I did dry needling on my shin for shin splints. Treatment took a few minutes. was it painful? yes and no. Nothing unbearable. It depends on where they put the needle. I had one in the bottom of my foot once, that hurt like a SOB. Most of the time it's just a brief wincing pain.

Pain relief was immediate (like I could limp in to physio, then run pain free the next day). The problem was it was a bandaid solution and didn't address why I was getting pain. Long story short after a few months of recurring treatment (because the pain kept coming back) I went out to run one day and felt instant sharp pain: stress fracture. Screwed up my summer of racing and months of training.

Not sure what your problem is but if I were to do needling again, I would be very aware that it might be fixing the pain, but not the problem, and that can lead to further issues.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

thanks for your reply. I have actually been addressing the issue with several PT exercises for the past 11 months. I think it may be some scar tissue or something that I haven't been able to break up with massage, graston and rolling, but what do I know!

I had it done in my glute for maybe 5 sessions this year. It definitely helped release the tightness and pain. I don't think it did anything to address the overall issue, but it enabled me to train for Boston. After Boston I started to work on the problem through strength/stretching and have not been back for any treatments.

I had a quad issue where I spent literally thousands of dollars trying to fix over the course of a year. I saw several of the top PTs, Chiros, you name it, in Southern CA. I finally went to Endurance Rehab in Scottsdale, AZ and did dry needling. My quad issue was gone after 6 treatments.

It can be uncomfortable but I was at the point where I would do whatever someone said to make the issue go away. My guy in Scottsdale connects up an e-stim to the needles as well.

i would highly recommend doing some research on the validity of all types of acupuncture. the science overwhelmingly shows it does not work.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-doesnt-work/


http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-does-not-work-for-back-pain/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_needling#Efficacy

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

How can you honestly post or believe this is scientifically true? I can find many other sources saying the opposite. Acupuncture has been around for thousands of years. Pretty sure it must work placebo or not. I am not saying it works for everything or everyone nor is it a substitute for all medicine. Previous posters, including myself, have had it done successfully. This is firsthand knowledge it does work, to which the reason I do not have to post any links or sources. So your post is pointless.

Dry needling is very different from acupuncture. Dry needling is met to "reset" the muscles so if there is an underlying problem causing the trigger points from forming in the first place, such as a muscle imbalance, once the trigger points are removed it allows you to address that problem. Dry needling is extremely effective, and as mentioned most people get instant relief from the first session. Like I said though, your physical therapist should also then be strengthening and stretching the appropriate muscles once the trigger points are gone.

The age of the technique is irrelevant to its efficacy. Dry needling is slightly different from acupuncture in that it is not guided by traditional thoughts on sham meridian points. Studies done on dry needling have been small in sample size and lax on controls. Anecdotally it may be no better then placebo and in the wrong hands can do some harm.

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mikebikefit.com
Facebook: Cordova Bicycle Fitting
F.I.S.T Certified

How can you honestly post or believe this is scientifically true?

Because I understand how science works. I can read and parse scientific studies, digest the information and as a result make an informed decision.

I can find many other sources saying the opposite.

No doubt. They will not be honest, reputable, or accurate sources.

Acupuncture has been around for thousands of years.

So what. That says nothing about its efficacy. This is a logical fallacy known as the appeal to antiquity. Just because something has been around for a long time doesn't mean it's good, it works, or should be continued.

Previous posters, including myself, have had it done successfully. This is firsthand knowledge it does work, to which the reason I do not have to post any links or sources. So your post is pointless.

The plural of anecdote is not data. If it works as claimed, double blinded trials would demonstrate it. They don't. People make all sorts of silly claims citing "firsthand knowledge". Some people claim to visit other galaxies with their best friend aliens. Seems kinda silly to believe them just because they say so. Wouldn't you want some evidence for their claims?

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

Ok. I can't stand elitist, closed minded individuals.

Science cannot explain many things in this world and many things are yet to be discovered, or am I wrong in believing this too?

I am not trying to argue what any article does or does not say. Any form of medicine or any subject has it's critics. That is a good thing. All I am saying is I and many others for thousands of years before me have had acupuncture . It worked for me many times. If something has proven to work for me, does that still make it not work? It may not work it all aspects, just like a prescription drug will not treat all symptoms.

I do not understand your argument, you have none. Only telling me "you understand science" and siting a bunch of sources. Should we talk about politics next because I can site some sources that will say why one party is right and not the other and then claim this as fact like you too.

It is ok to have different viewpoints and opinions but to blatently come on here and claim what you think as fact and everyone else is wrong is just silly.

Ok. I can't stand elitist, closed minded individuals.

Me too. Are there any closed minded individuals here besides you? I am ALWAYS wiling to change my mind to fit the evidence. Clearly you arent. Ironic to call me closed minded.

Science cannot explain many things in this world and many things are yet to be discovered, or am I wrong in believing this too?

I agree.

All I am saying is I and many others for thousands of years before me have had acupuncture . It worked for me many times. If something has proven to work for me, does that still make it not work?

Twice already you have been told the silliness of this argument. Perhaps you can see the fallacy if we use it on a different subject......

Rape and murder are good because it's been around for hundreds of thousands of years.

See what a terrible argument that is? My example was orders of magnitude longer than yours . Does that make the argument stronger?

I do not understand your argument, you have none. Only telling me "you understand science" and siting a bunch of sources.

That's how arguments work. You make a claim and cite sources.

It is ok to have different viewpoints and opinions but to blatently come on here and claim what you think as fact and everyone else is wrong is just silly.

I claimed what numerous scientific studies show as fact. I'm not the one making silly claims here. Again, the irony is thick.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

How am I closed minded? I've stated that it does not work for all things or all people and that is OK. You are the one that is making claims to blanket an entire subject saying it doesn't work. Should we talk about why eating meat is good or bad for you. For some it is some maybe not. I am assuming you maybe not? Does this mean that eating vegan is right? It works for some and others not, just like certain medicine, politics, religion, etc. if I was closed minded I would take one side and find sources saying why one way is right and not be open to hearing opposing viewpoints. If I was closed minded I would be making blanket statements saying that acupuncture works always in all ways. P.S. I did not and will not claim this.

If you've had acupuncture and it did not work I would not argue that it did not work for you. In fact, if that is how you replied to the OP I would have never responded to you because that post would be respectable.



The OP came on asking if anyone has had dry needling done successfully. Have you had it done unsuccessfully? If so answer with that, as that is what the OP was asking. He asked for first hand experience. He asked nothing about science or how much you know about science or how to find sources on the internet stating claims.

I am far from closed minded if I am the only one taking middle ground saying it has worked for me so I believe it works. That is a valid argument over someone searching the internet for sources saying the opposite. I'd assume you are a doctor of western medicine or of the similar field?

I was very skeptical of acupuncture going in about 8 years ago. I used to joke about my wifie being a little too touchy-feely in some of these types of things. Finally, after nagging injuries, I went in, purely to humor her (and get her off my back). So, no placebo was going to work on my b/c I went in thinking it was bunk.

I don't know how it works. I don't know why it works. I don't care. It works (for me, YMMV).

You cannot just go in once and expect to be fixed. It takes a number of weeks. I started going 2x per week for about a month, then once per week for about another two months. I go about 1 - 2 x per month now, unless I have a specific issue.

Regarding pain, most of the time it does not hurt. Location of needles depends on the practitioner. The ones on the or around the knees do not really hurt. On the shins, it stings for a second, then is fine. On the top of the foot and between the toes sting going in. Bottom of the foot hurts like a bitch! But, it is a quick (albeit painful) sting. The needles do not hurt once they are in. Like said, most areas you barely feel. I couple kinda suck going in.

EDIT TO ADD: My acupuncturist also does dry needling, so, I am referring to both when I talk about it working and how it feels. My therapist attaches an e-stim to the needles as well (like someone above mentioned). Works very well.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Ignore the bickering above this post. Scientists don't even know fully how or why Aspirin works, but it's been prescribed to billions of people. And placebos have been empirically shown to work, nearly as effectively as real medicine and treatments, so that's all the justification I need.

I just had my first dry-needling session a few days ago after months of exploring other types of PT, chiro, etc. I didn't feel "immediate relief" but I did feel improvement. I was told anywhere from 2 to 5 sessions because of the severity of my issue, and how long these muscles have been working dysfunctionally. My therapist is also working hard to increase my mobility and strength along with the needling. there's no illusion that needling will be the panacea. Just another useful tool. Good luck!

Scientists don't even know fully how or why Aspirin works, but it's been prescribed to billions of people.


http://en.wikipedia.org/...of_action_of_aspirin


a better example would be keppra, which my son takes and controls his seizures amazingly well. however you are missing the important difference. knowing how it works is seperate from demonstrating that it works. efficacy can be demonstrated in well controlled trials for many medications in which the mechanism is not well understood. the same cannot be said for dry needling.

And placebos have been empirically shown to work, nearly as effectively as real medicine and treatments,


no they havent. when placebos are shown to be as effective as a treatment it means the treatment doesnt work.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

You are the one that is making claims to blanket an entire subject saying it doesn't work.


yes, because the evidence is overwhelmingly on my side. if the evidence suddenly showed the opposite then i would change my position. thats the way good science works.

Should we talk about why eating meat is good or bad for you. For some it is some maybe not. I am assuming you maybe not? Does this mean that eating vegan is right?



sure. start a thread. i think however, if you do a search, you will find threads here where i argue against other vegans/vegetarians here when they make unscientific claims about the subject. its important in all areas to be truthful about claims.


if I was closed minded I would take one side and find sources saying why one way is right and not be open to hearing opposing viewpoints.


thats not whats happening here. the point of scientific inquiry is not to start out with a position and then find evidence to support it. its to see what the evidence shows and base your position on that. when study after study after study shows that something doesnt work and someone continues to defend it, they are being dishonest and closed minded. ironically, they are the ones who usually loudly proclaim that the evidence based side is being closed minded.

imagine going to a murder trial where video, dna, and fingerprints all show that a defendant is guilty. how silly would it be for them to keep insisting that the prosecutor, judge and jury all all closed minded because they based their decision on the evidence when mr killer says different?

the more strong evidence there is the more powerful an argument becomes. thats where we are with the dry needling and acupuncture debate. unfortunately many people chose to be willfully ignorant.

if dry needling is effective then well controlled studies can be done and replicated showing it is. unfortunately, it seems to be not an effective treatment unless its used with real medicine or therapies. which is the same as saying it doesnt really do anything.

when the evidence says otherwise then i will change my mind.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

This is an interesting topic to me because I am a physical therapist. No I do not do dry needling; performing it in my state has been restricted to only LAc/DOMs.

This discussion is very similar to spinal manipulation. Once there was no evidence that it helped at all. Doing it incorrectly could do harm/possibly kill. DCs, PTs, DOs and MDs argued about the lack of evidence and efficacy despite being a treatment that has been around since the dark ages. Many people would say it helped and others would say that it doesn't. There was a lot of evidence that said it did nothing did I mention there was a lot.

What has been discovered is there is a subset of people that can help. We now have a clinical prediction rule for manipulation of the lumbar spine. The evidence is mounting that it can consistently help people in this population who meet the criteria.

My wife and I have discussed the efficacy and evidence for cranial sacral work. I said I didn't work and the evidence supported me. I will never for get her response: "subtle work like cranial sacral takes years to get good at and if research is done by multiple practitioners, with varying levels of experience, a large study may result in it being shown to be no better than a placebo." "A lack of evidence does not always mean that it doesn't work. It just may not have adequate funding to do the research that is needed."

I do not know if dry needling works or not, that really isn't the point. (No pun intended.) The question is does the patient get long term relief from the treatment. As a patient it is ok to be a skeptic, but if your not getting relief from other treatments, you should find an experienced practitioner and test it yourself. Your study, n=1, would be simple. Does just the introduction of this treatment help you or not over 6-8 treatment. Have the practitioner make very detailed notes, it then can become part of the greater body of knowledge.

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Seth Wilkie DPT, ACSM-HFS

My wife and I have both had acupuncture performed on us. It was worthless. The latest review of studies I've read mentioned that the needles do nothing and that the effectiveness of the treatment had more to do with the amount of time that was spent with the patient and not where the needles were placed (or even if the therapist used toothpicks instead of actual needles!).

At the same time, if it works for you then it works. The placebo effect is still an effect.

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Dry needling is not the same as acupuncture. Yes, the needles used are both called acupuncture needles, but they are indeed different techniques. (Think tri bike vs. TT bike: same tool, different purposes).

In my clinic (eight PTs on various schedules, four of whom dry needle), dry needling is explained as a tool to loosen up muscles and calm them down to a point where they can be worked on, be that ROM, strength, or whatever needs to be done. Actually, most people in my clinic poke fun at it as hoodoo, because it kind of is. However, I would estimate that 75-80% of the individuals that we try it on respond positively. I would say 50% get a second or third dry needling session (the rest either hate it or don't think it helps).

A couple of months ago, our oldest PT walked in and said, "Man, I make fun of that dry needling stuff, but sometimes it helps. [Patient] walked in with 30 deg ROM. Threw a few needles at her and she was at 45 deg. Damn."

Try it. If it helps, keep doing it. If it doesn't helps, no harm, no foul.

"You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? Medicine." —Tim Minchin

Saw him live :)

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

Ive had both dry needling and accupuncture done and found both help to a degree.

My wife had absolutely spectacular results with accupuncture (along with electro-stim) used to break up a huge mass of scar tissue on her left inner thigh after cancer surgery.
Her surgeon was amazed as was everyone that had saw the mass before several weeks of accupuncture (2 times per week over about 4 weeks).

Does it work? Id say yes, but n=2 does not make it fact

I am not sure the evidence is on your side. This thread is about dry needling not acupuncture. The only article you have cited about dry needling is the wikipedia, which, although not an irrefutable source of information, does not even say it does not work. All it says is there is not enough evidence that it works.

Perhaps it would help reading and understanding before posting. And if you quote some source, please read it as well and try to understand it and the fit to the thread before doing so.

It also helps to think about the economics of the pharmaceutical and medical industry before assuming the validity of any article. It shouldn't surprise any adult that they can be strongly conditioned by the industry.

By the way, in my n=1 test dry needling works extremely well.

If only the truth could be told! All those studies about the efficacy of dry-needling and other alternate therapies buried by big pharma.

Then we could finally all benefit from the treatments that naturopaths, chiropractors and witch doctors can, nay, should be offering us all.