all-around wheel upgrade advice

Jul 7, 16 14:48

Post #1 of 77 (6031 views)

The $299 Powertap GS hub-based power meter sale is making me mull a wheel upgrade, but as a relative newbie I'm struggling to assess my options.

I have a 2013 Roubaix Sport Compact set up with Redshift dual-position seatpost and quick-release aerobars, fit nicely dialed in over several sessions with a good local fitter. The OEM wheels are the not-so-highly regarded Axis 1.0, a combination of a lower-end DT Swiss rim with a generic hub.

I'm at no risk of podiuming in the tris (so far two Olympics and a 70.3) I've done since I start this sport just over a year ago, so I care more about overall ride quality than raw speed. The biggest thing I'd like from new wheels is lively handling, which probably means a lighter wheel but perhaps a little less aero one. I ride along the Pacific with a ton of crosswinds, so something like a 30 is probably more appropriate than a 60 or 90. My impression is wider rims are pure upside from both a comfort and performance perspective, so that's definitely on the list, would be nice to run 23 or 25mm tires without them mushrooming out. Roads can be a bit rough around here, I've been riding GP4000s 23mm on the front and 25mm on the back, pretty happy with those but on my narrow rims get some serious mushroom profile going on. I doubt I'll upgrade to a full tri bike in the foreseeable future. I want one set of wheels for training and sporadic racing.

I've read a lot on here and elsewhere. I see that Flo 30s are popular, but they're a bit on the heavier side, maybe a bit harsher ride dynamics? What should be on my radar? Advice appreciated!

Last edited by: niccolo: Jul 7, 16 16:07

Re: all-around wheel upgrade advice [niccolo] [ In reply to ]

Jul 7, 16 15:45

Post #2 of 77 (5981 views)

niccolo wrote:

The $299 Powertap GS hub-based power meter sale is making me mull a wheel upgrade, but as a relative newbie I'm struggling to assess my options.

I have a 2013 Roubaix Sport Compact set up with Redshift dual-position seatpost and quick-release aerobars, fit nicely dialed in over several sessions with a good local fitter. The OEM wheels are the not-so-highly regarded Axis 1.0, a combination of a lower-end DT Swiss rim with a generic hub.

I'm at no risk of podiuming in the tris (so far two Olympics and a 70.3) I've done since I start this sport just over a year ago, so I care more about overall ride quality than raw speed. The biggest thing I'd like from new wheels is lively handling, which probably means a lighter wheel but perhaps a little less aero one. I ride along the Pacific with a ton of crosswinds, so something like a 30 is probably more appropriate than a 60 or 90. My impression is wider rims are pure upside from both a comfort and performance perspective, so that's definitely on the list, would be nice to run 23 or 25mm tires without them mushrooming out. Roads can be a bit rough around here, I've been riding GP4000s 23mm on the front and 25mm on the back, pretty happy with those but on my narrow rims get some serious mushroom profile going on. I doubt I'll upgrade to a full tri bike in the foreseeable future. I want one set of wheels for training and sporadic racing.

I've read a lot on here and elsewhere. I see that Flo 30s are popular, but a bit on the heavier side, maybe a bit harsher ride dynamics? What should be on my radar? Advice appreciated!

Just FYI, the FLO 30s come in 20, 24, 28, 32 drilling configurations which can easily be built for riders on the "heavier side". Our 28 hole Clydesdale build will work for riders up to 242lbs. If you are over that weight, then I would recommend working with a builder who can help build a wheel that will suit you well.

If you have any additional questions, just let me know.

Chris

Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

Re: all-around wheel upgrade advice [Canadian] [ In reply to ]

Jul 7, 16 16:06

Post #3 of 77 (5966 views)

Canadian wrote:

Just FYI, the FLO 30s come in 20, 24, 28, 32 drilling configurations which can easily be built for riders on the "heavier side". Our 28 hole Clydesdale build will work for riders up to 242lbs. If you are over that weight, then I would recommend working with a builder who can help build a wheel that will suit you well.

If you have any additional questions, just let me know.

Chris

Thanks! I meant that your Flo 30s were a little on the heavier side. I'm 160 lbs, so my own weight shouldn't constrain my wheel choices.

Re: all-around wheel upgrade advice [niccolo] [ In reply to ]

Jul 7, 16 16:23

Post #4 of 77 (5943 views)

niccolo wrote:

Canadian wrote:

Just FYI, the FLO 30s come in 20, 24, 28, 32 drilling configurations which can easily be built for riders on the "heavier side". Our 28 hole Clydesdale build will work for riders up to 242lbs. If you are over that weight, then I would recommend working with a builder who can help build a wheel that will suit you well.

If you have any additional questions, just let me know.

Chris

Thanks! I meant that your Flo 30s were a little on the heavier side. I'm 160 lbs, so my own weight shouldn't constrain my wheel choices.

Oh... ok, I misread that. Best of luck in your search for a new wheel.

Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

Re: all-around wheel upgrade advice [Canadian] [ In reply to ]

Jul 7, 16 16:28

Post #5 of 77 (5936 views)

Canadian wrote:

Oh... ok, I misread that. Best of luck in your search for a new wheel.

Thanks, I tweaked it slightly to make sure it was clear.

For what it's worth, your Flo 30s are still in the running, seem to be popular and very reasonably priced. I'm trying to get a sense of what the reasonably priced alternatives would be, especially since, given my priorities, weight seems like an important criterion (to support acceleration, nimble handling, climbing, etc.), since overall handling is more important than raw speed to me (of course, if it were just about raw speed I'd be looking at deeper rims, and I wouldn't be riding a Roubaix with aerobars, either).

Re: all-around wheel upgrade advice [niccolo] [ In reply to ]

Jul 7, 16 17:22

Post #6 of 77 (5908 views)

niccolo wrote:

Canadian wrote:

Oh... ok, I misread that. Best of luck in your search for a new wheel.

Thanks, I tweaked it slightly to make sure it was clear.

For what it's worth, your Flo 30s are still in the running, seem to be popular and very reasonably priced. I'm trying to get a sense of what the reasonably priced alternatives would be, especially since, given my priorities, weight seems like an important criterion (to support acceleration, nimble handling, climbing, etc.), since overall handling is more important than raw speed to me (of course, if it were just about raw speed I'd be looking at deeper rims, and I wouldn't be riding a Roubaix with aerobars, either).

Remember that during accelerations, aerodynamics are about 49 times more important than weight... and the FLO 30 definitely has some aero credibility. Tom A. wrote an article on that here on ST. It might surprise you. His study was done on a 400g difference in mass.

Here's a link to the article http://www.slowtwitch.com/...nd_Inertia_2106.html

Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

Re: all-around wheel upgrade advice [niccolo] [ In reply to ]

Jul 7, 16 18:09

Post #7 of 77 (5866 views)

More expensive than the Flos but the pacenti SL23 is a very well regarded rim. It's 26mm deep and around 425 grams per rim.

Re: all-around wheel upgrade advice [niccolo] [ In reply to ]

Jul 7, 16 18:25

Post #8 of 77 (5843 views)

It would seem to me that if you are going to bother upgrading wheel sets and you aren't thinking something faster/deeper, you might as well get something that gets you something. As I've learned from plenty of raw data that I've seen here in the last months of also "looking", wheel weight is really a non-factor until the road is quite steep, and unless that's where you ride the majority of the time with performance in mind, i.e. speed/time, then it might make sense to balance that with what you will be doing all the other time on the bike, which is battling the wind.

I'd really go with suggestions like Chris from Flo, who based on available data knows what he's talking about. Easy solution seems to be to stick with aluminum for convenience and price, gain some significant aero vs. a typical box rim, ride quality from wide rims and bigger tire volume, and call it a day.

Virtually everything I've seen lately says that the tire volume and pressure factor into ride quality more than any other gear. I don't know what you mean by "lively" I suppose. I would think screaming down the road is a good way to look at lively ;)

Matt

Re: all-around wheel upgrade advice [niccolo] [ In reply to ]

Jul 7, 16 18:45

Post #9 of 77 (5818 views)

I had the exact same debate over the last few weeks. I really wanted power but the draw of some sexy carbon wheels was killing me. They are for a Cervelo S1 that will get double duty racing.

I pulled the trigger last week on a set of Flo 30's. They just seemed to be the best all around combo of aero, comfort, style, and price. The freight is taking forever to get to me and it's killing me.

Re: all-around wheel upgrade advice [niccolo] [ In reply to ]

Jul 7, 16 20:31

Post #10 of 77 (5755 views)

also check out the HED Belgium rims. Decent weight, durable, and can be drilled in most configurations. If you are going aluminum Flo and HED are good bets. Depending on what your budget is there are a few carbon rims that can be had unbuilt that are aero, shallow, and light that can be laced to the G3. Some that come to mind are enve 3.4, xentis 4.2, zipp 303 (harder to find as a rim only- wheelbuilder maybe).

Andy Mullen
Team Zoot

Re: all-around wheel upgrade advice [andy515] [ In reply to ]

Jul 7, 16 20:48

Post #11 of 77 (5742 views)

I have 35mm, 50mm, and 80mm all carbon clincher / tubeless rims that are made by one of the wheel manufacturers in Utah.

Re: all-around wheel upgrade advice [svennn] [ In reply to ]

Jul 7, 16 23:42

Post #12 of 77 (5692 views)

Really appreciate everyone's input. On further reflection the Flo 30s looks rather good--the value, aero qualities, decent weight, aesthetics, and a company that seems committed to a customer service ethos are an appealing package deal. I'm still mulling a few options, but increasingly leaning toward the Flos.

So if I combine a Powertap GS (24 direct pull spoke) hub with a Flo 30, how much does spoke selection matter? Would I generally order spokes myself or leave that in the hands of the local bike shop that I'd get to assemble the wheels for me? I'm assuming a matching (non-power) 20-spoke hub from Powertap in the front.

Still wondering why the Powertap GS (direct pull spoke) hub is on deep sale and the G3 (j-bend spoke) hub isn't, odd.

Re: all-around wheel upgrade advice [niccolo] [ In reply to ]

Jul 8, 16 2:32

Post #13 of 77 (5655 views)

I have my hub and rim that I bought.

I'm letting the local shop supply the spokes and nipples. I've never had a wheel built up before but I'm trying to support a great local shop as best I can. I did call them before I bought anything and they were good with the plan and told me they would have everything in stock that they needed.

BTW, the Flo guys have been great also. I've emailed with Jon a bunch to double check on having the shop build the wheels and some other details. Great guys. If you haven't already give them a listen on the cycling time trial podcast.

Re: all-around wheel upgrade advice [Canadian] [ In reply to ]

Jul 8, 16 5:25

Post #14 of 77 (5598 views)

Canadian wrote:

niccolo wrote:

Canadian wrote:

Oh... ok, I misread that. Best of luck in your search for a new wheel.

Thanks, I tweaked it slightly to make sure it was clear.

For what it's worth, your Flo 30s are still in the running, seem to be popular and very reasonably priced. I'm trying to get a sense of what the reasonably priced alternatives would be, especially since, given my priorities, weight seems like an important criterion (to support acceleration, nimble handling, climbing, etc.), since overall handling is more important than raw speed to me (of course, if it were just about raw speed I'd be looking at deeper rims, and I wouldn't be riding a Roubaix with aerobars, either).

Remember that during accelerations, aerodynamics are about 49 times more important than weight... and the FLO 30 definitely has some aero credibility. Tom A. wrote an article on that here on ST. It might surprise you. His study was done on a 400g difference in mass.

Here's a link to the article http://www.slowtwitch.com/...nd_Inertia_2106.html

I think I saw a post from a friend of Jackmott on Facebook once, it showed the lighter wheels only had an advantage from a dad stop, and was only slightly ahead up to maybe 20mph, then the more aero wheel pulled ahead and then just destroyed the lighter wheel. IF you can get light and aero that's great, but you will spend a ton more money and probably lose serviceability and durability.

Board member Turningscrews just cracked a freehub body on his Zipp wheel. they are aluminum. My cassette was almost seized on mine because the cogs wear grooves into the shell. Unless your trying to win an uphill sprint in the TdF and sponsors give you free wheels so you use them a season and sell them... anything other than steel for a freehub body is just stupid IMO. I'll probably send mine in to Zipp this winter and have them replace it under warranty.

TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

Re: all-around wheel upgrade advice [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]

Jul 8, 16 6:02

Post #15 of 77 (5574 views)

Titanium freehubs such as those used in Dura Ace or White Industries hubs are pretty immune to cassette bite as well.

Re: all-around wheel upgrade advice [niccolo] [ In reply to ]

Jul 8, 16 7:25

Post #16 of 77 (5532 views)

niccolo wrote:

Canadian wrote:

Just FYI, the FLO 30s come in 20, 24, 28, 32 drilling configurations which can easily be built for riders on the "heavier side". Our 28 hole Clydesdale build will work for riders up to 242lbs. If you are over that weight, then I would recommend working with a builder who can help build a wheel that will suit you well.

If you have any additional questions, just let me know.

Chris

Thanks! I meant that your Flo 30s were a little on the heavier side. I'm 160 lbs, so my own weight shouldn't constrain my wheel choices.

Aero still beats weight. Flo 30/30 set (1624 grams) on Alpe d'Huez beat a lightweight climbing wheelset (1100 grams) in Flo's computer simulation, by 2 seconds. Not a big difference but as the climbing becomes less severe, the Flo 30/30 gets faster and faster.

http://flocycling.blogspot.com/...-aero-vs-weight.html

Re: all-around wheel upgrade advice [niccolo] [ In reply to ]

Jul 8, 16 7:53

Post #17 of 77 (5511 views)

I would suggest Sapim CX-Ray bladed spokes and don't buy them from your local shop.

Re: all-around wheel upgrade advice [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]

Jul 8, 16 8:38

Post #18 of 77 (5483 views)

jimatbeyond wrote:

I would suggest Sapim CX-Ray bladed spokes and don't buy them from your local shop.

Why? Are they going to overcharge by a huge amount?

Re: all-around wheel upgrade advice [svennn] [ In reply to ]

Jul 8, 16 8:44

Post #19 of 77 (5481 views)

Yes.

I have seen a shop charge someone $5 per spoke plus $100 per wheel for building them.

The full retail price on CX-Ray spokes is $3.50 and they can be purchased for a lot less.

Re: all-around wheel upgrade advice [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]

Jul 8, 16 8:57

Post #20 of 77 (5470 views)

jimatbeyond wrote:

Yes.

I have seen a shop charge someone $5 per spoke plus $100 per wheel for building them.

The full retail price on CX-Ray spokes is $3.50 and they can be purchased for a lot less.

Thanks for the heads up. I called and they have them for under $3 in silver $3.09 in black so I'm good with that.

Re: all-around wheel upgrade advice [niccolo] [ In reply to ]

Jul 8, 16 10:08

Post #21 of 77 (5435 views)

You really should reconsider the FLO 30. Based on what you are looking for (light wheel, good in crosswinds, wider rim, able to handle 25mm Gp's) the Flo is damn near perfect. I have been using a set for training and couldn't be happier with them. For the price, you will not find a better new wheel. Their customer service is also great. Bonus: you get to pick the color of the stickers and can swap them out easier to match your bike(s)! As far as racing goes, you could simply put an aerojacket on the rear 30.

Or consider the new Flo 45 CC's. The specs look amazing.

Re: all-around wheel upgrade advice [treyedr] [ In reply to ]

Jul 8, 16 11:10

Post #22 of 77 (5405 views)

treyedr wrote:

You really should reconsider the FLO 30. Based on what you are looking for (light wheel, good in crosswinds, wider rim, able to handle 25mm Gp's) the Flo is damn near perfect. I have been using a set for training and couldn't be happier with them. For the price, you will not find a better new wheel. Their customer service is also great. Bonus: you get to pick the color of the stickers and can swap them out easier to match your bike(s)! As far as racing goes, you could simply put an aerojacket on the rear 30.

Or consider the new Flo 45 CC's. The specs look amazing.

For real Flo30 is probably the way to go.

BTW a GP 23mm on a Flo is about as wide as a GP 25mm on other rims. Really as far as aero goes, the 23mm is a perfect match for the Flo rim profile.

Re: all-around wheel upgrade advice [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]

Jul 8, 16 12:45

Post #23 of 77 (5378 views)

For a budget wheel build of the Flo 30s, how strong do you think the argument is for the Sapim CX-Ray spokes? My impression is generic spokes are maybe $1/spoke, i.e. $44 for both front (20) and back (24), whereas the CX-Rays are more like $3.50, so $154 total. Do you think the CX-Rays are worth an extra $100+?

Also, perhaps a dumb question--assuming I order them myself, is it obvious what length I need to pair a Powertab GS rear and non-power front hub with Flo 30s?

Re: all-around wheel upgrade advice [niccolo] [ In reply to ]

Jul 8, 16 12:51

Post #24 of 77 (5373 views)

The spoke length on the GS hub is very straightforward.
http://powertap.com/...oke-length-chart.pdf

Bladed CX-Ray spokes are far easier tension, than round spokes, on a straight pull hub.

Re: all-around wheel upgrade advice [niccolo] [ In reply to ]

Jul 8, 16 12:52

Post #25 of 77 (5372 views)

niccolo wrote:

For a budget wheel build of the Flo 30s, how strong do you think the argument is for the Sapim CX-Ray spokes? My impression is generic spokes are maybe $1/spoke, i.e. $44 for both front (20) and back (24), whereas the CX-Rays are more like $3.50, so $154 total. Do you think the CX-Rays are worth an extra $100+?

Also, perhaps a dumb question--assuming I order them myself, is it obvious what length I need to pair a Powertab GS rear and non-power front hub with Flo 30s?

Im just sayin, Flo has all your answers. http://flocycling.blogspot.com/...amic-difference.html

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