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drafting - drag train on swim
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In my last race, around half way through the 1.5 km swim of an olympic distance, I realized I had someone right behind me. After checking a good 5-6 minutes later, I saw the same person behind me.
I tried shaking the person off by picking up my speed, which I was able to do. I was surprised at how much speed I was able to pick up even though it was the final 300-400 meters of the swim.

My question is: is drafting in the water like on a bike, in that having someone right behind you can also make you faster?
(I believe I was able to go faster in the last part of the swim because the person behind me was drafting so well, eliminating the vortex right behind my legs from coming close together and slowing me down... )

so, for swimming at the exact same speed, the effort needed is SWIM ALONE (more effort) > SWIM IN FRONT > SWIM BEHIND (less effort)
(in front and behind would be in line to form a "drag train")

If so, I think I will try to get closer to the swim leaders, and let some slightly faster swimmers draft me, and then draft them when they pass me.
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Re: drafting - drag train on swim [carlosru83] [ In reply to ]
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Having someone draft off you is more work on the person pulling. IDK about being faster for the person up front. Never really thought about it before. I think my guess would be no, however I am unsure. I wouldn't hold out hope that someone will answer that for you. Were not allowed to talk about swimming on here anymore.

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "
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Re: drafting - drag train on swim [Leddy] [ In reply to ]
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We're not allowed to use paragraphs either. To the OP, I have no idea. I don't even know how you'd test it. It is a good question though.

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Re: drafting - drag train on swim [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
We're not allowed to use paragraphs either. To the OP, I have no idea. I don't even know how you'd test it. It is a good question though.

You're breaking rules just by answering in here.

I really wanted to type "your" just to rankle some feather

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "
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Re: drafting - drag train on swim [Leddy] [ In reply to ]
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Leddy wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
We're not allowed to use paragraphs either. To the OP, I have no idea. I don't even know how you'd test it. It is a good question though.


You're breaking rules just by answering in here.

I really wanted to type "your" just to rankle some feather

yore braking rules two.

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Re: drafting - drag train on swim [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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(steps outside to read the rools, while people continue making jokes about my post)
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Re: drafting - drag train on swim [carlosru83] [ In reply to ]
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The poster formerly known as DesertFox is unhappy that we talk about swimming in a triathlon forum....



http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...;;page=unread#unread


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Re: drafting - drag train on swim [carlosru83] [ In reply to ]
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Well, air, just like water, is a fluid and will react in the same way. One is just more dense, so it stands to reason that the same rules apply in drafting for both.

However, in the water the mechanism for drafting is much different than for a bike. (separation varies through the stroke, speed is much slower, additional turbulence is created with your feet, etc), so I'm not sure if there is a gain for the person in front of not.

It would certainly be a complicated cfd calculation.

"...the street finds its own uses for things"
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Re: drafting - drag train on swim [Leddy] [ In reply to ]
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Leddy wrote:
Having someone draft off you is more work on the person pulling. IDK about being faster for the person up front. Never really thought about it before. I think my guess would be no, however I am unsure. I wouldn't hold out hope that someone will answer that for you. Were not allowed to talk about swimming on here anymore.

Actually drafting (closely) does help the rider in front by minimizing the area of low pressure behind the lead rider. The lead rider is indeed doing more work than the drafting rider but he/she is doing less work than if they were riding alone at a given speed.

E.g.

Rider A solo
-Rider A holds 25mph at 250w

Rider B drafts Rider A
-Rider A holds 25mph at 240w
-Rider B holds 25mph at 200w

Does this work with swimming as well? It could. In my mind what would be optimum for the lead swimmer would be to have one swimmer close on the right hip and one swimmer close on the left hip. Assuming they were all about the same height this would increase the "hull length" which would increase the maximum theoretical speed while decreasing the work necessary at lower speeds.
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Re: drafting - drag train on swim [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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I like this idea... that way I can tell myself when I draft the first place swimmer the entire distance and sprint past him on the way to T1 that I waa actually doing him a favor!
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Re: drafting - drag train on swim [carlosru83] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, it will make you faster - with someone on your butt; you will want to go faster.

As has been mentioned, water is a denser fluid than air. If we take what we "know" about air; it should apply in water. Speeds are slower, but density is higher.

We are displacement hulls in the water, and longer displacement hulls can go faster than shorter ones.

I believe that drafting in swimming can make all swimmers in the train faster.
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Re: drafting - drag train on swim [carlosru83] [ In reply to ]
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One of my former labmates was studying the hydrodynamics of fish swimming in schools using CFD. She found that if two fish were swimming directly in line, the lead fish received a benefit if they were very close together.

It is possible that this would hold for swimmers, but I'm not sure if a close enough separation can be maintained between the two swimmers. Kinda wish I was still working in a towing tank, would be a fun experiment.
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Re: drafting - drag train on swim [Rumpled] [ In reply to ]
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I think I have learned to stop worrying, and love the drafter.

cheers y'all.
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Re: drafting - drag train on swim [carlosru83] [ In reply to ]
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carlosru83 wrote:
I think I have learned to stop worrying, and love the drafter.

cheers y'all.


Have you ever drafted off someone during a swim ? IMO there's a lot more to love there. It can be a little tricky especially finding the right feet but when you do it's awesome.

ETA - no one was mocking your post. It was all about being told in another,albeit trollish, thread not to talk about swimming on a triathlon board.

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "
Last edited by: Leddy: Jun 29, 16 13:18
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Re: drafting - drag train on swim [Leddy] [ In reply to ]
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I have tried, but I am too inexperienced in doing so to stay close enough, and also following the bubbles isn't too easy for me to modulate and keep a constant speed. I would rather keep my head down while swimming, with sighting every 10 strokes or so if I have enough space to swim without looking ahead.
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Re: drafting - drag train on swim [carlosru83] [ In reply to ]
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Instead of feet, you can try the hip. If you can get on the hip to the side you breathe you might find it easier to drag.

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "
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Re: drafting - drag train on swim [Leddy] [ In reply to ]
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i could be talking rubbish here, but i seem to recall reading somewhere (maybe trustworthy) that while having someone on your feet is beneficial to both, having someone on your hip slows you down but is even better for the person drafting if you get the right position. of course drafting someone who you're slowing down doesn't do anybody any good, unless you wouldn't otherwise be able to hold their pace.

so as a crap swimmer but decent rider & runner, i guess i should swim on people's hips ;)
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Re: drafting - drag train on swim [Leddy] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure it works the same because of how dense water is and the very low speeds involved. Plus you have the effect of surface tension as well. It helps on a bicycle, because your sort of cleaning up the air coming off the lead rider which reduces their drag.


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Re: drafting - drag train on swim [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
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For sure the physics of it will be slightly different. But I believe both with cycling and with swimming, the medium (air or water) does undergo turbulent flow near the racer.
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Re: drafting - drag train on swim [Leddy] [ In reply to ]
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Drafting works in Nascar, for both the leading and following car. That is well established. I remember a car test years ago (I think it was Road & Track mag). Honda Civics of all things. IIRC a solo car managed about 96mph on the oval track. By the time they had 4 identical cars drafting closely, the top speed got to around 105mph. That's signification

I can only assume it works for swimming (and cycling) as well.

The real question in my mind is whether the increase in speed for the leader is measureable and/or noticeable in the real world.

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"
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Re: drafting - drag train on swim [carlosru83] [ In reply to ]
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I believe it was JonnyO who said he had done some relatively decent quality testing of it and found that toes or hip, either way, slowed down the swimmer in front a bit. Having somebody on your feet wasn't as big of an impact, but it still required greater effort for the same speed.
The reason for all of this is because that second swimmer's bow wake disrupts/interacts with the lead swimmer.

IG: idking90
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Re: drafting - drag train on swim [iank] [ In reply to ]
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I could see that now that I think of it. It's like going from the hull and the wake of a cigarette boat to the hull and the wake of a wake boarding boat.
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Re: drafting - drag train on swim [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
.....this would increase the "hull length" which would increase the maximum theoretical speed while decreasing the work necessary at lower speeds.

This is true and the forward motion of the second person would even "push" a small pressure wave at the leader giving a small increase. However, applying this to two swimmers the effect would be minimal but could possibly be felt a little.

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Re: drafting - drag train on swim [carlosru83] [ In reply to ]
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I think the density and viscosity of water is going to make it react differently than air. Not to say it won't have a similar affect. It will just be dampened greatly and you likely aren't going to see the same level of benefits "hydro"dynamically. Plus, you are imparting a lot of fluid movement into the medium itself with your stroke and kick. So you are breaking up the typical flow around your body in a way that you aren't doing on the bike. Not to say that stops the situation from having a benefit, just that I don't know if you can assume that since it's helpful in one, that it is in another. They may not be remotely comparable. In fluid dynamics, it's very hard to make assumptions without testing though. And it seems like swimmers would notice benefits. Draft swimmers obviously do.

I do have a question about being the drafter though. How do you know what is the right foot to grab onto and follow? I've drafted for short periods and it felt much easier, but that could have just been because I was going slower overall. I always eventually overtook the person at some point. Do you pretty much just swim your same effort level and hope there is someone you come up upon who is just fast enough to stay right in front? Or is there ever a time to feel like you may be holding back, but stay on the persons foot because the reduced effort is just because they are giving you a pull? How do you tell the difference in open water where it's hard to determine your exact pace.
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Re: drafting - drag train on swim [KG6] [ In reply to ]
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Great question. I think you either have to go by position (if you are near the front you assume you are among fast swimmers) or just trust your perceived effort. If you notice someone ahead of you, sometimes you will make a small but noticeable effort to catch up. Don't pass the swimmer yet and see how it feels to stay behind. Then if you are going too easy, go ahead and pass. And if someone passes you, by all means make a reasonable effort to draft the faster swimmer, and you might be surprised that you can stay right behind (hopefully by making yourself faster without slowing him or her down! but this seems to be still a mystery, for now, at least within this forum post).
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