Yet another question about replacing P3C

Apr 8, 15 3:41

Post #1 of 53 (7625 views)

As this is my first post here on ST I would like to say hello to all of you.

I would like to know your opinion whether it's worth to upgrade my Cervelo P3 2011 to P5 or similar `superbike`.
Reason to upgrade is apparent - want to have opportunity to show my daughter those famous lava fields and volcano park.
My P3 is 51 with Pro Missile Evo mounted with standard Vision stem and one spacer between base bar and extensions, Rotor 3D+ with P2M and Flo 90s and disc cover.
Can't say it's slow as on relatively small watts I've managed to go 4.45 in Copenhagen (http://tpks.ws/0UVX) and 2.14 on half in Poznań (PL) (http://tpks.ws/gbP5).

My doubts are related as always to bang for buck factor - before trying to explain my wife that I will spend 3k$ to change the bike to be 3 minutes faster in a 4.5h race I need first justify it to myself.
But having in mind that those 3 minutes can be go and race or watch it on NBC then.. mastercard will pay for the rest.

P5 is my first though but I also consider Plasma5, SC9.x and Shiv. P5 has advantage to be already some time on the market so there are used/demo/outdated bikes with bargain prices.
I've even found one 54 Three with nice price - another question arose is it worth to buy Three and put my Pro bars on it or it is better to spend far more and go with Six.

Re: Yet another question about replacing P3C [michalp] [ In reply to ]

Apr 8, 15 4:09

Post #2 of 53 (7595 views)

Well you are bloody fast.

I'm on the same P3C as you and have toyed with a new frame, but I think I have achieved a lot of what a "superbike" could get me by making some choice upgrades. In my case I added a Tririg Sigma XF stem and Omega front brake. I also routed my shift cables through the top tube, so no cables on show from the front end at all, and I use the Sigma integrated cable stop for the center pull brake. That combined with my Hed Jet 9 and Renn disc at the back, I don't think I'm going to find anything much quicker.

Just my legs to worry about now.

But, the thing you need to consider is whether you can sensibly reproduce your position on a modern superbike frame. The P3C has lots of reach for very little stack.

Re: Yet another question about replacing P3C [knighty76] [ In reply to ]

Apr 8, 15 6:09

Post #3 of 53 (7513 views)

Quote:

P3C has lots of reach for very little stack

I have a 2009 P3C and was looking to upgrade to a new P3 or P5 because there is more stack, so I don't need as many spacers. Will upgrade as a reward(P3/5 w/Di2) to myself after I increase my FTP.

Re: Yet another question about replacing P3C [michalp] [ In reply to ]

Apr 8, 15 6:15

Post #4 of 53 (7507 views)

Those are some sick times.
Out of curiosity how many watts were you putting out for those times? Just curious as I wonder how slippery you already are? Perhaps there is room to work on position before a new bike?

I am no expert on this topic, just trying to get a feel for the data etc.

Re: Yet another question about replacing P3C [Triagain2] [ In reply to ]

Apr 8, 15 7:18

Post #5 of 53 (7450 views)

I've included links to training peaks for that races
IM CPH was 227W (236NP) - target was 250W and was more then real to achieve, but for some reasons it didn't go that good.
70.3 Poznan has very nice and fast (flat) course - 256W (260NP) it was only a training start as it was close to IM, but still it was 5th bike split
But I was riding harder on different events like 280+ - http://tpks.ws/eKHN

Last edited by: michalp: Apr 8, 15 7:27

Re: Yet another question about replacing P3C [michalp] [ In reply to ]

Apr 8, 15 7:31

Post #6 of 53 (7431 views)

My wife has both P3C and P5.. She loves her P3C more than P5.

You will not see a difference! Only, reason to upgrade would be to go DI2 other than that your P3 has everything you need.

Invest your money else where, coaching! Your swimming really needs to improve... sorry but 1h07 is slow! You could drop at least 5-7 minutes there!!! And if you get to Kona and you aren't a good swimmer, you will lose even more time down there to the field... the ocean swim there isn't easy!

IMO, you are not looking at the best angle to get to Kona. my two cents.

Good Luck.

Re: Yet another question about replacing P3C [michalp] [ In reply to ]

Apr 8, 15 7:38

Post #7 of 53 (7420 views)

Wow. I would love to have that speed at those numbers. Great work.
If I were you I would take a proper fit video and post it here. Let some of the wizards look at you, make sure all low hanging fruit has been picked before you start spending on a frame.

Re: Yet another question about replacing P3C [michalp] [ In reply to ]

Apr 8, 15 7:39

Post #8 of 53 (7417 views)

Pure speculation on my part but I think you'd be better served with finding a better option for the bottles you have both up front and behind the saddle, as well as a helmet that sits flatter on your back. Also consider one of the fast sleeved tri suits. That said, I think at your speed you are probably looking at diminishing gains? Definitely get that swim faster.

Re: Yet another question about replacing P3C [MTL] [ In reply to ]

Apr 8, 15 7:50

Post #9 of 53 (7394 views)

I can see that you already confronted me with IM results :)
My swim is getting better thanks to swim focus periods, I've already did 2 x 2weeks when I was swimming around 24km/week.
If someone is curious my results are listed here http://enduhub.com/en/drummer/
I'm already coached by I think one of the best coach you can find in Poland and progress we are doing is imo substantial.

Regarding sleeved tri suit - already read I think whole thread - LG M2 shirt and Huub DS long are available to try. Rest is only available online.

Re: Yet another question about replacing P3C [michalp] [ In reply to ]

Apr 8, 15 8:06

Post #10 of 53 (7355 views)

I think by getting out of the water faster you might be surrounded by faster riders, less crowd roads, might even have a better control of the pacing in front. Maybe by riding slower 2-3 minutes on the bike you might gain 5-8 minutes on the run. You have the speed to go 3h10-3h15 on the run.

Weeks of 24km swimming is pretty good. IMO the right direction to address. Sub 60 minutes should be a big Target in order to be a top age-grouper contender, you have the bike and somewhat the run.

Continue train hard, was there last year in Kona for racing. It's pretty damn cool... ;)

Re: Yet another question about replacing P3C [michalp] [ In reply to ]

Apr 8, 15 8:14

Post #11 of 53 (7347 views)

Irony...

When the P3 came out, I did some trialing on it, and because the P2C was now old technology, the price difference between the two had me look at the P2C and trial it... Then they offered me a chance on the P2 (non carbon). Which was the cheapest of all the bikes. Of course I had no real interest in the P2 (non carbon)...

And just saying ... while all three bikes were fit to me, and the same "size" ... the P2 (non carbon) was the most comfortable and fastest ride for me. I know !!!!!!

The lesson here is sometimes upgrading is not really upgrading ...

Regards

Re: Yet another question about replacing P3C [MTL] [ In reply to ]

Apr 8, 15 8:22

Post #12 of 53 (7337 views)

In Copenhagen there was no option to have clear road in my ag, I was in second to last wave to start so I was constantly overtaking till T2 line.
It was pretty annoying and also tiring since I had to make jumps far above my target power to overtake people on narrow dutch roads avoiding cones that split the road.
This was my first IM, so I didn't know what to expect and in the end I felt that I could push it a little more on the run.

The big day will be in Klagenfurt and luckily this time my ag is starting in 3rd wave.

Re: Yet another question about replacing P3C [michalp] [ In reply to ]

Apr 8, 15 8:24

Post #13 of 53 (7333 views)

I am in very similar boat. On a P4 51cm, go pretty fast for the watts I produce and am always lusting over a P5.

I can't bring myself to do it. I just think that the aero gains on the frame are marginal if any.

In my particular situation, I would also have trouble matching geometry (you might too).

If you like 51 on the old P3 (or P4), then you probably need a 48 on the new p3/P5. Even then, it won't be a super easy match if you happen to ride very low in the front.

If I were you, I would grab the low hanging fruit on my P3 (like bottle placement, front brake, maybe cable routing, etc), and save the money.

If I ever NEED a new bike, I will consider this again. That said, I crashed my P4 and decided to have it carbon repaired just because it works so well for me. . . .yet I still lust after the P5 of the new plasma, and occasionally a shiv TT.

Ironman Certified Coach

Currently accepting limited number of new athletes

Re: Yet another question about replacing P3C [michalp] [ In reply to ]

Apr 8, 15 8:32

Post #14 of 53 (7323 views)

Superbike isn't worth it, P3 with upgrades is the best value you're going to get.

Upgrade wheels, aerobar, clothing, helmet and brakes.

Visit a Wind Tunnel

Work on transition times.

For most, improving your run time will go a long long ways.

Pick your course, and peak for it.

Re: Yet another question about replacing P3C [Noof] [ In reply to ]

Apr 8, 15 9:44

Post #15 of 53 (7283 views)

Noof wrote:

Upgrade wheels, aerobar, clothing, helmet and brakes.

What wheels could he buy that would really make a difference over what he already has? We are talking minor improvements if at all.

Re: Yet another question about replacing P3C [nightfend] [ In reply to ]

Apr 8, 15 10:03

Post #16 of 53 (7257 views)

Same goes with aerobar - Pro Missile Evo is probably one of the best aftermarket you can buy.
Regarding breaks I could and probably will buy Tririg at least for front.
Clothing is only a mater of trying if LG m2 will lay as it should.

But with helmet I don't have any idea. I thought about getting something new but after reading this thread http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...up_to_date_P5483482/ and such article
http://teambikedoctor.org/...wind-tunnel-testing/ don't know if there is much sense without tunnel testing which unfortunately is not available in beautiful country of Poland.

Re: Yet another question about replacing P3C [michalp] [ In reply to ]

Apr 8, 15 10:06

Post #17 of 53 (7252 views)

Geepers dude excellent engine! Have fun putting more tech under your bum and safe riding!!

Re: Yet another question about replacing P3C [michalp] [ In reply to ]

Apr 8, 15 13:05

Post #18 of 53 (7159 views)

keep the p3.
train hard.
pick the right race.
save the money and spend it in getting your fam to kona when you qualify.

Re: Yet another question about replacing P3C [michalp] [ In reply to ]

Apr 8, 15 13:11

Post #19 of 53 (7152 views)

looks like you don't have many spacers under the stem, which mean you may not be able to fit on a p5 with the aduro bar.

If you can't fit on there with the aduro bar, may not be worth getting a p5.

The biggest low hanging fruit for your is probably shopping around for a great fitting sleeved tri suit. Save it for A races. That might saved 1minute + per ironman, possibly more.

Then are are numerous little details you could do:
omega break, sigma stem, vision aero skewers, top tube cable mod.

In totality those might add up to another minute.

The other option is upgrade to a P2 but you may need a very negatiev stem to make that fit too.

If you DO have a bunch of spacers and the P5 will hit your fit coordinates, than disregard all of this and get one =)

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Yet another question about replacing P3C [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

Apr 8, 15 13:20

Post #20 of 53 (7136 views)

I just talked to a guy who is a very top bike racer. He has been using a P2 for years. It was stolen from a race. He then bought a P5.

On his first use his comment to me is he is kinda bummed. It seemed faster on the flats but said the climbing was terrible. I have not talked
to him since to see if something was wrong in the setup.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: Yet another question about replacing P3C [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Apr 8, 15 13:22

Post #21 of 53 (7133 views)

bikes don't climb good or bad.
the p5 is a wee bit heavy so you wouldn't want to use it for a hill climb TT maybe.

h2ofun wrote:

I just talked to a guy who is a very top bike racer. He has been using a P2 for years. It was stolen from a race. He then bought a P5.

On his first use his comment to me is he is kinda bummed. It seemed faster on the flats but said the climbing was terrible. I have not talked
to him since to see if something was wrong in the setup.

.

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Yet another question about replacing P3C [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

Apr 8, 15 13:23

Post #22 of 53 (7131 views)

I don't have any spacers under the stem, there is one under the extension but it's like 5mm.

So i guess that p5 might not fit me right.

Re: Yet another question about replacing P3C [michalp] [ In reply to ]

Apr 8, 15 13:28

Post #23 of 53 (7119 views)

aduro might work. measure from floor to elbow pad
then measure from floor to BB
subtract - that is your pad stack

then go to the p5 geometry chart, and look up the available stack range, keeping in mind that the XLo configuration is no longer available
page 3:
http://www.cervelo.com/...e-71c6b8e317eb-0.pdf

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Yet another question about replacing P3C [michalp] [ In reply to ]

Apr 8, 15 13:31

Post #24 of 53 (7116 views)

You look great and are fast...how about a shave?

FYI - I had your exact bike w/ 2 spacers and went to a P5 - both size 54. Love both bikes!

Best wishes,

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Re: Yet another question about replacing P3C [michalp] [ In reply to ]

Apr 8, 15 22:58

Post #25 of 53 (7022 views)

The reason you haven't been to Kona, has nothing to do with the bike.
What is your swim and run? I don't know how you can bike 4:45 and not
make Kona.

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