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comparing the Roka Maverick Pro and Elite wetsuits
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I'm currently demoing the Roka Maverick Pro and Elite wetsuits, still undecided about which to keep. I got the Elite a few weeks ago, and with the current sale, was able to get the Pro for the same price. I thought it would be a straightforward upgrade, and I'd keep the Pro and return the Elite, but after a first swim in the Pro yesterday, I'm not so sure. In addition to being interested in whether others have experienced both and what their verdicts were, I notice there's very little out there comparing them, so I figured this might be useful to some. I'll note my first impressions below, and will update once I get in another swim or two.

The Pro uses more flexible #40 neoprene in the upper portions of the suit, versus #39 in the Elite. The difference was more subtle than I expected, and one unexpected consequence of it seemed to be a little bit of armpit chafing (despite being properly seated). But it was extremely minor, don't think it'll be much of an issue in the final decision.

The Pro has an Aerodome neoprene center panel versus the non-Aerodome neoprene in the Elite, and my impression is it was slightly more buoyant, and also contributed to more dynamic rotation, together with the different leg construction described below.

The Pro has strips of thinner neoprene running down the sides of both legs, which is supposed to help with more dynamic rotation. I definitely found the Pro to rotate more dynamically, i.e. to have more "snap," though it also felt like I could easily over-rotate. And my legs felt like they sank slightly more during rotation as a function of that reduced buoyancy, though the highly buoyant neoprene on the legs in general kept them near the surface even with minimal kicking.

The thinner neoprene strips do act as channels for a little bit of water entry, both because they cause the ankles to seal a tad less robustly and because they leave a little gap between the skin and suit that runs all the way up the sides of the legs. The effect is very modest, and unavoidable given the design, since the thinner neoprene either needs to align with the thicker neoprene on the outside of the suit, as it does, or on the inside, which would leave a groove running down the outside of the leg.

The Pro has fabric panels on the forearms, where other suits put their catch panels. Like some others, I am skeptical of the catch panel trend, I'm not convinced they actually allow more water to be pulled, plus they create unneeded complexity in a part of the suit that gets stressed repeatedly. Roka's panels aren't supposed to be catch panels, but are instead supposed to aid proprioception, i.e. feel, of the water. I'm not sure I get it, i.e. if I can in fact feel a little more of the water as it flows over my forearms, and that's a pretty subtle effect through the fabric, why would that help my stroke mechanics? Does anyone actually like this feature, i.e. if Roka were building you a custom wetsuit, would you have this included? It makes the suit come off a little less cleanly, insulate a little less well (in a spot where lots of blood flows right under the surface of the skin), and I suspect it's a failure point down the road. I find it, frankly, a bit gimmicky (and I say that as someone who's generally a huge Roka fanboy).

The Pro neckline feels slightly higher to me, though eyeballing both suits, they appear identical. Functionally this didn't seem to matter, though I preferred the feeling of the Elite neckline (assuming there is in fact a difference, maybe I was imagining it?).

Both the Pro and the Elite feel like they put me in an optimal swimming position, with a slight "downhill swimming" feeling. This is a nice contrast to some other wetsuits out there, which swathe the upper body in thicker neoprene and float it too high relative to the legs.

Curious if others have compared these suits and what their reactions were. Also interested if folks who just have experience with one of the suits want to chime in. Part of me wishes I'd ordered a Comp, too, just to be able to compare, though my guess is I'd find the Elite a significant upgrade over it, so I doubt it would ultimately be in the running.
Last edited by: niccolo: Oct 3, 15 11:46
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Re: comparing the Roka Maverick Pro and Elite wetsuits [niccolo] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the comparison. I was hoping to put off my wetsuit upgrade until next year but am intrigued by the Roka suits on sale. Not to thread hijack, but does anyone have any feedback on the Comp for a beginner swimmer (17:00 for my last 1k yard test). I have the cheap Xtera sleeveless now and it hasn't held up well (seems to tear easy). I really like the more expensive Roka suits but also like being married and just upgraded my crankset and bought a power meter!
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Re: comparing the Roka Maverick Pro and Elite wetsuits [Toefuzz] [ In reply to ]
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Happily. Sadly have no insight on the Comp. But you could always demo it, and maybe one of the higher-end suits, and return one or both and be out only shipping fees. Or if you've got time, this time next year the 2016 suits should be going on deep sale. :)

I would caution you against expecting more fingernail tear durability out of another suit, as compared to your Xterra. Xterra uses the same Yamamoto SCS skins as the Rokas, and if anything their neoprene is less flexible than what would be found on a higher-end suit, and therefore less tear-prone. You've got to keep your fingernails away from the wetsuit skin, through a combination of pulling on the inside instead of the outside and using gloves or a swim cap when pulling on the outside. The standard instruction about pulling with the pads of your fingers I don't think is sufficient, because you can still get a lot of fingernail contact.
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Re: comparing the Roka Maverick Pro and Elite wetsuits [niccolo] [ In reply to ]
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You sure Xterra is not using Sheico neoprene and not Yamamoto for some of their suits? Might want to check on that. ;)

Best,
Rob

---
rob canales
ceo + co-founder at ROKA
http://www.roka.com
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Re: comparing the Roka Maverick Pro and Elite wetsuits [rokasports] [ In reply to ]
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rokasports wrote:
You sure Xterra is not using Sheico neoprene and not Yamamoto for some of their suits? Might want to check on that. ;)

Best,
Rob

Xterra makes explicit reference to Yamamoto, specific neoprenes like #39 and #40, and SCS and Nano SCS (which I thought were Yamamoto trademarks) with regard to at least some of their suits. I think you're suggesting that maybe their lower-end suits use neoprene sourced elsewhere? I have noticed they're not always very clear on what neoprene was used in specific suits, though I was pretty sure both the Vortex and Vector Pro used SCS, which I assume is only available as a skin for Yamamoto neoprenes. Open to being corrected!

If you have thoughts about my Pro vs Elite comparison, I'd certainly be curious, since they're your designs.

And more generally, kudos on having built a fantastic company, with really great products and superb customer service.
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Re: comparing the Roka Maverick Pro and Elite wetsuits [niccolo] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Niccolo

I would encourage you to look closer at their suits. Both the 2015 Vortex and Vector Pro say they use "Super GKA Neoprene," which I assume is Sheico. It isn't Yamamoto. That might be great, but I'm just saying it's not apples to apples.

Re: your comparison, some comments below. Overall, I would encourage you to swim in both (and other brands) and pick what's best for you.

Some notes on your concerns:

Armpit chafing - this is not normal and an unusual comment. We have a very low return rate, and armpit chafing isn't high on the list. Would encourage you to make sure you've got the suits pulled up all the way so that the graphics are on the top of the shoulder. If you still have chafing, I'd be curious if your technique is causing the issue, perhaps with a crossover or over rotation on breath or something, not sure.

The stripes down the side of the leg of the Pro definitely help with rotation. This is basic physics and something we tested a lot in the two years before we launched the suit.

I don't follow your comment about how the 1.5mm side stripes would allow water entry from the ankles. In our experience, water does not enter (in reverse) via the ankles and go up the leg while swimming (forward). Maybe if you jump into the water feet first or something, but I don't think I've ever heard of this being an issue. Most suits take in water from the neck, and some amount is both normal and buoyancy neutral. If you feel significant flooding or pooling, then that would be an issue and would go to fit. Never heard of water coming up the legs as an issue.

Forearm panels

a) proprioception - the panels definitely help you feel the water, which means consciously and subconsciously you can better modulate the amount of pressure you apply to your forearms. An analogy might be running in a Vibram vs a big cushioned Hoka shoe. If you run in a Vibram will most certainly not heel strike after 100 yards, because you can feel it, and it hurts. If you can't tell a difference in the water between our suits, I'd recommend you try skulling drills in the pool for 5-10 min at the end of your swim practice to develop a stronger feel for the water. It's not as big a difference as the shoe analogy, and some couldn't care less, but it is noticeable to many swimmers.

b) insulation - you are correct, the forearms don't insulate as well as neoprene. We use a stretch woven textile that has little to no insulation value. That said, we've had people wear our suit at Alcatraz and other cold races and not had problems. YMMV.

c) removal - The stretch woven forearm does fit a bit differently from the neoprene ones, but removal can be done easily with proper technique - just hook the barrel cuff with two fingers on the inside of the cuff, when you pull your arm out. When you do that, you create space for your hand and the suit comes off the wrist just fine. We have over a dozen ITU WTS athletes who wear our Maverick Pro, and they've had no issues with this in the most high pressure and time-sensitive T1s in the world. In non-ITU races, there is typically a decent walk/run from the swim exit to T1, so you should have plenty of time to get your sleeves off without issue.

The necks of the Pro and Elite and Comp are the same. If you feel a difference it's probably because the suits we're pulled up to the same extent.

Overall, they are both great suits - very comfortable and very fast. I don't think you'll be disappointed with either. If you don't personally see the value in the Pro, no worries, I'd just go with the Elite and you'll probably be just as happy.

Best,
Rob

---
rob canales
ceo + co-founder at ROKA
http://www.roka.com
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Re: comparing the Roka Maverick Pro and Elite wetsuits [niccolo] [ In reply to ]
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I have had an Elite for over 2 years. Actually had one of the earlier Elites but this spring a panel ripped open and Roka warrantied it with a new 2015 model.

The one thing I dislike on the Elite is the "cuffs" at the wrists. Makes it difficult to pull over a Garmin. The Elite has no such cuffs.

One side note: I purchased a sleeveless last week with the 50% off sale and its just a couple seconds slower than my sleeved.
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Re: comparing the Roka Maverick Pro and Elite wetsuits [rokasports] [ In reply to ]
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Rob

Thanks for chiming in. I'm learning a lot about wetsuits. As I said earlier in the thread, I am a relative beginner looking to upgrade my wetsuit and have read good things about yours. In particular I like the idea of how your suits are designed to help keep my legs up without having as much bouancy in the chest. With that being said, would a beginner necessarily see a big difference between the Comp, Pro, and Elite? I am mainly concerned with durability, not drowning, and any speed advantage I can get.

Thanks for any input!
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Re: comparing the Roka Maverick Pro and Elite wetsuits [rokasports] [ In reply to ]
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rokasports wrote:
Hi Niccolo

I would encourage you to look closer at their suits. Both the 2015 Vortex and Vector Pro say they use "Super GKA Neoprene," which I assume is Sheico. It isn't Yamamoto. That might be great, but I'm just saying it's not apples to apples.

Re: your comparison, some comments below. Overall, I would encourage you to swim in both (and other brands) and pick what's best for you.

Some notes on your concerns:

Armpit chafing - this is not normal and an unusual comment. We have a very low return rate, and armpit chafing isn't high on the list. Would encourage you to make sure you've got the suits pulled up all the way so that the graphics are on the top of the shoulder. If you still have chafing, I'd be curious if your technique is causing the issue, perhaps with a crossover or over rotation on breath or something, not sure.

The stripes down the side of the leg of the Pro definitely help with rotation. This is basic physics and something we tested a lot in the two years before we launched the suit.

I don't follow your comment about how the 1.5mm side stripes would allow water entry from the ankles. In our experience, water does not enter (in reverse) via the ankles and go up the leg while swimming (forward). Maybe if you jump into the water feet first or something, but I don't think I've ever heard of this being an issue. Most suits take in water from the neck, and some amount is both normal and buoyancy neutral. If you feel significant flooding or pooling, then that would be an issue and would go to fit. Never heard of water coming up the legs as an issue.

Forearm panels

a) proprioception - the panels definitely help you feel the water, which means consciously and subconsciously you can better modulate the amount of pressure you apply to your forearms. An analogy might be running in a Vibram vs a big cushioned Hoka shoe. If you run in a Vibram will most certainly not heel strike after 100 yards, because you can feel it, and it hurts. If you can't tell a difference in the water between our suits, I'd recommend you try skulling drills in the pool for 5-10 min at the end of your swim practice to develop a stronger feel for the water. It's not as big a difference as the shoe analogy, and some couldn't care less, but it is noticeable to many swimmers.

b) insulation - you are correct, the forearms don't insulate as well as neoprene. We use a stretch woven textile that has little to no insulation value. That said, we've had people wear our suit at Alcatraz and other cold races and not had problems. YMMV.

c) removal - The stretch woven forearm does fit a bit differently from the neoprene ones, but removal can be done easily with proper technique - just hook the barrel cuff with two fingers on the inside of the cuff, when you pull your arm out. When you do that, you create space for your hand and the suit comes off the wrist just fine. We have over a dozen ITU WTS athletes who wear our Maverick Pro, and they've had no issues with this in the most high pressure and time-sensitive T1s in the world. In non-ITU races, there is typically a decent walk/run from the swim exit to T1, so you should have plenty of time to get your sleeves off without issue.

The necks of the Pro and Elite and Comp are the same. If you feel a difference it's probably because the suits we're pulled up to the same extent.

Overall, they are both great suits - very comfortable and very fast. I don't think you'll be disappointed with either. If you don't personally see the value in the Pro, no worries, I'd just go with the Elite and you'll probably be just as happy.

Best,
Rob

Rob, appreciate your engaging, and I think we're mostly on the same page. I'm also cognizant you have better ways to spend your time, so not necessary expecting an extended dialogue here.

I'm pretty neurotic about getting the suits on right and tweaking the fit once I'm in the water to make sure they're seated well. I'm also at the upper end of the medium size (5'10", 168 lbs, classic swimmer's build), so sizing down isn't an option.

The shape of my pecs, torso, and especially lats makes armpit chafing a sporadic issue for me in general, but it's very mild with your suits, and it's possible getting a bit more of it with the Pro than Elite yesterday was a one-off. I do cross over my arms a bit, something my coach has been nudging me to correct and that's getting better over time, so that may be part of it. I'm not worried about the issue, just trying to report my subjective, n=1 experience as accurately as possible.

Agreed re helping with rotation, was struck how noticeable this was, and was happy to report that my experience lined up perfectly with your design intent and marketing.

The 1.5mm stripe of neoprene on the Pro sits flush with the outside of the suit, which means there are two small wedge-shaped gaps between the suit and the leg on each edge of each stripe, running the entire length of the leg. Before demoing it, I wondered whether this would be a conduit for a little extra water, it would arguably be odd if it weren't, e.g. if the ankles sealed so snugly that that wedge-shaped gap trapped air instead. Not a big deal, but I liked the second-skin feel of the Elite on my legs a bit better (which I'll have to trade off against the rotation-aiding qualities of the Pro).

Re forearm panel, I guess the acid test is how many Pro users would have it included on a custom suit. I'm genuinely curious to see if others chime in, because I'm pretty sure I'd leave it off. But you obviously did your homework in designing these suits, so perhaps this is a really popular feature and I'm in the minority.

Interesting re the Pro and Elite necks being the same. I wondered whether I was imagining the difference. Another forum user reported that the Pro neck chafed a bit for them (not an issue at all for me, and competitors' suits have chafed me badly), and that your customer service suggested they try the Elite because the shape was a little different. If I hadn't read that (which was probably mistranslated somewhere along the line) I wouldn't have reported what felt like a rather subtle difference, because visually, they look the same (and apparently they are the same).

Totally agreed they're great suits, the best I've swum in, and a) I've swum in a lot of suits at this point and b) as is presumably obvious, I'm extremely picky. Also, Jennifer in customer service deserves some kind of medal for her patience and knowledge about your product, and kudos to you for enabling that kind of customer service culture.
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Re: comparing the Roka Maverick Pro and Elite wetsuits [niccolo] [ In reply to ]
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I'm still undecided myself between the Roka Elite and Pro. Choices choices....
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Re: comparing the Roka Maverick Pro and Elite wetsuits [gtstang02] [ In reply to ]
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gtstang02 wrote:
I'm still undecided myself between the Roka Elite and Pro. Choices choices....

If you're really torn, just order both and return one, and only be out return shipping. I imagine sizes will start to sell out at some point, too.

I wonder what Roka does with the decent number of returns they must get as a result of their policies. Maybe rentals or cheap or free suits for sponsored teams?
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Re: comparing the Roka Maverick Pro and Elite wetsuits [niccolo] [ In reply to ]
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Our wetsuit return rate is actually quite low. Most people don't buy two and return one. We use returned suits for team / other on-site demos. We don't sell demo'd or repackaged goods on our website. If there were a market for graded, used/demo suits that warranted the logistics investment, we might consider it, but haven't had to think about it from an inventory perspective.

Best,
Rob

---
rob canales
ceo + co-founder at ROKA
http://www.roka.com
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Re: comparing the Roka Maverick Pro and Elite wetsuits [rokasports] [ In reply to ]
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rokasports wrote:
Our wetsuit return rate is actually quite low. Most people don't buy two and return one. We use returned suits for team / other on-site demos. We don't sell demo'd or repackaged goods on our website. If there were a market for graded, used/demo suits that warranted the logistics investment, we might consider it, but haven't had to think about it from an inventory perspective.

Best,
Rob

Makes sense. I initially just bought one (the Elite), and then when the big sale started, inquired whether it would be bad form to order the Pro and compare them, and was encouraged to do that, which I appreciate. But I get that most folks aren't interested in spending time and effort doing the kind of demoing I've been doing (with your suits and a few others).
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Re: comparing the Roka Maverick Pro and Elite wetsuits [rokasports] [ In reply to ]
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I'm seeing all these sales for Roka wetsuits. Does that mean there's a new version coming for 2016? When can we expect details to be released?

blog
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Re: comparing the Roka Maverick Pro and Elite wetsuits [niccolo] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah I doubt the return rate is much of an issue. I have both the Maverick Elite and Pro sleeveless, a pair of Sim shorts, and an array of goggles from Roka. With the exception of one of the goggles picked up at a race expo, I ordered all of these items with the "if I don't like it, I'll return it" mentality. I have yet to ship anything back to them. Everything I have purchased from Roka has been excellent.

As a comparison between the Elite and Pro, I can only offer you my experience with the Elite full, and the Pro sleeveless. I only purchased the sleeveless for swims where the temperatures are warm, otherwise I use my full for everything. So far, I can't really see any difference between performances where I use the full or the sleeveless. I tried to compare them head to head in 400 yard intervals in the pool, and the difference was about 5 seconds, with the full being faster. Then just the other weekend, I swam two 1-mile legs in the La Jolla 10-mile relay, using the full on one leg, and the sleeveless on the other. I was 52 seconds faster with the sleeveless. However, in an event like that, there are a host of other variables at play. My overall impression is that I felt more comfortable in the sleeveless in the warmer water (it was 76 degrees I believe). A good time for a 1-mile swim for me is around 24 minutes, so I'm not an elite athlete by any means. And so my swim legs are not a very good scientific 'control.' But I can say I am glad I have both options for my races, and Roka's end of season sales made it so that I have two excellent wetsuits for about the price of one mid-range one.
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Re: comparing the Roka Maverick Pro and Elite wetsuits [niccolo] [ In reply to ]
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On the Roka Maverick Pro forearm panels about which I'm somewhat skeptical, it's worth noting that two testers for Triathlete magazine "unanimously agreed [it] improved feel for the water during the catch" in the context of a more general rave about the suit. Review at http://triathlon.competitor.com/...#vhElb1C0a9m9gbCL.99
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Re: comparing the Roka Maverick Pro and Elite wetsuits [niccolo] [ In reply to ]
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Have been traveling so didn't get a chance to get in another comparison swim between the Pro and Elite, and Roka has been super accommodating about taking my time with the suits. Got in two mile+ swims in the ocean this morning in brisk 56 degree water, one in each one, and I think the final choice is the Elite.

The Pro is definitely a touch more flexible through the shoulders, to me that's its biggest advantage. It also feels marginally more buoyant in the upper body, which is consistent with the slightly different materials used. The "proprioception forearm panel" I could do without; sure, I can feel the water a tad more through the fabric, but I don't think that's worth the added complexity and the warmth downside (see below). The thinner neoprene strips down the legs do make for a slightly snappier roll. That thinner neoprene, and especially the forearm fabric, do make the suit less insulating, which might be a positive for those in warmer waters, but for this northern California ocean swimmer (our water temps are high-40s to mid-60s), is a negative. Those strips down the leg also mean the ankle doesn't seal quite as well, and just a little more water can enter the lower legs because of the channels it creates.

If I were having Roka build me a custom suit, it would include the more flexible and also slightly more buoyant upper materials from the Pro, ditch the forearm fabric panels, and I'm torn about the strips down the legs--perhaps I'd have them add an ankle cuff to enhance the seal? In the real world, given the price differential and my performance preferences, I think the Elite is my suit. It's worth emphasizing that I'm not a fish--I'm a decent swimmer, but not very fast.

I should add--these are the two best swimming wetsuits I've ever used, hands down, and I've tried a lot of different wetsuits, and I'm very picky, in case that wasn't obvious.

It looks like the amazing 50 percent off sale just ended, FYI.
Last edited by: niccolo: Nov 22, 15 17:05
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Re: comparing the Roka Maverick Pro and Elite wetsuits [niccolo] [ In reply to ]
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Ankle cuff? Did you feel you had water entering the suit at the ankles? I've never felt that.

I'm a huge fan of Roka. Only thing I would like to try is the reverse zipper on a full sleeve maverick pro.

I'm also hoping they put out some casual stuff too, like a hoodie and beanie to wear to the pool on these cold mornings.

Now I'm excited to go to masters tomorrow, love my roka swim gear.
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Re: comparing the Roka Maverick Pro and Elite wetsuits [niccolo] [ In reply to ]
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Never felt like I had more sense of catch with panels, but then again I'm much more focused on so many other things. I don't feel like that makes or breaks the suit though. The rubber in the shoulders and lats is where I feel the difference. For a sprint, it wouldn't matter to me. For oly to IM, big difference.
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Re: comparing the Roka Maverick Pro and Elite wetsuits [prattzc] [ In reply to ]
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Yep, several things going on. One, due to the construction, the ankle on the Pro isn't quite as snug as the ankle on the same-sized Elite. Two, the thinner material deployed flush with the outer surface of thicker material necessarily creates small internal gaps that water fills. In really cold water, you can feel it, or you can push on the thinner strips on the lower leg and you'll feel that there's a little extra water in there. This seems unavoidable based on the construction, though the snugger the fit, the less it will manifest. And to be clear, it's a very modest effect!

So you notice a big difference between the shoulder flexibility of the Pro and Elite? I've been struck how modest it is, for me.

Re catch panels, I can feel the difference, but the sensation is obviously much reduced from bare skin, and while I appreciate the need to pay attention to it sometimes in the pool while working on technique, I could do without that in open water swims. And I don't like the added complexity and the lack of insulation over a spot that has a lot of superficial blood vessels.

Agreed, I'm a total Roka fanboy. Love the gear, but also the ethos of the company and the phenomenal customer service.
Last edited by: niccolo: Nov 22, 15 17:14
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Re: comparing the Roka Maverick Pro and Elite wetsuits [niccolo] [ In reply to ]
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Also, I was comparing the Roka SIM Comp and Pro models of their buoyancy shorts, have decided to keep the Comps and return the Pros.

Pros are made of higher-end neoprene, skin, and liner, with a little more sophisticated design. I think they had a tad more buoyancy, but the difference was too subtle to be sure. The stripes of thinner neoprene did marginally promote rotation, but again, pretty damn subtle for me. The big thing I didn't like about the Pro was how low-cut it is. Roka swears this was required and a higher cut would scoop more water coming off the wall. But for me, even with the waist cord very snug, the low cut at the back felt like it really promoted water entry.

Comps are a little more basic in design and materials, but for a buoyancy short, I'm not sure I care. And the higher cut simply fits me better. These let in minimal water coming off the wall, a significant contrast with the Pro.

So this was an easy choice for me, even independent of price. And the Comps are significant cheaper than the Pros (or the mid-range Elite model, which I didn't try).

The fact that Roka allows returns after demoing is fantastic. Hopefully many people don't take them up on that to compare multiple models, and instead only return if something doesn't fit right, otherwise the economics might become prohibitive. But I'm thankful they allowed this, and trying to pay it back by sharing reviews here (and in person at the pool).
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