This is a decent video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r57eU13l2mw

For getting a good understanding of the freestyle stroke with breakdown and description of each phase, drills, etc. swim speed secrets by Shiela Toarmina is a great read. It also has a companion workouts edition designed to teach a solid catch if you so choose.

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Thanks, I'll be sure to pick up a copy, reviews seem really great.

Also adult onset here. Swimming in the super shallow parts of the kids pool for a few minutes was a good way for me to focus on high elbow. There's just not enough room for straight arm.

I made that exact jump you want about 1.5 yrs ago, about 1:45-50 pace down to 1:25-30 pace for distance (1000+yds/meters).

At least for me, it was very little about technique, and all about power and muscular strength and arm endurance. Even now, when I swim sub 1:30s for distance, I can remember how weak my pull was at the slower speeds compared to how it feels now.

If you're pretty flat in the water, and aren't flopping all over the place, it's doubtful that technical changes are going to give you those 15sec/100. As another anecdote, I had a self-video about 6 months ago and saw that I was still dropping my elbow a lot, so I got Finis fulcrum forearm paddles to fix it or at least limit it, which it did. I self-videod again 6-8 wks after, and despite the significantly improved elbow, I was literally MAYBE 1sec/100 faster in the water.

I'm well aware of the physics of how water resistance is exponential so theoretically, reducing drag should give big dividends, but what I'm finding is that once you're pretty flat in the water (legs not dragging) and not flopping all over the place with unnecessary motions, you really can't streamline to save like 5sec per 100. It's more like 1sec/100, MAYBE 2sec/100.

And also as a helpful counterpoint - any swimmer who's swimming 1:25-30/100 (your target pace) for distance, will be able to be close to outswimming you even with added handicaps like wearing baggy pants, or even making them swim one-armed. (I can definitely swim faster than 1:50/100 right now with one-armed swimming, for example.) You can add all sorts of other big speed killing penalties like making them stick their entire face and neck all the way out of the water on every stroke, and we'll still swim faster than 1:45-50/100 because of our pull power and turnover.

I've posted a lot on my experience with the Vasa trainer as well, but just know that because it has a powermeter on it, I could see the objective power data on swimming 1:25/100 vs 1:45/100, and it's stunningly obvious and large. Like a 40watts range at 1:45-50 and 80 watts range at 1:25ish pace for me.

I'm an adult onset swimmer as well, and I agree with the idea that faster swimmers generally have better muscular endurance, and beginners have more to gain from fitness than technique.

I've joined my local Masters swim, but my favorite swimming references come from Sheila Taormina's workout cards http://www.sheilat.com. She definitely has authority in the field of swimming and it was the push I needed to work on speed, feel for water, and kicking(yes i know). Sheila doesn't subscribe to the triathlete's swimming easy movement, she emphasizes feel for water with very useful drills.

Her swim speed workout cards are waterproof, awesome, and around 20 USD; best swimming money I've ever spent. They even come with basic tips on technique.

Two things:

1. Make sure you have good body position. If your hips are sinking it's much harder to do EVF properly (since you have to flex the elbow more to get vertical). Using a pull buoy can be a big help here.

2. It should feel like your hand and forearm are one unit during the catch. You should feel water pressure on your forearm, not just your hand if you're doing it right.

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That makes total sense. Assuming power varies with the cube of speed; 40W at 1:47.5 would be 80.9W at 1:25.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
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Thanks folks. Good stuff!

I agree on the strength piece, been working on the foundation initially, think it's time to go to the next step now that I feel I have a "decent" understanding of balance, etc. In the beginning, too much to worry about. Now, I think I can focus on the catch and pull strength to get things progressing.

"I've posted a lot on my experience with the Vasa trainer as well, but just know that because it has a powermeter on it, I could see the objective power data on swimming 1:25/100 vs 1:45/100, and it's stunningly obvious and large. Like a 40watts range at 1:45-50 and 80 watts range at 1:25ish pace for me. "

So in order to drop the next 8-10" off your 100s, what do you suppose those watts will have to be?

That completely depends on the technical changes that the OP needs to make. My self taught breathing is just horrible, all of the strength and endurance I can muster doesn't overcome the basic lack of oxygen.

I'm completely lost as to why you are watching youtube videos and going to masters classes. I've never seen a slow swimmer that wasn't obviously slow for at least a few big reasons, if you're not getting any feedback then you need to find new classes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1KReTEXiBM


These tips from JonnyO are great.

Getting stronger and reducing drag are 2 key things. Keep working on refining that body position, it will pay off.


Triathletes will spend thousands to buy "free speed" on the bike but will ignore advice on how to do the same in the water for free.

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Not sure. Possibly in the 90-110 watt range, which is eminently doable, but would take me a lot of dedicated time practice and at least 8-9 hrs per week of pure swim training without a heavy bike/run load.

Honestly, even if it required 150 watt range, the yield on return would still be astronomically higher for me to invest in improving power rather than my drag/technique, as my total returns on drag reduction and technique refinement once I got faster than 1:55/100yds has been a grand total of, 2 sec/100. And I'm being totally optimistic. I've obviously gotten a ton more than that from working on the power.

Again, I'm not saying ditch all the technique - obviously if I started flailing in the water, I'd cause megadrag and offset a lot of my power gains. But I do think it's generally futile for a swimmer who's not thrashing and not with sinking legs (who will typically be going at least 1:55/100yds pace) to expect a 10-15sec/100 speed gain with drag reduction alone and with no significant power/fitness improvement. Whereas it's absolutely expected to get those gains if you commit to building the power behind it.

For raw beginners it's a different story - I'd never tell raw beginners with huge body position and stroke errors to ignore them and just go harder. I think it's a pretty good clue that if you go to the local masters group, and you're getting almost no technique feedback from multiple capable coaches on deck, you're ready to crank the power. The masters coaches I swim with have never given me any freestyle advice,even when I ask them for it, but the moment we switch it up to breast/fly/back which I never practice and am terrible at (really terrible!) it's like they can't shut up with the things I have to fix.

Do this drill 3x/week for 15 minutes. Has worked wonders for many. The book is a great read as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr570KZvyBQ

Another dead giveaway of the power vs technique argument: your first 100 is often times your fastest 100. Your technique is better because you're not as tired and sloppy - get stronger and you won't be as tired, can last longer, etc blah blah.

Actually, I've found with my Vasa trainer that this is likely more of a power phenomenon rather than technique. When I start up on my Vasa, if I start right up with a firm effort like I do in the pool, the first 100 power is higher than the other ones, even if I don't drop off any after the 3rd-4th 100. You can see it in the wattage.

But yes, I do agree that if you're toasted at the tail end of a hammerfest set, your technique will also start to lag, and that'll penalize you too. But I think there's a very real power effect that can account for that 'supranormal' speed for that first hard set - I often do sets like 20 x 100 in the pool, and even if 18-19 of them are literally dead on the second, like 1:25 over and over again (so I'm not flailing at all on the last one techniquewise), I might hit 1:21 or even 1:20 in that very first one. And I get that very same thing in terms of wattage numbers on the Vasa, so no surprise for me.

This looks like a great option for me! As I am time constrained for training, I don't get to the pool anywhere near enough (literally zero right now), but I could/should at least be doing this!

"Honestly, even if it required 150 watt range, the yield on return would still be astronomically higher for me to invest in improving power rather than my drag/technique, as my total returns on drag reduction and technique refinement once I got faster than 1:55/100yds has been a grand total of, 2 sec/100. And I'm being totally optimistic. I've obviously gotten a ton more than that from working on the power. " Lightheir


"Frontal drag forces are so important in swimming, that they overshadow the importance of propulsive power. Power is still important, but in the world of swimming, frontal drag trumps power." Gary Hall Sr.


Not really trying to start an argument with you here, just letting you know there may be another way. While I don't view GH as the ultimate authority on the subject of swimming (particularly open water environment), his is a voice worth more than a casual listen. GH quote above is linked to the article.

I'm well aware of GH and other definite experts on swimming.

I would have to take the contrary stance and actually disagree with GHSr for the type of swimming I'm talking about, which is what the OP describes - a BOMOP triathlon swimmer trying to become a MOP or FOMOP triathlon swimmer. That's power, power, more power to get that 15-20sec speed boost.

I do think that things are very different for the world of high level competitive swimming, where the difference between podium (or records) is often <1second, events are short, and high-volume swimming of over 15 hours a week with elite coaches are given amongst all athletes. When you're that maxxed out in physical training, I very well believe that a tiny correction in pull or kick or head position could be the make or break to get you that last 0.2-0.4 seconds since you probably can't train any harder to build more propulsion at that level.

That's a TOTALLY different beast than what I and the OP are talking about, which are lowly MOP or even BOP triathlon swimmers trying to make big gains (10+sec/100). I seriously doubt that even Gary Hall himself would promise the OP that much gain by just streamlining and not adding big propulsion, nor would he bet that a 1:20 swimmer would suddenly become a 1:50 swimmer because you make a small penalty change in his body position or stroke such as making him stick his head out of the water on every single stroke.

My advice has no bearing whatsoever on elite swimmers in elite competitions, but I feel is extremely relevant to MOP-BOP triathlon swimmers like the OP.

Yeah, I would have to agree, thanks for all the insight lightheir. Having not used the "swimming" muscles, they are not where they need to be, but feel like I'm at least building the foundation.

Regarding the earlier post about why watch Youtube videos and why I'm in a Master's class; I watch Youtube because I'm genuinely interested in learning outside of the pool, plus, it's nice to have visual references. I'm in the Master's class because I get to build and work on my endurance/confidence in the water. I went from a flailing fish, to being able to complete a couple longer triathlon distances and not be afraid of the swim. My coach offers tips here and there if it is something obvious, but there are also a lot of people in the class. I've went from 2:05-2:10 down to where I am now in three months, insignificant to some, but still good improvement to me in the short period of time. I see what you are getting at, but feel I am self aware enough now to make my own improvements, with the correct drills and tips. I could be completely wrong, but that's how I feel.

I really focused on my pull in this mornings session, pretty tired in different places after the set (which is seemingly a good sign). Thanks for all the help.

IMO he's more attuned to the needs of an open water swimmer than you might imagine. I went to a Race Club camp back in November and he was a big advocate of a shoulder-driven stroke with a high-turnover rate for the triathletes there. There was very little talk of streamlining. However a high school girl one lane over (who was crazy fast) received quite a lecture about head position and streamlining for her backstroke so.... I would say, from my experience, that he's attuned to the different needs of different swimmers in different environments and at different skill levels.

+1.

I really like the truism that swimming is "100% technique and 100% fitness". Lightheir is making the common mistake of trying to universalize his N=1 experience. Most adult onset swimmers need a lot of work in both areas. To say that there are limited gains to be made from technique and it's mostly fitness just isn't accurate for most adult onset swimmers. And it's not just about streamlining but also the efficiency of your pull. There's a guy at my pool that plugs away year after year at 3:00/100 pace and never gets any faster despite swimming reasonable volume. The guy has a horrible pull and until he fixes that he's never going to get much faster.

I haven't seen anyone here that seems to know their stuff advocate focusing primarily on technique and not also on fitness, that's a strawman.

I dropped my swim volume by 2-4,000 yards per week last fall since I was no longer training for an ironman but improved my cruising speed by 5-10 seconds a hundred in a short period of time because I made some technique breakthroughs. Over the course of my late adult onset swimming career, once I got past the initial rapid gains it's been a slow progression of gradually improving fitness, and a very inconsistent progression of improving technique, with a few breakthoughs that have led to some fairly quick gains here and there. YMMV.

I like this (above). Besides core work I have been doing "EVF" pull downs at the gym, starting with very little weight. There is an odd set of muscles that must work together to execute and good pull let alone a pull and catch with EVF. Really it's not a pull, put more of a push down (to feet) movement. I am not a weakling, but this move my arms and chest are seriously challenged to lift small weights. Especially my left arm at the initial power phase. Get it further down, no problem.

But that initial start point is what determines the shape of the FS pull and with it, efficiency.

I have improved quite a bit just by doing this once or twice a week.

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