Doesn't the Super 9 also have a greater weight bearing capacity?

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Punching cockroaches from day 1.

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http://www.tri-junkie.com/

Sub-9 has the toroidal bulge--almost like having a 1080 or an 880 with the spokes filled in. It's tough to fit the sub-9 in the chainstays of some bikes--like the P4. The sub-9 seems to work better with 21mm tires while the Super-9 seems more adapted to 23mm tires.

I think they weigh about the same and similar from an aero perspective.

The Super-9 is flat but I think thicker which may be what thecomment about Firecrest implied.

I have a Sub-9 and like it aq great deal--it's a very comfortable disc to ride--more so than my old 900...

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

Sub-9 is ALWAYS faster OUTSIDE of a bike. Super-9 is faster INSIDE of SOME bikes; e.g., inside of a bike with a lot of rear wheel cover and a VERY good seattube (aerodynamically) - P3, Shiv, Transition, Trek SC, etc. Sub-9 is faster in a stand, because what it does really well is keep the air attached. But what Super-9 does really well is the same as that picture showing how FC is a "Kamm-esque" design.



Airflow off the backside of a Super-9 is cleaner than it is off of a Sub-9 *IF THE AIR COMING ONTO THE WHEEL IS CLEAN.* So if the airflow coming onto the wheel comes on cleanly because of really good bike design, like it would for a bike with a lot of rear wheel cover and a really good leading edge on the seattube, then airflow off the "trailing edge" of the wheel becomes more important, and that's where Super-9 shines.

So if you run a *FRAME* where the leading edge is clean by virtue of frame design, then trailing edge aerodynamics becomes the trump card. In the case of my bike - a Transition (or a Shiv) - the Super9 will be the marginally faster wheel. But it's VERY dependent on the frame.

It's also important to consider that the Sub9 has significantly more vertical compliance than the Super9. I didn't perceive this to be an issue, but I'm also really light and put out a pretty solid w/kg, which means even less weight on the saddle, so I also think I'm less sensitive to it. I think both wheels handle very well, though I'm also sure I could tell you in a blind test which rear wheel I was riding due to the different compliance and handling characteristics of the wheels.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

You can easily see the difference in disc profile, to see what Rappstar is saying makes intuitive sense.

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People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. George Orwell

It's even easier to see if you were to actually see the entire wheel in profile. It appears from that diagram that the Super9 is simply a wider parrallel disc, but it isn't. It does have a very slight "pitch" to it. It's not very much, but there is some.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Jordan,

Would you think the Super 9 would be a good fit under a Parlee TT?

I have been wanting to get a Super 9 with a PowerTap, but $3,000 for a wheel that will get less that 500 miles a year use has been something I can't swallow yet.

I am currently 6 foot and around 205-210, this next year I plan to race in the 180's. I am scared the Sub 9 would not handle my weight well and would rather be safe than sorry when it comes to dropping that kind of coin.

Thanks!

JT

P.S. Will you be doing a thread on your IMAZ nurtition or Power data from last weekend?

I'm not Jordan obviously but I've raced at 180 pounds on the sub 9 with no problems....mt FTP is typically close to 300 watts....

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

I honestly don't know enough about the Parlee to speculate. It *seems* like a well executed bike, but it's also the companies first "real" TT bike.

Personally, I'd get a Sub9. To me, it's like the old choice between the 1080 and 808 (until the new 808 which is faster than the 1080 came out). The 1080 was faster in some circumstances, but it came at a price. And I'd say the same in this case. The Sub9 is what I would say should be the first-choice disc for most riders, because it's the fastest wheel in a lot of bikes, and it's what most people will perceive the most comfort and ease of handling (cornering) with.

However, you might indeed benefit from the increased stiffness of the Super9.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Jordan, can you elaborate and incorporate bottles and cages?
if there is a bottle on the seat-tube, should we assume it is enough of a mangler to render this moot? looking at the new Felt here ...
could the "clean air" be maintained if the only cage was on the down-tube? thinking classic P3 set up ...

and thanks for the tutorials. this is cool.

Dave

It would depend on the bike. And the yaw angle. But, for example, on the Specialized Shiv & Transition, the Virtue aerobottle doesn't measurably impact the overall aerodynamics of the frame. It doesn't make it faster - as Cervelo says the integrated bottle on the P4 does - but it also doesn't slow it down. So in that case, the best conclusion would be that it shouldn't matter that you're using a bottle.

But on other bikes, certainly a bottle on the seattube could POTENTIALLY be enough of a disturbance that the Sub9 might end up being "better" since it's better at keeping airflow attached. But really, you're asking me to speculate on the sort of thing that really you'd have to test in the tunnel. And there are WAY too many bikes - and bottles - to make that really practical.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Yikes. Whoever created that "picture" doesn't know one thing about aerodynamics.

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The Triathlon Squad

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So what do the Genius's say?
I ride a Trek 9.9 (the last version before the SC)

My TT's average 30mph with a Renn 575 disc and normally a Hed 3 up front.
Which disc would be faster?....Hed Stinger...Sub-9...or the other 9 and by how much?
Thanks for letting me pick your brain...

Seems to me that a super-9 with a 23mm tire, which seems to be what many people would ride in back in an ironman, *but i could be wrong,* would be only slightly more aero as a 900 tubular with a 19mm tire, being that the difference between wheel/tire- 2.6mm for the 900/19mm, and 4.5mm for the super 9/23mm. it seems as though both would have a similar "kamm" effect. Again, i could be totally incorrect here. it also begs to be asked: is it worth $400 more?

yes i was, but i think the generalities provide enough to think about. thanks for responding.

Hello John, and welcome to Slowtwitch.

You are the John Patterson who has been slandered with doping allegations correct? You were anecdotally mentioned numerous times after USADA showed up at a race in NC and supposedly targeted your Carolina Masters team, correct? It has been mentioned many times that you were there to race that day and left without participating.

I have been looking forward to hearing the explanation directly from you. Did you or did you not pin your number on at the Harrisburg crit and then leave without racing?

I am not joining those who want to crucify you based upon heresay and speculation. I want you to tell me you have been pushing that power since your Jr. Nat TT days and training clean and smart ever since. I want to hear that you came down with a stomach bug or sprained your ankle at the last minute. Or even that you weren't even at that race and peope are full of shit. Tell me this is all a misunderstanding.

Please tell me those things.

I spoke to Denham at Zipp and he mentioned the Super-9 is optimized with a 21mm tire and that you lose 2W with a 23mm tire. Anyone else hear this/ can confirm that?

I know what the wind tunnel says...

http://www.biketechreview.com/...5&category_id=10

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People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. George Orwell

Oh boy.

 Giddyup....Answers???

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__________________________________________________
Official Polar Ambassador
http://www.google.com/...P7RiWyEVwpunlsc2JtQQ

You are correct. USADA made a special trip to NC to test the CM team.
Unfortunately for them,all of our tests came back negative....thus wasted tax payer money.

I didn't race and did not pin a number on because of mechanical issues.
I have never had a positive doping control and have had numerous controls in my career.

You also answered your own question. What kid rides a bike for a few monthes.....goes to the National TT championship...shatters the national junior record....all on a 27lb Schwinn Paramont?

I'm very lucky...I got good genes...and I don't need dope. Thanks

Thanks.

I think any one of those discs you mentioned would be a likely improvement over the flat Renn. Seems like the TTX is a bike with P3 like aero properties, including a well covered rear wheel and proper;y designed seat tube. In which case the Sup9 would likely be the one. But only the tunnel can tell. Or field testing with a PM. Are you a Chunger?

when Zipp first announced the Super 9 they hedged a lot of their marketing by differentiating it from the Sub 9. the Super is really stiff, therefore harsh, more appropriate for TT or short course tri, while the Sub is more flexy and better on the legs after 112 miles. does that distinction still exist? does it hold water?

and the USADA is funded by taxpayers?!? really? now I like it even less.

I'm very lucky...I got good genes...and I don't need dope. ?????? interesting choice of words

:) it's fun to give the fast guys crap :)

Interesting attitude, I would think someone with good genes would be grateful that testing is going on, and aggressively, so that they could have a better shot a competing on a fair level.

Do you think that they should quit testing?

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter