside in conjunction with a PT wheel: http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/...ose-funky-rings.html

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Watt Matters] [ In reply to ]
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Watt Matters wrote:
Yes, the claim is unambiguous.

Well, how's this for backing up their claim with in-the-field, end user real comparison data: I had a brand new P2M mounted to Rotor 52/36 ROUND chain rings on my P5, and did a head-to-head comparison across my power range with my CompuTrainer as the control. The P2M matched the power curve of my CT to a tee, with the only exception being the P2M indicated about 10W higher across the board (which makes sense since the crank spider doesn't have friction losses to contend with). A few months later I modified my P5 with 52/36 Q-Rings using the same P2M, then ran the same tests. The resulting power curve was identical. Furthermore, the data on my head unit is just as stable with round rings as with Q-Rings. It doesn't get any more unambiguous than that. With a season of training and racing under my belt with the P2M, there has been nothing major to complain about when I think about what I paid for it. As long as it stays serviceable for as long as I expect to own it, then it was a great investment, and only time will tell in that regard.

Dave
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:


>Don't quote me on this...but my recollection is that it does.

I got a response from Stages:

"Oval rings or odd shaped rings for that matter do not affect the power reading. Since we use an accelerometer in our power meter that determines the position of the crank itself so the power meter reading would not be effected. Let me know if you have any other questions."


This is slightly vague - like the Power2Max guy - but I take it to mean that they sample velocity at a higher rate than once per revolution (presumably a significantly higher rate), which is certainly possible with an accelerometer.

But he flat out says "do not affect." No mealy-mouthed claim there.

Ummm...ok...I have some info here telling me that they sample torque over a pedal revolution and only calculate power once per crank cycle (which would imply a constant angular velocity assumption) and then transmit at 4 Hz (updated on the "events", just like Quarq).

So, until shown otherwise, I'll just chalk it up to another case of a PM representative not fully understanding the issue...oh well...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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>Ummm...ok...I have some info here telling me that they sample torque over a pedal revolution and only calculate power once per crank cycle (which would imply a constant angular velocity

Could be. But then again you "having some info here" is slightly less convincing to me! I laid out the problem pretty clearly to the rep, and he responded pretty unambiguously, so I'm rolling with it, so to speak, until demonstrated otherwise.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [djmercer] [ In reply to ]
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djmercer wrote:
Watt Matters wrote:
Yes, the claim is unambiguous.


Well, how's this for backing up their claim with in-the-field, end user real comparison data: I had a brand new P2M mounted to Rotor 52/36 ROUND chain rings on my P5, and did a head-to-head comparison across my power range with my CompuTrainer as the control. The P2M matched the power curve of my CT to a tee, with the only exception being the P2M indicated about 10W higher across the board (which makes sense since the crank spider doesn't have friction losses to contend with). A few months later I modified my P5 with 52/36 Q-Rings using the same P2M, then ran the same tests. The resulting power curve was identical. Furthermore, the data on my head unit is just as stable with round rings as with Q-Rings. It doesn't get any more unambiguous than that. With a season of training and racing under my belt with the P2M, there has been nothing major to complain about when I think about what I paid for it. As long as it stays serviceable for as long as I expect to own it, then it was a great investment, and only time will tell in that regard.

Dave

Was this a standard Computrainer? The CT is a relatively low inertia trainer. That's why Racermate also makes the Velotron, which has a humongous (that's a technical term) flywheel. The effect we're talking about isn't going to be easily spotted on a low inertia trainer, but you can see it on the road where inertia is high.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
>Ummm...ok...I have some info here telling me that they sample torque over a pedal revolution and only calculate power once per crank cycle (which would imply a constant angular velocity

Could be. But then again you "having some info here" is slightly less convincing to me! I laid out the problem pretty clearly to the rep, and he responded pretty unambiguously, so I'm rolling with it, so to speak, until demonstrated otherwise.

I can only say that it is info coming from someone intimately familiar with the calculation algorithm...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [djmercer] [ In reply to ]
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djmercer wrote:
Watt Matters wrote:
Yes, the claim is unambiguous.


Well, how's this for backing up their claim with in-the-field, end user real comparison data: I had a brand new P2M mounted to Rotor 52/36 ROUND chain rings on my P5, and did a head-to-head comparison across my power range with my CompuTrainer as the control. The P2M matched the power curve of my CT to a tee, with the only exception being the P2M indicated about 10W higher across the board (which makes sense since the crank spider doesn't have friction losses to contend with). A few months later I modified my P5 with 52/36 Q-Rings using the same P2M, then ran the same tests. The resulting power curve was identical. Furthermore, the data on my head unit is just as stable with round rings as with Q-Rings. It doesn't get any more unambiguous than that. With a season of training and racing under my belt with the P2M, there has been nothing major to complain about when I think about what I paid for it. As long as it stays serviceable for as long as I expect to own it, then it was a great investment, and only time will tell in that regard.

Dave

The claim I was referring to was the one by Stages, not P2M. But in any case your experiment doesn't resolve the question at hand with respect to measurement of crank rotational velocity.

Head unit display stability isn't relevent to the question.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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Well, to be fair, I did test an Osymetric ring on a CT and DID see the inflation on a Quarq. CT claims that they do some sort of manipulation with the load within a pedal stroke to"mimic"the inertial effects, and the fact that I saw the inflation, along with the pedal feel (it's actually pretty good) I'd have to say there just might be something to CT's claim.

Then again, I'm thinking the comparison of the P2M on a CT described above wasn't exactly rigorous. It is better to mount a round and non-round ring on the same crank and then switch back and forth while in erg mode...which is how I compared them.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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That's interesting. That would be a pretty responsive load generator. My only experience with a CT in ergo mode was before I had a power meter so I defer to your experience but I would have thought it would be easier to see a difference in trainer mode rather than ergo mode.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
That's interesting. That would be a pretty responsive load generator. My only experience with a CT in ergo mode was before I had a power meter so I defer to your experience but I would have thought it would be easier to see a difference in trainer mode rather than ergo mode.
The "pedal feel" on a CT definitely varies depending on the mode. I don't use ERG mode much, rather I vary between %FTP mode and course (simulated gradient) mode. It's more silky to ride in %FTP mode.

I don't know how frequently the load controller adjusts, but data samples used to be available for viewing at ~ 20Hz IIRC from the old software, although I haven't bothered with the old software for quite some time. Something enables them to provide a spin scan number for each of 24 sectors.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
Was this a standard Computrainer? The CT is a relatively low inertia trainer. That's why Racermate also makes the Velotron, which has a humongous (that's a technical term) flywheel. The effect we're talking about isn't going to be easily spotted on a low inertia trainer, but you can see it on the road where inertia is high.


Robert, it is a CT Pro.

For Robert, Watt Matters and other über techies: I think we need to differentiate the people such as yourselves who are capable of spotting an nth Watt difference here and there for purposes beyond simply riding a race with an even effort. For that, all your concerns and efforts to get the minutiae of each newer PM, be it Stages, Vector or the P2M are infinitely appreciated but beyond the scope of the 99th percentile and under. When the thread started to screech through a side alley, I chimed in with the reality check about end-user functionality with the P2M with round vs. oval, because for the purposes of hitting the road, the data is good (enough) and the manufacturer's claim appears to be valid. Anyhow, as fellow pocket protector sporter who loves the details, carry on......!

Edit: Apologies Watt M. I thought you were referring to P2M rather than Stages. No matter. The comment about head stability was due to my interpretation that there would be an indication about the unstable rotational velocity reflected in the head unit if it were so. My mistake as obviously I was wrong!

Dave
Last edited by: djmercer: Aug 20, 13 6:45
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [djmercer] [ In reply to ]
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djmercer wrote:
For Robert, Watt Matters and other über techies: I think we need to differentiate the people such as yourselves who are capable of spotting an nth Watt difference here and there for purposes beyond simply riding a race with an even effort. For that, all your concerns and efforts to get the minutiae of each newer PM, be it Stages, Vector or the P2M are infinitely appreciated but beyond the scope of the 99th percentile and under. When the thread started to screech through a side alley, I chimed in with the reality check about end-user functionality with the P2M with round vs. oval, because for the purposes of hitting the road, the data is good (enough) and the manufacturer's claim appears to be valid. Anyhow, as fellow pocket protector sporter who loves the details, carry on......!

Dave:

You're right, of course, that not everyone cares about this sort of thing (or needs to, or should) -- it's probably a sign that they have a life. OTOH, I actually think that we all end up with better products cuz guys with insomnia and high boredom thresholds ask questions about how things work.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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100% valid. Both are signs of an exceptional mind, working full throttle all the time. Frankly, I'm exhausted just imagining the time folks like you pour into your intuitions, hunches and theories to turn them into validated white paper. I am truly an envious, appreciative fan.

Cheers---
DM
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [djmercer] [ In reply to ]
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djmercer wrote:
Edit: Apologies Watt M.

Thanks but an apology was not necessary. It's all a bit of fun and yes the basic power stuff that most use is not overly demanding on high precision/accuracy.

The quest to understand the minutiae however does have its applications, so we keep trying to tease out what info we can, and will always seek to test and validate claims. Indeed, it's this sort of approach that has added extra arrows one can select to use from a power meter quiver.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
That's interesting. That would be a pretty responsive load generator. My only experience with a CT in ergo mode was before I had a power meter so I defer to your experience but I would have thought it would be easier to see a difference in trainer mode rather than ergo mode.

Well...I not only did the erg mode tests, but I also did a flat course 1 km TT in each ring (as you might have guessed, I was trying to see if the CT was "fooled" somehow in a test similar to what was done in the O'Hara study that Rotor quotes ;-)

Anyway...in both cases, erg and "free", I was struck by the smoothness of the rear wheel sound on the roller and load generator even WITH the Osymetric ring. The flywheel on a CT is so tiny it really looks like it's just on there for show, so I have to say it must be something they're doing in the control algorithm of the load generator. I was impressed...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [djmercer] [ In reply to ]
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djmercer wrote:
RChung wrote:
Was this a standard Computrainer? The CT is a relatively low inertia trainer. That's why Racermate also makes the Velotron, which has a humongous (that's a technical term) flywheel. The effect we're talking about isn't going to be easily spotted on a low inertia trainer, but you can see it on the road where inertia is high.


Robert, it is a CT Pro.

For Robert, Watt Matters and other über techies: I think we need to differentiate the people such as yourselves who are capable of spotting an nth Watt difference here and there for purposes beyond simply riding a race with an even effort. For that, all your concerns and efforts to get the minutiae of each newer PM, be it Stages, Vector or the P2M are infinitely appreciated but beyond the scope of the 99th percentile and under. When the thread started to screech through a side alley, I chimed in with the reality check about end-user functionality with the P2M with round vs. oval, because for the purposes of hitting the road, the data is good (enough) and the manufacturer's claim appears to be valid. Anyhow, as fellow pocket protector sporter who loves the details, carry on......!

Edit: Apologies Watt M. I thought you were referring to P2M rather than Stages. No matter. The comment about head stability was due to my interpretation that there would be an indication about the unstable rotational velocity reflected in the head unit if it were so. My mistake as obviously I was wrong!

Dave

Well...let's put this in perspective then...with the exception of Quarq (who admitted it would be an issue when asked up front), a representative from basically EVERY PM manufacturer that could potentially suffer from the "non-round ring inflation factor" has initially stated that using the those rings on their product would not affect the power readings...only to be shown later to be mistaken.

So...until shown otherwise (I'm sorry, but your anecdote doesn't qualify) or P2M decides to tell us the answer to the simple (and non-proprietary) question "Do you assume constant crank angular velocity within a pedal stroke when making your power calculation? i.e. is your power calculation "event based?" the prudent thing to do would be to assume that they too don't fully understand the issue.

It's not a tiny issue we're discussing either...for a ring with the ovality of the Osymetric, we're talking about a 4% inflation of the power level. At an FTP of 250W, that's a 10W error. If you don't think you need better accuracy than that, then save your money and get a PowerCal instead. Or, just train and pace with an inexpensive HR monitor. Why bother with the expense and compromises (for some) of a power meter?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]
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The first firmware update for the Vectors was released yesterday.

Changes made from version 2.00 to 2.10:

  • Fixed a condition where Vector may not report power or cadence for up to four minutes after performing a static calibration.


https://forums.garmin.com/...rmation&p=209582

So far, I have to say, I've found the Vector pedals to be un-Garminly stable and reliable. I have no real complaints other than being eager for a Vector-aware 910XT firmware to simplify calibration.


@nugget: facebook - flickr - strava - runkeeper - garmin
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [MacNugget] [ In reply to ]
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DC has put up his full review...

http://www.dcrainmaker.com/...n-vector-review.html

Also includes a link to his testing data.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [MacNugget] [ In reply to ]
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MacNugget wrote:
I have no real complaints other than being eager for a Vector-aware 910XT firmware to simplify calibration.


Thanks for the link, Sword. For what it's worth, I finally just broke down and bought an Edge 810 to supplement my 910XT. Adding the power meter left me dissatisfied with only having four data field displays to work with.


@nugget: facebook - flickr - strava - runkeeper - garmin
Last edited by: MacNugget: Sep 13, 13 8:16
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [MacNugget] [ In reply to ]
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My LBS just told me that the Vectors are unavailable October. I'll wait and get them from my LBS just wondering if you all know if other retailers have them in stock?
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Lederman] [ In reply to ]
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I have a brand new pair at my retail store in Kirkland, Wa.
425-821-4301.
Ordered them for a customer but now does not want them. Sending them back to Garmin unless you want to purchase them.

Everyday Athlete
Kirkland, WA
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [LanceCarter] [ In reply to ]
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I would love to but I have to stick with my LBS. I was just wondering if Garmin had sent out a big first shipment and now everybody was dealing with this unavailability. I'm sorry I can't take those off your hands. Thanks for the reply.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Lederman] [ In reply to ]
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Lederman wrote:
My LBS just told me that the Vectors are unavailable October. I'll wait and get them from my LBS just wondering if you all know if other retailers have them in stock?

Not in stock, but I ordered a set from my LBS a couple weeks ago and they're expecting a shipment of them from Garmin next week. Fingers crossed.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]
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Got a call from Garmin Chicago and they have several in stock. I would grab a set, but just got two new Quarqs for my bikes.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Lederman] [ In reply to ]
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It largely comes down to whether your LBS placed orders early for Vector. It's backlogged no matter how you slice it, but those that planned have slightly better availability.

Online shops, and/or online components of LBS's aren't allowed to take orders yet at this point.


-
My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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My LBS found a set! Once I install it and torque them accurately I'll have to choose a method to train with power. Can't wait!
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Sword] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting that he mentions that it's easier to swap over a Quarq than the pedals. I think a lot of people wanted the Vector for quick swaps between bikes.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [durk onion] [ In reply to ]
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durk onion wrote:
Interesting that he mentions that it's easier to swap over a Quarq than the pedals. I think a lot of people wanted the Vector for quick swaps between bikes.

As noted it's easier as long as your bottom brackets are identical.

Otherwise, all bets are off.


-
My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [durk onion] [ In reply to ]
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durk onion wrote:
Interesting that he mentions that it's easier to swap over a Quarq than the pedals. I think a lot of people wanted the Vector for quick swaps between bikes.

Not that surprising to me...I said that 3 years ago when talking about sharing a power meter between a road bike and a TT bike.

It's tough to beat just over a minute ;-)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ibycOXD-Mw0

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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dcrainmaker wrote:
durk onion wrote:
Interesting that he mentions that it's easier to swap over a Quarq than the pedals. I think a lot of people wanted the Vector for quick swaps between bikes.

As noted it's easier as long as your bottom brackets are identical.

Otherwise, all bets are off.

This, for me, is a solid reason for Vectors. My TT bike is GPX and my Roadie is BB30. Furthermore, I have race and training wheels for my TT. This seems to be the best solution for satisfying all 3 possibilities for me. Price is the only thing of concern at this point knowing I could get power much cheaper.....damn I wish they were around the $1000 point!! Or better yet, a one pedal option and estimating power similar to Stages solution.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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dcrainmaker wrote:
durk onion wrote:
Interesting that he mentions that it's easier to swap over a Quarq than the pedals. I think a lot of people wanted the Vector for quick swaps between bikes.


As noted it's easier as long as your bottom brackets are identical.

Otherwise, all bets are off.

Exactly why I'm Jonesing for Vectors. I have BB30 on my road bike (which I use for >90% of training and about 50% of my races*) and a standard English square taper on my TT bike. I use different crank lengths on each and I like the carbon cranks on my roadie. I also have reasons for not going PowerTap. That effectively leaves Vector as the ideal meter for me since I can swap between bikes (I'm not touching that Polar stuff).

I will concede that just before Vector dropped I had myself 99% convinced to buy Quarq for the road bike and worry about power on the TT bike later.

Additional thanks to Ray for being his usual detailed self in the full review. I have about 4mm of chain clearance (on my road bike) and was wondering whether this would be okay with the Vectors.


* - Bike races, before anyone says anything.

----------------------------------
http://ironvision.blogspot.com ; @drSteve1663
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
durk onion wrote:
Interesting that he mentions that it's easier to swap over a Quarq than the pedals. I think a lot of people wanted the Vector for quick swaps between bikes.


Not that surprising to me...I said that 3 years ago when talking about sharing a power meter between a road bike and a TT bike.

It's tough to beat just over a minute ;-)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ibycOXD-Mw0

Indeed, one of the great power-meter videos out there. :)

I'll be re-creating it (with credit) as part of my Quarq Elsa review in a few weeks. Just waiting for my GXP BB to come in for my new road bike (it's what the Elsa and the rest of my units are). Plus, back to back videos will help give folks a good idea of how long it takes between identical situations.


-
My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [drsteve] [ In reply to ]
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A BB30 Quarq works just fine on a threaded BB bike using Rotor's BSA30 BB. That's what I have on my alu P3.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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dcrainmaker wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
durk onion wrote:
Interesting that he mentions that it's easier to swap over a Quarq than the pedals. I think a lot of people wanted the Vector for quick swaps between bikes.


Not that surprising to me...I said that 3 years ago when talking about sharing a power meter between a road bike and a TT bike.

It's tough to beat just over a minute ;-)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ibycOXD-Mw0


Indeed, one of the great power-meter videos out there. :)

I'll be re-creating it (with credit) as part of my Quarq Elsa review in a few weeks. Just waiting for my GXP BB to come in for my new road bike (it's what the Elsa and the rest of my units are). Plus, back to back videos will help give folks a good idea of how long it takes between identical situations.


Yeah, the GXPs are probably the easiest/fastest to swap...and I'm pretty sure I could get sub 1 minute if I practiced at all ;-)

Edit: That said, a BB30 would swap pretty fast too with a spare NDS crank (and pedal) that would be left in each bike. Then just the DS crank would be swapped :-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Sep 14, 13 17:53
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Is this a conversion BB for standard to BB30? So any standard BB could accept BB30 cranks? Can you go the other way as well?
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Goop] [ In reply to ]
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Goop wrote:
Is this a conversion BB for standard to BB30? So any standard BB could accept BB30 cranks? Can you go the other way as well?

It's a BB with threaded cups that has an inner diameter that accepts a 30mm diameter spindle. The caveat is that you need to use a crank that has a spindle length as long as the Rotor version. The SRAM Quarq BB30 models fit that bill, so that crank can be used in a BB30 (and BBRight) frame as well as a BSA threaded frame.

http://www.rotorbikeusa.com/..._bottom_bracket.html

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, that's good to know. I was under the impression that not all BB30 were created equal and the Rotor stuff wasn't necessarily compatible with other BB30.

So would the SRAM Force BB30 cranksets also work on an English BB with this adapter? Is it easier to say what IS or what ISN'T compatible with the BSA30?

(One of my sources of confusion: http://velonews.competitor.com/...he-right-shoe_165957 Last question on the page)


Edit: I should read all the way to the bottom of the page before replying.
I do have another stupid question though... does this mean that the Q-factor of the Quarq is higher than a standard SRAM BB30 crankset due to the longer spindle? Or am I missing something (likely)?

----------------------------------
http://ironvision.blogspot.com ; @drSteve1663
Last edited by: drsteve: Sep 14, 13 18:53
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [drsteve] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think that the Q factor is any greater (I haven't noticed it), and if it is, it can't be by much.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [drsteve] [ In reply to ]
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drsteve wrote:
Thanks, that's good to know. I was under the impression that not all BB30 were created equal and the Rotor stuff wasn't necessarily compatible with other BB30.

So would the SRAM Force BB30 cranksets also work on an English BB with this adapter? Is it easier to say what IS or what ISN'T compatible with the BSA30?

(One of my sources of confusion: http://velonews.competitor.com/...he-right-shoe_165957 Last question on the page)


Edit: I should read all the way to the bottom of the page before replying.
I do have another stupid question though... does this mean that the Q-factor of the Quarq is higher than a standard SRAM BB30 crankset due to the longer spindle? Or am I missing something (likely)?

the sram force bb30 wont work with the BSA30. THe spindle isnt long enough. I use a sram s951 bb30 crankset on my roadbike with bsa30. If I want to use my Elsa, I it's a quick swap.
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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dcrainmaker wrote:
It largely comes down to whether your LBS placed orders early for Vector. It's backlogged no matter how you slice it, but those that planned have slightly better availability.

Online shops, and/or online components of LBS's aren't allowed to take orders yet at this point.
FWIW, I've had em on order at my LBS since the release announcement. Said LBS uses QBP as a distributor instead of Garmin direct. estimated arrival date was this week. I still have yet to see them.

- Pete


Luckily my over eating disorder is offset by my over exercising disorder
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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dcrainmaker wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
durk onion wrote:
Interesting that he mentions that it's easier to swap over a Quarq than the pedals. I think a lot of people wanted the Vector for quick swaps between bikes.


Not that surprising to me...I said that 3 years ago when talking about sharing a power meter between a road bike and a TT bike.

It's tough to beat just over a minute ;-)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ibycOXD-Mw0


Indeed, one of the great power-meter videos out there. :)

I'll be re-creating it (with credit) as part of my Quarq Elsa review in a few weeks. Just waiting for my GXP BB to come in for my new road bike (it's what the Elsa and the rest of my units are). Plus, back to back videos will help give folks a good idea of how long it takes between identical situations.

No to get picky, but it you dont have the same, uh, urgency as the dude in the crank change video and it still only took 4.5 minutes.
The first pedal took you 1:10 to remove and the second 25 seconds - together this should've been 15 seconds. Tops. that's 1:35 lost, so now we're down to 3:00. Take off another :30 for general efficiency and you're down to 2-2:30 for the entire process. Not meaningfully different in the grand scheme of things IMO!

- Pete


Luckily my over eating disorder is offset by my over exercising disorder
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [Big-Pete] [ In reply to ]
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True, but do that enough times at speed and I promise you'll break a pedal pod. Remember it's not just removing the pedal, but the pods and tiny little connector to it.

I could easily get it under 5-minutes, but I'd argue below 4mins and you're getting sloppy with parts one shouldn't get sloppy with on install. ;)


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My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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I'm a Garmin dealer and just received my Vectors today (not a pre-book order either). Was initially told they were on backorder until the 23rd, then 30th but they showed up early. Always a nice surprise.

Now to get them on the bike!
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Re: Garmin Vectors Going Prime-Time [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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FYI - For anyone looking for the 15 mm crowfoot attachment for the torque wrench, Amazon is sold out for 1-2 months as is snap-on. I found one at Zorotools.com for $17.11 shipped.

- Pete


Luckily my over eating disorder is offset by my over exercising disorder
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