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Re: cadence [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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johnnyo to turn this semi-scientific
brett would need to train the girls similar to how he does not

except raise their cadence a bit

and see what happens


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changes take time to take there effect. Perhaps those change have started to hunt her this season?

I do beleive she did the training with TeamTBB last year for all those races you mention. If so, i know what ever fit she had, she as spend 90% of her training at some slow cadance. I honestly dont know why it s working so well for girls but it is........ and when i take into account performance, i dont only look at the bike split but the race overall.

So, i dont have the explanation but i can definitly notice that the best women rider at ironman have lower cadance than the best men. Dont you agree ?

If i understand correctly, your saying those girls would gain in overall performance from speeding up there cadance?



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Re: cadence [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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It proves victory.

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Re: cadence [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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"If i understand correctly, your saying those girls would gain in overall performance from speeding up there cadance?"

my ex wife got to 9:21 in kona and 9:08 in canada in two years, starting from more than an hour slower in each race. most of brett's gals, two decades later, haven't gotten there yet. again, i don't like to engage in anecdotes, but, yes, brett is making a mistake in my view by slowing down their cadences. most of the positions of his riders look pretty good, but, unless you can find me some evidence in women's pro cycling that women ride with slower cadences than men, i think the onus is on the person advocating this novel technique to show why this is the new and better way.

20 years after there were several women bumping up against or breaking the 9hr barrier all at the same time (paula, erin, julieanne white, thea sybesma, and others), if brett is aggregating all these great female athletes, sticking them in the same pot, having them train with each other (and this kind of enclave is a big benefit), i'm frankly surprised there aren't more chrissies. or, at least, that there aren't 4 or 5 sub-9:20 kona finishers. i think perhaps there could be if they rode the bike with the better technique that the men must use in order to be competitive.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: cadence [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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Hijacking the thread a little bit, but I've clocked Crowie and Raelert on the run 5 times now over a full minute, and their cadence is 82-84. A little lower than I would have expected given all the talk about 90+ cadences for elite runners.

Edit: Chrissie is a legit 90-92
Last edited by: trail: Oct 10, 09 17:05
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Re: cadence [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Those guys arent elite runners.... they are elite triathlete.

What stand for a runner or a cyclist dosnt mean it stand for triathlon.

But i do beleive Sergio at his best when running low 2:40 marathon was in the 87-88 range...but that is truly exceptional.

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Re: cadence [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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Those guys arent elite runners.... they are elite triathlete.

Thanks for the breaking news.
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Re: cadence [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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"Isn't it true that cadence is a somewhat personal preference?"

you can say that about anything, i guess. but when a locus of points form around the best athletes, i think you have to have a good reason to vary from that. bert grabsch was last year's world tt champ. but, this year, he was eaten up badly by cancellara. 105 beat 85 rpm. and it almost always does. yes, you have outliers -- grabsch, gonchar -- and maybe 85 in grabsch' case, or even slower in gonchar's case, is better for them. or, maybe they'd be faster if they'd learn to turn like 95% of the other great male time trialers.




I think you're a bit off if you're implying that 95% are over 100rpm average cadence for road time trials. Most seem to be in the 85-95rpm range There are some power files out there from pro riders, like for example Gustav Larsson, showing guys like him are right around 90rpm for 20min efforts and up. I think being above 100rpm is more the exception than the rule in this case.

Really don't think you can universally say a certain cadence is right either. Especially not in a long distance low intensity race like the ironman where the overall pedalling forces are so low to begin with that I really don't think it matters much if you're a bit lower as the strain on the muscles is quite low anyways. I have a feeling that the absolute power someone produces has something to do with it as well which makes me think it's not very efficient for someone producing 200w trying to ride at the same 105rpm cadence like Cancellara doing 500w.




BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se
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Re: cadence [bjorn] [ In reply to ]
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"I think you're a bit off if you're implying that 95% are over 100rpm average cadence for road time trials. Most seem to be in the 85-95rpm range"

i beg to differ.

"
I think being above 100rpm is more the exception than the rule in this case."

keep in mind that the hour record, where because of fixed gear we absolutely know the cadences with precision, has only been set once in the last 50 years at a cadence less than 100rpm, and that was 98rpm. yes, fixed gear bikes, that's a slightly different riding dynamic, but not much.

as for power files, i think one thing you have to clear up is whether this includes non-pedaling descents, braking, cornering, etc. i really think if you just watch video of top cyclists during TTs, as they are riding, you won't find hardly any under 90rpm, most riding 95rpm to 100rpm on efforts under an hour.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: cadence [bjorn] [ In reply to ]
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"Really don't think you can universally say a certain cadence is right either. Especially not in a long distance low intensity race like the ironman where the overall pedalling forces are so low to begin with that I really don't think it matters much if you're a bit lower as the strain on the muscles is quite low anyways."

let's go back to your power files. i think if you look at the power files of top male triathletes in an ironman, you'll consistently find 84(ish). that's the fulcrum around which the power files revolve, and there's not too much variance, absent the outliers. i don't think that 260 watts is so low that it doesn't matter what your cadence is. whether in "high intensity" sprinting (in T&F), quarter-miling, middle distance or marathon running, there are technical principles that one can identify. why you don't think this applies to cycling i can't imagine.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: cadence [trail] [ In reply to ]
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craig alexander's running cadence is 87.5 exactly. but he looks good so whatever.
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Re: cadence [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Cadence for track riding and the hour record is a bit different than road tt'ing and it seems like some choose a higher cadence with the fixed gear for the track. I think Obree was in the low 90's btw when he set one of his hour records and was below that on the road so that's one example of that. Even Boardman I don't think was quite as high on the road as on the track overall. Another thing is that a lot of the good/great tt'ers the past 20 years haven't attempted the hour record so it's a small group to make an analysis on to begin with. There are plenty of great tt riders like Rich, Ullrich, Grabsch, Martin, Vino, Leipheimer, Gonchar etc etc that are in the 85-95 range. That should be a good enough chunk of riders that at least proves far from everyone is close to 100rpm. You can check any youtube clip with these guys counting cadence if you don't believe me.

Regarding power files and average cadence you are right that decsending and cornering lowers the average a bit but for most of the tt courses it's not enough to account for more than a few rpm's.




BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se
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Re: cadence [SeasonsChange] [ In reply to ]
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"craig alexander's running cadence is 87.5 exactly. but he looks good so whatever."

we'll try to get craig's power file, and those of as many of the other pros as we can. i think 90 is a good running cadence, and i've always felt that running cadence differs from cycling cadence, in that running cadence shouldn't vary much with effort. the difference between the two is that you're locked into a given "stride length" when you ride, since you're locked into pedals onto a crank with a definite length. running, i prefer to shorten stride length than vary cadence, because, i prefer lightness of footfall, which you don't get if you pound a given stride length a slower cadence.

but i think crowie looks great, i wouldn't change a thing, and if it's 87.5 then that's what it is. he so reminds me of welchie 15 years ago.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: cadence [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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keep in mind that the hour record, where because of fixed gear we absolutely know the cadences with precision, has only been set once in the last 50 years at a cadence less than 100rpm, and that was 98rpm.

Hmmm.

In 1967 Anquetil's average cadence was 92.7
In 1993 Obree's average cadence was 92.9
In 1994 Obree's average cadence was 94.9
In 1994 Indurain's average cadence was 99.7

Keep in mind that for the hour record, only once in the last 50 years has average pedal force been less than 220 N, and that was at 216 N. Are you saying that we should all ride in excess of 220 N of pedal force?
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Re: cadence [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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"Really don't think you can universally say a certain cadence is right either. Especially not in a long distance low intensity race like the ironman where the overall pedalling forces are so low to begin with that I really don't think it matters much if you're a bit lower as the strain on the muscles is quite low anyways."

let's go back to your power files. i think if you look at the power files of top male triathletes in an ironman, you'll consistently find 84(ish). that's the fulcrum around which the power files revolve, and there's not too much variance, absent the outliers. i don't think that 260 watts is so low that it doesn't matter what your cadence is. whether in "high intensity" sprinting (in T&F), quarter-miling, middle distance or marathon running, there are technical principles that one can identify. why you don't think this applies to cycling i can't imagine.


No but I think it's crazy to say that a cadence is optimal to within a few rpm's for everyone when there are so many variables at play. There are like you say general technical principles in sport but if you look at elite athletes there are always many small individual differences in technique, tactics etc between people.




BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se
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Re: cadence [bjorn] [ In reply to ]
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here's the progression, newest to oldest, back 15 years:

Boardman 104 rpm
Rominger 102 rpm
Rominger 101 rpm
Indurain 100 rpm
Obree 95 rpm
Boardman (unknown by me) rpm
Obree 93 rpm

everyone before obree back to merckx was over 100 rpm.

"There are plenty of great tt riders like Rich, Ullrich, Grabsch, Martin, Vino, Leipheimer, Gonchar etc etc that are in the 85-95 range"

i think you have to demonstrate 85, i don't believe that. if you say 90-95, yes, there are a fair number, depending on the distance. i think cancellara, and armstrong, are high at 105ish, but, i think these great TTers are bringing the rest of the field up. for example, i'd believe 85 for ullrich if you talk about him at the beginning of his pro career in the late 90s, but not near the end of his career.

but if you want to talk about grabsch and gonchar, fine. let's talk about them. but when you're done, let's talk about the rest of the top 50 riders who don't ride that way.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: cadence [bjorn] [ In reply to ]
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"No but I think it's crazy to say that a cadence is optimal to within a few rpm's for everyone when there are so many variables at play."

i think it's crazier to be the one who wagers that his outlying technique is better than those who represent the norm. bill koch, dick fosbury, and whoever was the first shot putter to abandon the glide for the spin, their wagers paid off. but then everyone coalesces around that new, better technique. that fact that every good athlete, sans a few outliers, does coalesce, means that "everyone is the same" is a truer statement than "everyone is different."

those variables you say that are at play. there aren't nearly as many as you think. that's why, when the function of your body is really on the line (as in, you might die), you freely and gladly submit to the sameness your body exhibits relative to everyone else's body.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: cadence [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
here's the progression, newest to oldest, back 15 years:

Boardman 104 rpm
Rominger 102 rpm
Rominger 101 rpm
Indurain 100 rpm
Obree 95 rpm
Boardman (unknown by me) rpm
Obree 93 rpm

everyone before obree back to merckx was over 100 rpm.

"There are plenty of great tt riders like Rich, Ullrich, Grabsch, Martin, Vino, Leipheimer, Gonchar etc etc that are in the 85-95 range"

i think you have to demonstrate 85, i don't believe that. if you say 90-95, yes, there are a fair number, depending on the distance. i think cancellara, and armstrong, are high at 105ish, but, i think these great TTers are bringing the rest of the field up. for example, i'd believe 85 for ullrich if you talk about him at the beginning of his pro career in the late 90s, but not near the end of his career.

but if you want to talk about grabsch and gonchar, fine. let's talk about them. but when you're done, let's talk about the rest of the top 50 riders who don't ride that way.


You mean in the beginning of this career when he won grand tour tt's by 3min?

By 85-95rpm I mean that it seems like it's the range where most pro cyclists seem to perform and not necessarilly that a lot of them are at 85rpm. If I'd guess I think most of them are right around 90rpm or just over but I think there are more that are under 90rpm than you think as well. That's a bit beside the point though as the original premise of yours seemed to indicate that almost everyone were around 100-105rpm when in reality there have only been a very small amount of riders that have tt'ed successfully on the road at those cadences.

Point is that the range where you can be successful seem to be very wide and not just within a couple of rpm's for everyone.




BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se
Last edited by: bjorn: Oct 10, 09 18:49
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Re: cadence [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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"No but I think it's crazy to say that a cadence is optimal to within a few rpm's for everyone when there are so many variables at play."

i think it's crazier to be the one who wagers that his outlying technique is better than those who represent the norm. bill koch, dick fosbury, and whoever was the first shot putter to abandon the glide for the spin, their wagers paid off. but then everyone coalesces around that new, better technique. that fact that every good athlete, sans a few outliers, does coalesce, means that "everyone is the same" is a truer statement than "everyone is different."

those variables you say that are at play. there aren't nearly as many as you think. that's why, when the function of your body is really on the line (as in, you might die), you freely and gladly submit to the sameness your body exhibits relative to everyone else's body.


If you're gonna take up that example one might argue that yes when you're treating someone for a medical problem or whatever the basic principles of how to treat the person is the same but the dose of medicine you'd prescribe would be different depending on individual factors. So in sports that means that yes the basic principles are the same but small individual differences might lead to some differences in execution for each person.




BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se
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Re: cadence [bjorn] [ In reply to ]
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"You mean in the beginning of this career when he won grand tour tt's by 3min?"

then why did he change to a faster cadence as his career progressed?

when i hear about ullrich "the masher" yes, i agree, mash like ullrich, who appeared to mash with his cadence of 95 next to lance who was riding 105rpm and even 110rpm. i think 95 is fine, and, at least for most of his later years, that was more emblematic of his TT cadence.

"
That's a bit beside the point though as the original premise of yours seemed to indicate that almost everyone were around 100-105rpm"

i'd have to read what i wrote, but, i don't think i said that. where did i say that? i believe i said that the hour record is usually set at a cadence of 100rpm or above. and even the outlier, obree, is at 95 when he doesn't fade (both his hour records were set using the same gearing). and i noted that cancellara's 105 very handily beat grabsch's 85. but when did i say that almost everyone rode 100 to 105? i think that 95rpm to 100rpm is a great cadence for TT riding (tho the greatest TT riders of the past decade, cancellara and armstrong, are/were a few beats higher). i just discount 85 as a cadence very many top cyclists use at all.

i would counsel triathletes reading this to ride their bikes the way that the best athletes ride, just as they should strive to ski, golf, shoot a basketball, swing a bat, just like the best exemplars of their respective sports, unless there is a physical impairment keeping them from doing so.

and, again, for the purposes of ironman, remember that cadence quite obviously follows intensity, and that's why RAAM riders ride at 65rpm, ironman athletes ride at 85, 70.3 riders faster, olympic distance athletes faster, and so forth.

i've charged our guys on kona to try and obtain all the power files they can of the male pros. my guess is that you'll see a bunch of them packed around 84, because that's what we've seen so far from these kona power files. but, maybe you're right, maybe they're all riding some other cadence. the proof of the pudding is in the power file reading.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: cadence [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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chrissie may win this race, she's way ahead, there's about 12mi left to go in the ride as i'm writing this. but i hope you guys see the difference between her cadence and the cadences of most of the men. and, she's spending a lot of time riding with her hands on the pursuits now. she looks pretty cooked to me, and i think cadence is a part of the problem.

she may win, she may set a record, i don't know what'll happen from here. but, sitting up on the bike, on the flat, for extended stretches, is not anything a man could do and still win this race.
Who is a better Ironman athlete in the world than Chrissie Wellington? And who is more dominant in any respective sport right now than Chrissie Wellington? Your argument makes no sense.
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Re: cadence [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I have no idea why Ullrich changed his cadence a bit and I don't really think it says much. He did however have more success in the 90's than after the millenium but the only thing that proves is that he seemed to do ok in a range of cadences and not just a certain rpm. Regarding riding at 85rpm I do think it's at the very low range for most people but there have been guys like Gonchar, Grabsch etc winning tt worlds with around that cadence so I don't think it's as absurd as you think that some very fast people are riding around 85-90rpm. You seem to have a hard time accepting that things are not working in exactly the same way for everyone.

I agree to a point that the cadence varies by intensity but I don't think you can set that cadence to within a few rpm's just by stating a certain race duration. I don't think most triathletes riding a 40km tt at 300-350w should necessarally shoot for the same cadence as a pro rider holding 450-500w and dealing with much higher pedalling forces.




BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se
Last edited by: bjorn: Oct 10, 09 19:36
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Re: cadence [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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every other person who wins this race rides a steady cadence of 84.
Show me one other person who rides at a steady cadence of 84 and reliably beats the field by 20 minutes. Lower cadences are more efficient in general. More efficiency on the bike saves the legs for the run. It seems Brett Sutton and Chrissie have learned this. The field should be taking lessons from Chrissie and not vice-versa.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: cadence [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman..... look at all the best girls riding..... low cadance and brett sutton teaching. There is a reason for this. And a reason why they ride so well and can put solid marathon after. It wont work for men but for women.... i think Brett is the expert on teaching girls how to ride....
It won't work for men because . . .???? The biology and physics are the same for men and women. It doesn't work for men because none of these top men have ever trained themselves to make it work.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: cadence [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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can you think of any sport where there's no consensus of how the activity is executed? that everybody just flies around doing it his own weird way?

Pitching in baseball comes to mind. As does a batter's stance.
Last edited by: xc800runner: Oct 10, 09 19:47
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Re: cadence [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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"No but I think it's crazy to say that a cadence is optimal to within a few rpm's for everyone when there are so many variables at play."

i think it's crazier to be the one who wagers that his outlying technique is better than those who represent the norm. bill koch, dick fosbury, and whoever was the first shot putter to abandon the glide for the spin, their wagers paid off. but then everyone coalesces around that new, better technique. that fact that every good athlete, sans a few outliers, does coalesce, means that "everyone is the same" is a truer statement than "everyone is different."

those variables you say that are at play. there aren't nearly as many as you think. that's why, when the function of your body is really on the line (as in, you might die), you freely and gladly submit to the sameness your body exhibits relative to everyone else's body.
How many IM does Chrissie have to win (by 20 minutes or more no less) before people start to pay attention to what she is doing?

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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