Honestly, it's not something I could quantify. Easy=pull not as hard, tempo=harder, sprint=as hard as possible.

I'd be interested to hear what some of the best swimmers have to say.

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"Don't you have to go be stupid somewhere else?"..."Not until 4!"

Maybe you'll get lucky and someone from The Race Club will chime in. I did a swim camp with them in November and based on some of the stats given (such as moles of ATP for two-breathing vs three-breathing) I'd imagine they have that sort of data.

I don't think lbs of force is the right unit of measurement here since really power in the water is what you're asking about. Power = force * velocity, i.e. the speed that your hand moves through the water. AFAIK, the best way to evaluate this on land is to get on a Vasa erg that measures your power output in watts. The poster known as lightheir has one of these so you could look at some his posts and/or send him a PM. Of course, to evaluate your own power, you'd have to find a Vasa erg near you; lots of high quality swim programs including lots of colleges and universities have these, and they prob be willing to let you try one out for 5-10 min if you talk nicely to them. I've seen them and could've jumped on one but I've just always opted to swim instead, since the pool was right there also, i.e. the ones I've seen are set up right on the pool deck.

As an aside, note that power is the product of force times velocity so you can produce the same amount of power either by pulling really hard but more slowly, i.e. slow turnover rate and fewer strokes per length (spl) or fast but with less force, e.g. higher turnover rate and spl. The way any given person chooses to swim is based on his/her personal physiology, body build, etc. Janet Evans' solution to the problem of swimming fast is distinctly diff from Sun Yang's, but yet they both swam pretty fast:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Really, the best way is in the water with a tether connected to some kind of a force measurement device.

I actually have a scale that would work for that application. If I pick up a scuba weight belt and a length of tubing, I could measure that.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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I've read about that but i've never seen one in operation, so i was recommending the Vasa b/c i have seen quite a few of them at diff pools. In any case, I'd love to be tested on one of those if i had the chance:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

funny you should bring this up. We just got a new toy that measures exactly that and more in the water. Here's a photo of the data that we can get from a swimmer in the water.



We just did a lot of testing with it yesterday and I'll be posting some really cool results in the next few days from the testing on the blog posts I've been writing about the pro swim camp.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

How does that system work? I've seen some that were crazy complex.

We designed a force-pull system for water-skiing, that I use every summer. That same inline strain gauge could be connected to a swimmer for a "stall" test. So to determine the net propulsive force and a graph over time.I suppose see if the propulsion is jerky, constant, smooth, high or low.

Then I figure from Swim time (all out) 25 or 50M you should be able to calc a swimmer's hydro-dynamic efficiency.

the point being to compare one swimmer vs another and determine where to prioritize training - reducing drag or increasing propulsion, strength etc.




PS - we measure inline rope load and that gets applied to the boat throttle after a simple proportional equation. keeps the boat speed up so as to counteract prop slip.

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Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
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Looking at the screen it indicates nearly 23 pounds, that is huge

As I have attempted a transition to evf there has been a discovery of how much power can be applied to the water using the hand + forearm relative to hand only. Based on way too many years of swimming without evf it seems one must use evf to gain adequate traction to apply any significant force. Am I mistaken ?? Why even bother to teach anything but evf?

Do a google scholar search for tethered swimming force or Toussaint swimming force and you should get some sources.

"well trained" swimmers seem to max out at 35 pounds for 1 minute tests, but it varies widely.

If it works like most I have seen, you do some max swims with resistance and some without. If you assume that the applied force was the same between all the trials then you can work out the active drag parameters of a swimmer.

Then you use the same reel setup to measure speed, no resistance added. By looking at variations in velocity through the stroke you can see where the peaks in force are.

There's another system that does similar but measures pressure drop across the swimmer's hands with a sensor. Same idea though, you can match with video and a speed sensor as above to see where the speed and force peaks are.

It's a box that sits on the deck. The swim puts a belt on that is attached to the box with a line and they swim out against it. The box measures speed, power, distance, etc every 60th of a second and its connected to a computer with software that can display and capture all of the data channels. Also has some built in test programs to look at stroke efficiency from different perspectives. The test we were run the other day was based on the Max Power Model (MPM) which is the velocity over a given distance and then peak power. You plot it on a graph and you can start to pull out some interesting stuff.

We'll do a bunch of quick studies to test out some ideas and publish them over the coming months on what is and what isn't effective swim training for triathletes.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Well that's cool - it combines all of what I was thinking about into a single moving test (vs my idea of using a stall force, combined with free swim times). What the box probably does is apply a resistance or torque, then measures speed of rollout, to yield power. This is the horsepower equation of torque x rpm.

It looks like your swimmer took a breath every 6 or so strokes, if the "blip" in the sine wave is the breath cycle. You'll get the results of the stroke pattern (to id left or right weakness for example), where as in my test scenario you would not.

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Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

Exactly. You can also sync up a video frame by frame with the graph data to really see exactly where and when power drops in a stroke.

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Keeping your hold on the water (constant pressure) when swimming freestyle requires strength but mostly technique and practice. Your hand should move very little underwater as your body goes forward. Here's an article just released today about using body rotation (core) and couple that with the radius and angular velocity of the arm during recovery to create a force to pull against. http://bit.ly/1H6rNGZ
Stretch Cordz are great if you are using them with the correct technique. There are a lot of variables like stance, elbow, hand and shoulder position throughout the pull back and release, spine position etc. Are these the kind you use? http://shop.theraceclub.com/...stretch-paddles.html

Also, if you come to the Race Club, we just got a Velocity Meter that you can be measured with lots of stats!

thanks for the article

delving into the anatomy and muscle physiology of swimming is quite an interesting endeavor

I am using the cords with paddles as you have pictured. I have been using yellow for rapid movement and red for strength. At some time in the future it would be fun to be able to drive the reds at the same speed and full stroke length as I can with the yellows. Now when I use the reds I can manage the front 2/3 of the stroke, leaving the push out to a separate interval. As I get stronger I hopefully will be able to do a full cycle on the reds. A goal of using the cords has been to develop muscle memory of correct form and sequential muscle activation with improved power . Based on my swims since I have started this, the results have been quite rewarding with improved stroke dynamics, faster turnover, decreased stroke count and higher speed.Still looking for the downside.

Getting smacked in the face with a broken cord. They intimidate me.

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With head down and safety glasses on i just hope the cable goes over the top

Where is all of this going. Bike training on the trainer and commuting in on a cross bike. Swim training by trying to pull the front gate down with stretch cords. The really dumb part is that for lack of time half of my running mileage is achieved while pushing my bike home in the dark. As an MD in family med, if a patient told me they did this kind of stuff I would seriously question their sanity. Maybe I already got hit by one of the cords. Hmmm

Well off to run home and do it all again tomorrow.

Yes stop the insanity :)

Qty Item
1 Fish scale with memory tab
1 Carabiner & strap
1 Surfboard leash
1 Finis Tic-toc waist belt

Anyone care to guess where this is going?

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Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

and what did you learn

There have been folks who looked into it who have shown that tethered force is sufficiently different from force when free swimming as to call into question the results you get as being valid for estimates of how hard you pull when swimming.

However, there is a solid correlation between tethered force and speed.

To that end you can measure your own and compare to published data you might find to see if given your speed you are on the high side or low side of the speed vs tethered force curve.

Fun and interesting numbers to look at for sure.. but really not the best use of time.
Focus more on the velocity of the arm being thrown OVER the water (and in front of you) vs how much force you can push on the water (behind you).
good luck

I swam in a continuous pool, once, where they fitted force sensors to your hands. I don't have a record of the data available to me at the moment, but IIRC it was in the region of 40N of force with each hand to swim at 1:15/100m pace, which was the pool's max speed.

Go to a gym and find the overhead pull-down cable machine. Put a single-handle pull on it. Kneel on the ground and reach up and pull down on it like you're swimming. Whatever weight feels like you are swimming is a good approximation. If you want to get faster, pull more weight while being more streamlined.

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