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Zwift: Dumb vs. Smart
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Been using Zwift a bit for a few months with a dumb trainer + Power2Max NG.

And it was pretty humbling. I'm a decent Cat 2 (masters) cyclist, and can hang with P12 races without extended climbs, so it was tough adjusting to getting dropped constantly, even by triathlon rides, etc. But I got used to it, learned to live with it.

The I caved in and got a Kickr. Correctly calibrated.

And suddenly I'm straight gangster. Dropping biatches left and right. Getting sprint and KOM jerseys, then winning the race.

So I thought that maybe one of the two PMs (Kickr vs. P2M was off). So I ran them simultaneously. And, no, they track surprisingly well. The Kickr *maybe* a little higher at higher wattages, e.g. 1000W+. But those high wattages only account for a small fraction of races. Not enough to account everything.

Does Zwift inherently favor smart trainers? The conspiracy part of my brain says they could favor smart trainers to sell more smart trainers, which is in their interest.

Last edited by: trail: Sep 8, 17 21:11
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Re: Zwift: Dumb vs. Smart [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Does Zwift inherently favor smart trainers? The conspiracy part of my brain says they could favor smart trainers to sell more smart trainers, which is in their interest.

Not that I'm aware of. Your speed is all w/kg (as well as equipment, terrain, drafting, powerups, etc). Zwift doesn't sell trainers, nor should they favor smart trainers. Smart trainers are the 'premium experience' but is far from the only experience on the platform.

Shane Miller - GPLama
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Re: Zwift: Dumb vs. Smart [gplama] [ In reply to ]
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Zwift definitely does not favor one trainer to another. As Shane mentioned, Zwift does not sell nor promote any trainers. Maybe you're stronger then you thought. Keep in mind, there are far more every day cyclists on Zwift then racers.
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Re: Zwift: Dumb vs. Smart [kkerns] [ In reply to ]
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But the point here is being missed, IMO. Same W/kg using Power2Max or smart trainer. So why the struggle with Power2Max and killing it with the Kickr? Is something misconfigured? OP, can you put the Power2Max bike on the Kickr? Do the same course, same wattage, examine speed. Or same speed, what is the necessary wattage (comparing the two approaches). This might be more quantitative than 'in some race I struggle, then I'm killing it'....
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Re: Zwift: Dumb vs. Smart [giorgitd] [ In reply to ]
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Correct.

If you are using the P2M meter as power source on the smart or dumb trainer, it doesn't matter. It is the same power meter. Just use the KICKR as the controllable trainer.

200w at 60kg is the same regardless of what trainer you are hooked up to.

Something is wrong if there is suddenly a big difference.

Is your P2M being calibrated regularly?
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Re: Zwift: Dumb vs. Smart [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Been using Zwift a bit for a few months with a dumb trainer + Power2Max NG.

And it was pretty humbling. I'm a decent Cat 2 (masters) cyclist, and can hang with P12 races without extended climbs, so it was tough adjusting to getting dropped constantly, even by triathlon rides, etc. But I got used to it, learned to live with it.

The I caved in and got a Kickr. Correctly calibrated.

And suddenly I'm straight gangster. Dropping biatches left and right. Getting sprint and KOM jerseys, then winning the race.

So I thought that maybe one of the two PMs (Kickr vs. P2M was off). So I ran them simultaneously. And, no, they track surprisingly well. The Kickr *maybe* a little higher at higher wattages, e.g. 1000W+. But those high wattages only account for a small fraction of races. Not enough to account everything.

Does Zwift inherently favor smart trainers? The conspiracy part of my brain says they could favor smart trainers to sell more smart trainers, which is in their interest.

Your PM could be having a lot of small dropouts that the smart trainer does not have. It could also just have to do with ping rates to the server, something that i am sure is an issue for a lot of people. Just because you have fast internet does not mean you have an advantage in the server, you could actually be disadvantaged. The Zwift servers are terrible and add in a generally senseless draft effect coding system these problems are common. The draft effect is weird, i guess it only gives a 10-15% advantage to people drafting but the instant that gap opens you are at a massive disadvantage.
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Re: Zwift: Dumb vs. Smart [trail] [ In reply to ]
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The only two things I can think of is that maybe you didn't have your weight set up properly when you first set up zwift and didn't think twice about it until you set up your new trainer. Or you thought you were using your P2M, but in reality you were using virtual power the whole time while using the dumb trainer to feed into zwift.
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Re: Zwift: Dumb vs. Smart [trail] [ In reply to ]
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I tried using Zwift with my powermeter and rollers the last two winters. Both times I quit because I kept getting dropped in the races. Got dropped in the As, got dropped in the Bs, was finally able to hang in the Cs for about 45 mins...

I'm a Cat 1. I win real bike races but I get dropped in fake ones.

I'm really curious about trying it with a smart trainer.
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Re: Zwift: Dumb vs. Smart [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Zwift code just takes power from a sensor and uses it directly in the physics equations. The core of the code has no actual idea where the power came from so that the programmers don't have to worry about the hardware side of things (altho, they certainly could query and figure out where it came from if we need to, for instance to unlock a special jersey for that trainer).

I'm not sure how to explain your situation other than maybe under hard accelerations your tire would slip on a classic style trainer robbing you of sprint reaction, and the direct drive nature of the kickr means tire slipping is no longer an issue?

Next test would be to pair your power meter as the power meter, just like you did before, and have the kickr be just there as the controllable trainer.
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Re: Zwift: Dumb vs. Smart [rubik] [ In reply to ]
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rubik wrote:
I tried using Zwift with my powermeter and rollers the last two winters. Both times I quit because I kept getting dropped in the races. Got dropped in the As, got dropped in the Bs, was finally able to hang in the Cs for about 45 mins...

I'm a Cat 1. I win real bike races but I get dropped in fake ones.

I'm really curious about trying it with a smart trainer.

That was me. Exactly. Except Cat 2.

Now I'm at least near the front of almost any Zwift "A" race.
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Re: Zwift: Dumb vs. Smart [trail] [ In reply to ]
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So have you done two races and recorded one with kickr and one with p2m? Also are you using the kickrs pm or the p2m? Im pretty certain you have this undee control.

Then i ca only think of a few things:
Tire slipping on dumb trainer: less power outout.
Running out of gear on the dumb trainer so not able to push the big numbers?
Or the opposite on the dumb trainer you would put out alot of power going down hill which would yield little gain thus tiring your legs for the rest of the race?
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