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Xert Real-Time Garmin Connect IQ App
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Just read quickly through DC Rainmaker's review, and am curious to here STers' takes on how, if at all, this can be used. Would it be a data screen you'd display while doing an FTP test? Would the quest to bump up the real-time number in a 20-minute test lead to even higher false FTP results?
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Re: Xert Real-Time Garmin Connect IQ App [AKCrafty] [ In reply to ]
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Would love to see an assortment of results for people between 20 minute test values vs. xert values.
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Re: Xert Real-Time Garmin Connect IQ App [AKCrafty] [ In reply to ]
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today i went into xertonline for the first time
i synced last 2 years of Strava
I was training these days with my assumption of 260W FTP. It gave me 264W
I am impressed
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Re: Xert Real-Time Garmin Connect IQ App [AKCrafty] [ In reply to ]
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I've been happily using Xert for the last two seasons. Have you read DCR's review of the main Xert site? His review does a great job of capturing the usefulness of the app, including the FTP (and fitness signature) calculation, and the nuances of why you might want to or not want to use it as a triathlete.

The What's my FTP app is a bare-bones version of Xert's full-featured fitness signature calculator. Based on my limited testing, it works really well for a quick-and-dirty field test, and is very close to what the full Xert site calculates.

The idea isn't that you would use it in a 20-minute test—it has its own protocol—which is basically "ride until you're exhausted." Quickest/easiest way to do it is with a 2-minute balls-out effort. As long as you're completely spent at the end of it, you've got a decent estimate. If you only pushed 90% of the way, then try again as soon as you want—it will pick up where you left off.

I've found this useful to do quick tests of position changes. I've been moving cleat positions, pad heights, seat heights, and have found Xert's fitness signature calculator invaluable. I've been using this app to hone in on exactly how much power I'm losing when in aero vs. climbing position vs. full road position.

_____________________________________________________
George Dedopoulos | @geodee | geodee.com | Team Atomica | Toronto Triathlon Club
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Re: Xert Real-Time Garmin Connect IQ App [geodee] [ In reply to ]
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geodee wrote:
The What's my FTP app is a bare-bones version of Xert's full-featured fitness signature calculator. Based on my limited testing, it works really well for a quick-and-dirty field test, and is very close to what the full Xert site calculates.

The idea isn't that you would use it in a 20-minute test—it has its own protocol—which is basically "ride until you're exhausted." Quickest/easiest way to do it is with a 2-minute balls-out effort. As long as you're completely spent at the end of it, you've got a decent estimate. If you only pushed 90% of the way, then try again as soon as you want—it will pick up where you left off.

I get that the idea is that it'll give you an estimated FTP calculation base on daily rides/efforts. I'm curious what happens when a rider has that data page displayed during an FTP test (20-minute, 60-minute...whatever) and he now sees real-time where he's at. Extra motivation is right there.

I'm going to load it onto my 920 since I'm due for an FTP test as I hit an 8-week specialty phase for a 1/2 IM race. I have an accurate ftp number from a 40K race and will see how a 20-minute protocol with this available works out.
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Re: Xert Real-Time Garmin Connect IQ App [geodee] [ In reply to ]
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Did you use their workouts?

If so, how did you choose which ones to do. When I used them they had 3 or 4 workouts that were geared toward sprint time trialists and I got no suggestion for anything else to do.
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Re: Xert Real-Time Garmin Connect IQ App [AKCrafty] [ In reply to ]
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Ah, I get what you're saying. If it all works as it's designed, during a 20 or 60 minute steady state test, the calculated FTP should slowly increase to your actual FTP by the time you hit the wall. It very well could be a good motivator! Totally worth trying out! I'd be curious to hear how it works for you.

If you find it doesn't seem accurate, or if there is a particular situation that breaks the algorithm, the developers are pretty responsive, and would love the feedback.

Last time I did a 20-minute test, I didn't realize how much fitness I lost. I went in way too hard, and ran out of steam by the 12-minute mark. So at that point I just gave it all I had left, knowing that with an exhaustion-level exertion it would have enough data to work with. I got a useable FTP to work with, even though my 20-minute test was technically failed.

Inversely, if you're feeling strong at the end of a standard 20-minute test, pushing harder for the last 5 minutes is... okay, but not really standard protocol, and kinda craptastic. But Xert will figure it out if you keep going or push through to the end.

_____________________________________________________
George Dedopoulos | @geodee | geodee.com | Team Atomica | Toronto Triathlon Club
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Re: Xert Real-Time Garmin Connect IQ App [AKCrafty] [ In reply to ]
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But more importantly, what does Dr. Andy Coggan think about this?
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Re: Xert Real-Time Garmin Connect IQ App [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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I use their workouts during the winter, but have been outdoors and semi-structured since the spring. I usually have an idea of what duration I want to target beforehand (usually 1x short Vo2 efforts, 1x sweet spot, and 1x long/cornucopia workout per week), and choose from there.

The workout suggestions I have mixed experience with. I don't totally understand how it works. It looks like it should base workouts around your A race, but I don't even know if it knows what kind of race it is.

So yes, there aren't a lot of different workouts if you specifically only want to target sprint TT durations, and if it keeps suggesting those, then I'm not sure how to interpret that. How long ago were you using it? The app is constantly being updated and having new features added, so this may have been changed.

There are a whole bunch of new workouts that behave differently than other time-based workouts. The smart workouts have variable interval durations, depending on how you're responding to the workout (and how well you're performing it). I found that the time-crunched sweet spot workouts were amazing for generating high amounts of training stress.

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George Dedopoulos | @geodee | geodee.com | Team Atomica | Toronto Triathlon Club
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Re: Xert Real-Time Garmin Connect IQ App [geodee] [ In reply to ]
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geodee wrote:
Quickest/easiest way to do it is with a 2-minute balls-out effort. As long as you're completely spent at the end of it, you've got a decent estimate. If you only pushed 90% of the way, then try again as soon as you want—it will pick up where you left off.

I saw this on the DCR site as well and just doesn't make sense to me. I can do 542W for 2min but I am more a sprinter/pursuiter type (as confirmed by blood lactate test) and I am pretty sure that in my case a 2min test would vastly overstate my FTP.

Put another way, I know climber/TT types that I ride with that can't do near what I can do for 2min but have a much higher FTP than I do.

Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099
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Re: Xert Real-Time Garmin Connect IQ App [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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I get what you're saying. If you were using a linear model (I.e. If your 20-min value is 105% of your 60 minute value, then maybe your 2-minute value is 200% of your 60-min), then you're right. That would be a horrible way to guesstimate FTP, and most likely completely wrong for most people.

The Xert model also takes into account your absolute Peak Power (1-second value), and your High Intensity Energy (W'). The HIE is basically expressing how deep your anaerorobic reserves are. So since you have a high HIE, the app should take that into account when it calculates your FTP and subtract the HIE from your 2-minute effort.

I totally get how it can work in the full app with your full history of workouts, but I'm actually surprised at how accurate the Garmin app is at pulling this info from such limited data.

It is one of those things where the more data it has, the more accurate it will be though.

_____________________________________________________
George Dedopoulos | @geodee | geodee.com | Team Atomica | Toronto Triathlon Club
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Re: Xert Real-Time Garmin Connect IQ App [refthimos] [ In reply to ]
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refthimos wrote:
geodee wrote:
Quickest/easiest way to do it is with a 2-minute balls-out effort. As long as you're completely spent at the end of it, you've got a decent estimate. If you only pushed 90% of the way, then try again as soon as you want—it will pick up where you left off.


I saw this on the DCR site as well and just doesn't make sense to me. I can do 542W for 2min but I am more a sprinter/pursuiter type (as confirmed by blood lactate test) and I am pretty sure that in my case a 2min test would vastly overstate my FTP.

Put another way, I know climber/TT types that I ride with that can't do near what I can do for 2min but have a much higher FTP than I do.
I'm in the same boat as you. It's a free app though, I might install it and try just to see what it gives me.
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Re: Xert Real-Time Garmin Connect IQ App [geodee] [ In reply to ]
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I used it last spring/summer until the free trial ran out.

I liked the way it classified the rides and told me where I was strongest and weakest, but at that time there was no (or I couldn't find) suggestions as to what I should be doing to help me progress. My questions went unanswered in the google group so I just deleted them (cuz I thought it was a taboo or something) and left the platform.

When the free trial ran out and I would have had to pay, I didn't want to pay for another training log.
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Re: Xert Real-Time Garmin Connect IQ App [Anachronism] [ In reply to ]
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Anachronism wrote:
refthimos wrote:
geodee wrote:
Quickest/easiest way to do it is with a 2-minute balls-out effort. As long as you're completely spent at the end of it, you've got a decent estimate. If you only pushed 90% of the way, then try again as soon as you want—it will pick up where you left off.


I saw this on the DCR site as well and just doesn't make sense to me. I can do 542W for 2min but I am more a sprinter/pursuiter type (as confirmed by blood lactate test) and I am pretty sure that in my case a 2min test would vastly overstate my FTP.

Put another way, I know climber/TT types that I ride with that can't do near what I can do for 2min but have a much higher FTP than I do.

I'm in the same boat as you. It's a free app though, I might install it and try just to see what it gives me.

If you're more of the fast-twitch type, before you do an exhaustive effort, do a maximal power (peak power) effort. This helps the algorithm estimate the high intensity energy/capacity contribution to your efforts.

The algorithm doesn't look at any average power numbers. It looks at how your power declines with fatigue to obtain your FTP.

Hope this helps.

Armando Mastracci, Founder of Xert, an advanced data analytics and training platform. Blog, Podcasts
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Re: Xert Real-Time Garmin Connect IQ App [baronbiosys] [ In reply to ]
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baronbiosys wrote:
The algorithm doesn't look at any average power numbers. It looks at how your power declines with fatigue to obtain your FTP.

Hope this helps.

Could you explain this a bit more (without giving away too many secrets)? Are you saying that the algorithm looks at how maximal efforts change over the course of the workout (i.e., what's the delta between my 2 min maximal power at 10 minutes into a workout vs 2 min maximal power 60 minutes into a workout)? Or is more similar to what WKO/Golden cheetah do where is compares 1 sec maximum power to 2 minute maximum power to 10 minute maximum power and then does some form of curve fit to identify what FTP is?
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Re: Xert Real-Time Garmin Connect IQ App [mgreer] [ In reply to ]
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mgreer wrote:
baronbiosys wrote:
The algorithm doesn't look at any average power numbers. It looks at how your power declines with fatigue to obtain your FTP.

Hope this helps.


Could you explain this a bit more (without giving away too many secrets)? Are you saying that the algorithm looks at how maximal efforts change over the course of the workout (i.e., what's the delta between my 2 min maximal power at 10 minutes into a workout vs 2 min maximal power 60 minutes into a workout)? Or is more similar to what WKO/Golden cheetah do where is compares 1 sec maximum power to 2 minute maximum power to 10 minute maximum power and then does some form of curve fit to identify what FTP is?

It never looks at 2 minute or X minute maximal power. It uses an algorithm that determines Maximal Power Available (MPA) second by second and reverse engineers your FTP from points when your power exceeds your presumed MPA based on the displayed FTP. Eventually it reaches an FTP where the MPA calculated is always above your power output.

Have a read through our blogs to get a better sense of what MPA is all about. It's a very powerful (excuse the pun) concept. :-)

Armando Mastracci, Founder of Xert, an advanced data analytics and training platform. Blog, Podcasts
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Re: Xert Real-Time Garmin Connect IQ App [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
But more importantly, what does Dr. Andy Coggan think about this?

Can't tell if this was supposed to be pink or not.
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Re: Xert Real-Time Garmin Connect IQ App [geodee] [ In reply to ]
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geodee wrote:
Ah, I get what you're saying. If it all works as it's designed, during a 20 or 60 minute steady state test, the calculated FTP should slowly increase to your actual FTP by the time you hit the wall. It very well could be a good motivator! Totally worth trying out! I'd be curious to hear how it works for you.

Seriously thinking about trying this out...
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Re: Xert Real-Time Garmin Connect IQ App [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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It looks as if your implied question is being ignored here as well.
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Re: Xert Real-Time Garmin Connect IQ App [Plissken74] [ In reply to ]
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Just uploaded my last year of Strava stuff as well. Haven't done an FTP test in a while though... My last 20 min test in January 2016 and averaged 317W. I feel a bit stronger these days, recently put a 9 min "to failure" effort at 350W. Xert estimates my FTP at 334W. I don't know what to say... I find it a little too optimistic.



Plissken74 wrote:
today i went into xertonline for the first time
i synced last 2 years of Strava
I was training these days with my assumption of 260W FTP. It gave me 264W
I am impressed
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Re: Xert Real-Time Garmin Connect IQ App [baronbiosys] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Armando,

This thread got me to try out XERT - pretty cool. One question on the smart trainer workouts: does it have a function like Trainerroad does to use an external power meter to control the resistance on your smart trainer? I think I spied the ability to plug in an offset value, which is ok but not quite as desirable, since my Kickr's offset from my Quarq varies depending on how much wattage, temperature changes, etc.

Another question: does your system take climbing into account when performing its analysis? As I was importing rides from Strava, I noticed dramatic up and down movements in the estimated FTP, with the upswings driven by rides in hilly terrain and actual hill repeats and the downswings driven by trainer workouts. While I enjoy seeing higher numbers, I question their applicability to a flattish Ironman course.

Regardless, cool system you've come up with!

Ian
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Re: Xert Real-Time Garmin Connect IQ App [sneeuwaap] [ In reply to ]
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sneeuwaap wrote:
Hi Armando,

This thread got me to try out XERT - pretty cool. One question on the smart trainer workouts: does it have a function like Trainerroad does to use an external power meter to control the resistance on your smart trainer? I think I spied the ability to plug in an offset value, which is ok but not quite as desirable, since my Kickr's offset from my Quarq varies depending on how much wattage, temperature changes, etc.

Another question: does your system take climbing into account when performing its analysis? As I was importing rides from Strava, I noticed dramatic up and down movements in the estimated FTP, with the upswings driven by rides in hilly terrain and actual hill repeats and the downswings driven by trainer workouts. While I enjoy seeing higher numbers, I question their applicability to a flattish Ironman course.

Regardless, cool system you've come up with!

Ian

Thanks Ian!

Both Xert Mobile and the Xert CIQ Player perform Powermatch. In fact they maintain slope and offset between the two, updated in real-time .. cool? ;-)

At the moment, we only look at power data so unfortunately we don't recognize a difference between a climb and a trainer ride. You can of course analyse them for differences which is quite a useful exercise. We do have users that mix and assign different fitness signatures for different types of activities they perform. We have some ideas on how to better manage this that we are looking to implement in future releases.

Armando Mastracci, Founder of Xert, an advanced data analytics and training platform. Blog, Podcasts
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Re: Xert Real-Time Garmin Connect IQ App [baronbiosys] [ In reply to ]
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I'm biased as I ride with Armando, but I uploaded my Strava data into XERT and got a 318w FTP, when I've always used 315w through testing and educated guessing as my number. I'm a fan.

As i've mentioned to Armando, it will be sweet once running and swimming are factored in for predicted tiredness scores, but this is another fun tool to work with.

Ken


"the trick is to keep losing weight until your friends and family ask you if you've been sick. then you know you're within 10 pounds. if they start whispering to each other, wondering if you've got cancer or aids, you're within 5. when they actually do an intervention, you're at race weight." - Slowman
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Re: Xert Real-Time Garmin Connect IQ App [baronbiosys] [ In reply to ]
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From what I've read, every time you hit lap in the watch it will reset the FTP estimation value, correct?

Is there a way to disable that option? If I hit lap for each of my intervals, then FTP value would be resetting a lot, and that might impact the FTP estimation during a ride?
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Re: Xert Real-Time Garmin Connect IQ App [pabloarc] [ In reply to ]
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pabloarc wrote:
From what I've read, every time you hit lap in the watch it will reset the FTP estimation value, correct?
Is there a way to disable that option? If I hit lap for each of my intervals, then FTP value would be resetting a lot, and that might impact the FTP estimation during a ride?

There are app settings that allow you to enable/disable reset on lap and to show FTP in W or W/kg. Using GE or GCM to configure these.

Armando Mastracci, Founder of Xert, an advanced data analytics and training platform. Blog, Podcasts
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