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A thought about short-course draft-legal triathlon
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Usually this topic comes up when I talk with friends (triathletes) and some of them agree and others do not. What do you think? Brett Sutton (who really reminds me a kind of Dr. House of triathlon) is quite convincing in this interview.

The ITU formats are unrewarding with those stronger at swimming and biking.
Last edited by: alesinho: Jul 17, 15 15:58
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Re: A thought about short-course draft-legal triathlon [alesinho] [ In reply to ]
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alesinho wrote:
Usually this topic comes up when I talk with friends (triathletes) and some of them agree and others do not. What do you think? Brett Sutton (who really reminds me a kind of Dr. House of triathlon) is quite convincing in this interview.

The ITU formats are unrewarding with those stronger at swimming and biking.

It depends how you look at it. If you suck at swimming and miss the lead bike pack you are never going to catch the leaders. If you suck at handling your bike, accelerating out of corners, or keeping up with surges you'll get dropped from a pack and have to expend more energy making up time on the run.
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Re: A thought about short-course draft-legal triathlon [alesinho] [ In reply to ]
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This season, ITU draft legal has shown us that good swimmers are rewarded. How many times have Mola and Murray been out of the race because of their swimming ability?
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Re: A thought about short-course draft-legal triathlon [Jason N] [ In reply to ]
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Jason N wrote:
If you suck at swimming and miss the lead bike pack you are never going to catch the leaders.

Unless you have a domestique who'll wait for you in T1 then pull you up to the lead pack (I'm looking at the US Women's team specifically here).
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Re: A thought about short-course draft-legal triathlon [ClayDavis] [ In reply to ]
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ClayDavis wrote:
Jason N wrote:
If you suck at swimming and miss the lead bike pack you are never going to catch the leaders.


Unless you have a domestique who'll wait for you in T1 then pull you up to the lead pack (I'm looking at the US Women's team specifically here).

Top swimmers just as easily could have a domestique which can negate the ability to bring you back up to the pack. Also, with regards to the AG ranks where swimming ability is much more diverse...you're going to see much bigger gaps between the good swimmers and the sucky swimmers. Too big to bridge even if you had a domestique.
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Re: A thought about short-course draft-legal triathlon [Jason N] [ In reply to ]
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Top swimmers just as easily could have a domestique which can negate the ability to bring you back up to the pack.//

This really is not true. the lead group of swimmers is often a half dozen or so when the heat is really on with top swimmer putting the hammer down. I defy you to just go find a bunch of guys that can hang with that group, that also would be good enough on the bike to be a domestic with basically the best riders in ITU.


Now if you are talking the middle of the field, which can be 40 to 50 guys, there are a lot more possibilities for domestics. Still not plentiful, as we have seen over the years, but there have been many. I can't think of one single off the front swimmer that has been, or is a domestic. There are guys that make the front group and work their asses off, but that is for themselves. It is in their best interest to work like a domestic, as they are usually sub par runners.


The top runners that can contend with the B's and Gomez, well they are the ones in need of that domestic, and cannot overcome even a 30 second gap usually to the leaders in big events. The front group really doesn't need a domestic, as the best riders are right there in that top 6 to 9 usually. It would come in handy to have one, but it is not necessary for their survival. Not so much so for that 2nd pack.
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Re: A thought about short-course draft-legal triathlon [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry...for some odd reason (it's Friday) I thought this was about AG draft legal triathlon.
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Re: A thought about short-course draft-legal triathlon [alesinho] [ In reply to ]
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Draft legal is the only viable race format for ITU unless the fields were cut drastically, even then they would all still come out too close and it would be a farce trying to enforce draft-zones...moreover it would be more boring TV viewing (speaking personally).

The reality is that biking in ITU is harder than it looks, those opening minutes are crazy hard as packs are formed/people try and bridge up. It's a shame Auckland and Madrid are no longer on the calendar. But with Rio (crazy steep hills), Stockholm (which a few people have rated it as a harder bike course than Auckland) there are still courses that reward the really strong bikers. Third, running well in triathlon is pretty strongly dependent on how fresh you are off the bike- strong swim/bikers are rewarded by not being as stuffed as those who are weaker.

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Re: A thought about short-course draft-legal triathlon [alesinho] [ In reply to ]
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alesinho wrote:
Usually this topic comes up when I talk with friends (triathletes) and some of them agree and others do not. What do you think? Brett Sutton (who really reminds me a kind of Dr. House of triathlon) is quite convincing in this interview.

The ITU formats are unrewarding with those stronger at swimming and biking.

The reason I like draft legal is it's very unrewarding for strong single sport athletes in any of the three. Good swimmer? You'll be caught on the bike. Good cyclist? You'll struggle to break away on the bike or you'll have been dropped on the swim. Good runner? You may not even make it to the run and certainly not at the front. You really need to have quite a high minimum standard in all to have a shot at winning. It appears to favour swim/ runners but I think the strong cyclists are missing a trick some times. You can ride with the intention to hurt the rest of the field quite effectively in a bunch and the more team tactics that come in and the more like high level crit racing it becomes the more interesting it will be.

I think in non draft stuff you can be outstanding in one (most likely bike or run) and let the others slide and still have good success. This leaves it more open for single sport athletes to come in and do well. I don't like this so much even though in reality that description fits me. I can't swim well or run well but I can cycle ok. Not well enough to be a good cyclist but well enough for some success in triathlon. Draft legal makes competitors like me irrelevant and forces you to be a good all round triathlete and this is good no? You want races to be won by good triathletes not mediocre cyclists.

Iain

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Re: A thought about short-course draft-legal triathlon [alesinho] [ In reply to ]
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Its the best format all around. It's much better to watch. I feel like there is more talent in the draft legal racing. And having done both styles draft legal is more fun then non drafting.
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Re: A thought about short-course draft-legal triathlon [JT_Dennen] [ In reply to ]
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JT_Dennen wrote:
Its the best format all around. It's much better to watch. I feel like there is more talent in the draft legal racing. And having done both styles draft legal is more fun then non drafting.

I second this. While I enjoyed my time in triathlons, the one race where I was, 100% psyched and excited about was the clermont draft legal tri. And I got my ass handed to me, but it was worth it to be in that type of a race. If draft legal racing were to become as mainstream as say ironman or even your backyard tri's I'd go back to tri racing immediately.
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Re: A thought about short-course draft-legal triathlon [PatrickOfSteele] [ In reply to ]
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I did that race in 2013 as well. Was way more exciting then any other triathlon I did. I also found it harder then any other one I did too.
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Re: A thought about short-course draft-legal triathlon [JT_Dennen] [ In reply to ]
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JT_Dennen wrote:
I did that race in 2013 as well. Was way more exciting then any other triathlon I did. I also found it harder then any other one I did too.

What do you know, we did the same race the same year.
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Re: A thought about short-course draft-legal triathlon [JT_Dennen] [ In reply to ]
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JT_Dennen wrote:
Its the best format all around. It's much better to watch. I feel like there is more talent in the draft legal racing. And having done both styles draft legal is more fun then non drafting.

I would not say that it is the 'best' format, only that it is a different format. Different types of athletes do well in olympic distance draft legal races vs olympic distance non draft races. But I am not trying to discount draft-legal tri racing, it can make for a great race format, I have done a couple of them. But why aren't there a lot more of them available for non-pros in the US? There should be. To me, it is so odd that 99.9% of triathletes race one type of triathlon (non-draft), and less than 1% race a completely different type of triathlon (draft-legal). Otherwise, we are kind of creating two different kinds of sports, and two different types of athletes.

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Re: A thought about short-course draft-legal triathlon [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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I'm with you - I'd love to do a draft-legal race. Should have done the one in Detroit last year. It would be interesting to see what a truly diverse AG race would look like (diverse in terms of age/ ability). I assume the dynamic would be different from a WTS race.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: A thought about short-course draft-legal triathlon [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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It would probably be pretty safe too, no more dangerous than a typical a century or grand fondo, or maybe safer because it is only 25 miles of biking vs 100 miles.

I think that part of the key for safe and successful draft legal amateur tri races is to just not have a looped (crit style) course.

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Re: A thought about short-course draft-legal triathlon [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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Absolutely - 1 loop sounds best. Still would want road bikes, I assume.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: A thought about short-course draft-legal triathlon [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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I think any road or tri bike outfitted with drop bars would be fine.
With clip-ons optional, but allowed.

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Re: A thought about short-course draft-legal triathlon [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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As long as I can use my Speedpack!

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: A thought about short-course draft-legal triathlon [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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My club did a few (3 in one day) super sprint draft legal triathlons at Island Lake. It was unofficial but still a lot of fun.

I invited a few other local clubs but none from as far away as Lansing.

We're planning on doing it again near the end of August/beginning of September if you are interested.

jaretj
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Re: A thought about short-course draft-legal triathlon [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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Clip-ons are forbidden for AG draft-legal as of 2015, per ITU regulations.

And a good thing, too. In centuries and granfondos there are way too many people with those, who refuse a polite request that they stop using their aerobars if they're sitting centimetres from your back wheel. In a more competitive situation it'd be havoc.

I've done a few mass DL events, on a 20km loop. In several cases did half my peloton crash, just a few wheels behind me. Still, great fun (even as an average swimmer) and very social, too - after an hour of riding, you get to know these strangers for a change!

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Re: A thought about short-course draft-legal triathlon [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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I'm saying best in my own personal opinion. Clearly non draft is good too, but I feel like the draft legal represents the highest amount of talent across the field. To keep the distance the same I believe the next draft legal guys beat the best non drafting guys in the sport. Put Greg Bennett in his prime against Gomez or a Brownlee and I'm going to put my money on one of those two.

Again NOT at all saying non drafting racing sucks, because as AGers 99.9% only get to do that. My personal experience was the most excitement I had leading up to a race was the two draft legal ones. It was very different where there's a lot more to it rather then just ride my numbers. Everything felt like it played off each other rather then more of an individual event.
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Re: A thought about short-course draft-legal triathlon [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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MI_Mumps wrote:
As long as I can use my Speedpack!

Well, of course.

Wink

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Re: A thought about short-course draft-legal triathlon [tessar] [ In reply to ]
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tessar wrote:
Clip-ons are forbidden for AG draft-legal as of 2015, per ITU regulations.


Oh yes, the ITU.
Because next, the ITU, in their great wisdom, will remove bike legs from triathlons because they are also too hazardous for AG racing !

I think AG athletes can be educated to NOT USE THEIR AEROBARS WHEN IN ANY PACK OF ANY SIZE (except when pulling/leading), OR WHEN SITTING ON ANYONE'S WHEEL. People aren't all geniuses but they're not dumb either. They want to stay alive and keep their faces intact. Pros manage to use their aerobars safely in crit style triathlons. And I think, with proper education and motivation, that AG athletes can be taught to use their aerobars selectively in a single loop type draft legal tri. It just needs to be taught and emphasized. And one could even add a penalty if an athlete fails to comply and is seen by a course marshal.

Heck, we could go totally crazy and even add a category system to US tri racing, with categories based on experience and race results. Because racing by age group is a unsafe practice in the water and on the bike. Very unsafe for advanced athletes. And profoundly unsafe for beginners.

Greg @ dsw

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Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Jul 19, 15 17:49
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Re: A thought about short-course draft-legal triathlon [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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jaretj wrote:
My club did a few (3 in one day) super sprint draft legal triathlons at Island Lake. It was unofficial but still a lot of fun.

I invited a few other local clubs but none from as far away as Lansing.

We're planning on doing it again near the end of August/beginning of September if you are interested.

jaretj

Hey - let me know for sure! Busy time for us as we put on a kids' race in early September, but I am very interested. Island Lakenis less than an hour iirc.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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