Winter Training (another Trainer/PM Question - sorry)

Sep 22, 14 20:44

Post #1 of 20 (2475 views)

Hello,

Just finished my second year triathloning and have a pretty decent idea on what I need to improve on (I'll ask questions relating to that in another thread in a later date, once I deal with a marathon issue I have coming up).

Anyhow, what I need is nothing spectacularly unique; cycling kms during the winter.

I'm looking for a trainer/computer/power meter combo that makes sense and won't cause me to lose half of my house in the divorce.

I know about Trainnerroad but I have to admit I'm a little confused about it as I'm a dummy.

-Minor Q - does trainerroad send you a USB stick or something to pick up the Ant+ signals the power meter, cadence sensor, etc is sending out?

-I read the website, but does it essentially give you target wattage numbers to hit based on your FTP and you hit them? Obviously there are different workouts but the gist is that it's data based?

So for this one: Stages PM, Kinetic (or something, I've just heard good things), Trainnerroad. This would more or less fit my budget.

The other option is the more fancy computer/Virtual Reality based trainer like Tacx or Computrainer.

I tried Computrainer and it's badass but it would also require a separate PM for races. That's pretty steep.

I haven't tried Tacx but there iVortex seems reasonably priced and you can reasonably cheaply upgrade the software but I've never used it and don't really know anyone who has. This is a more expensive version than the top one but less than Computrainer.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.

Last edited by: drm437: Sep 22, 14 20:46

Re: Winter Training (another Trainer/PM Question - sorry) [drm437] [ In reply to ]

Sep 23, 14 6:29

Post #2 of 20 (2366 views)

No you go to Amazon and buy your own ANT stick.
If you are gonna go the power route buy one you can use inside and out.
Yes trainer road will give precise wattage targets based on FTP.
There are many options for power meters out there. Stages is but one.
Kurt Kinetic is a great trainer. Cycleops makes some good ones as well.

Re: Winter Training (another Trainer/PM Question - sorry) [tucktri] [ In reply to ]

Sep 23, 14 6:43

Post #3 of 20 (2346 views)

Ah thanks, I'm not super concerned about the ant+ part, I was just curious.

This seems to be the option I'm leaning towards. I'm fine with how trainer road works, I just want to know what to expect.

I'll do further research on power meters. I'm not married to anything.

Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.

Re: Winter Training (another Trainer/PM Question - sorry) [drm437] [ In reply to ]

Sep 23, 14 6:45

Post #4 of 20 (2340 views)

to use trainer road:

What you need:
- ANT+ stick (amazon, ebay or ST classified)
- Speed and cadence sensor (amazon, ebay or ST classified)
- Computer
- Your Bike
- a good trainer (you will hate indoor cycling with a cheap one).

How to use it:
- Put the ant+ stick in your computer (pc or mac)
- download the trainer road software and install it
- run the trainer road software and go to devices. Pair your speed and cadence and HR (if you have one)
- select type of trainer you have

try a "free" workout first to make sure everything is working. It should display power and cadence and HR if everything is paired correctly.

Now do an FTP test. try the 8-min one or 20-min one. both will give you an idea where your FTP is. Main thing since you don't have a power meter, is to make sure everything is the same as far as bike setup and tire pressure. Otherwise, your virtual power will vary from ride to ride.

SmartBikeTrainers.com || YouTube || My Twitter

Re: Winter Training (another Trainer/PM Question - sorry) [Tri Nut] [ In reply to ]

Sep 23, 14 6:56

Post #5 of 20 (2325 views)

I'll add, for trainer road virtual power, I had a better connection with USB extension to place the ANT+ stick close.

When I started wtih crank based power my FTP was 40-60 watts less than what trainer road reported. I used kurt kinetic road machine. It's consistent so for training it's fine, my point is be careful when making calculations based off of virtual power.

Last edited by: Noof: Sep 23, 14 7:00

Re: Winter Training (another Trainer/PM Question - sorry) [Tri Nut] [ In reply to ]

Sep 23, 14 6:57

Post #6 of 20 (2323 views)

Ah, great. That all makes sense. I went and watched a YouTube video and it seems right my alley. I'm a numbers guy.

Do you have a favorite trainer?

Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.

Re: Winter Training (another Trainer/PM Question - sorry) [Noof] [ In reply to ]

Sep 23, 14 7:07

Post #7 of 20 (2308 views)

Noof wrote:

I'll add, for trainer road virtual power, I had a better connection with USB extension to place the ANT+ stick close.

When I started wtih crank based power my FTP was 40-60 watts less than what trainer road reported. I used kurt kinetic road machine. It's consistent so for training it's fine, my point is be careful when making calculations based off of virtual power.

yeah, I was really disappointed when I got a real power meter. My actual power was way lower than the virtual power trainer road had me at.

but only for training purposes, the vp is just as good.

SmartBikeTrainers.com || YouTube || My Twitter

Re: Winter Training (another Trainer/PM Question - sorry) [drm437] [ In reply to ]

Sep 23, 14 7:07

Post #8 of 20 (2308 views)

kurt kinetic road machine seems to get a lot of love. I love/hate mine

Re: Winter Training (another Trainer/PM Question - sorry) [drm437] [ In reply to ]

Sep 23, 14 7:21

Post #9 of 20 (2285 views)

I dont think I've ever called something bombproof... if I were to say it, I would consider using it when speaking of kurt kinetic products. They are built very well! I like the warrenty they come with as well.

To answer your question, fluid trainers below 500$, I prefer kurt kinetic.

If you want to spend more, I would invest into something with erg mode & direct mounting to your bikes drive train.

If I could give any advice with the purchase of a trainer it would be; you get what you pay for with a bike trainer.

Re: Winter Training (another Trainer/PM Question - sorry) [Tri Nut] [ In reply to ]

Sep 23, 14 7:29

Post #10 of 20 (2273 views)

Tri Nut wrote:

Noof wrote:

I'll add, for trainer road virtual power, I had a better connection with USB extension to place the ANT+ stick close.

When I started wtih crank based power my FTP was 40-60 watts less than what trainer road reported. I used kurt kinetic road machine. It's consistent so for training it's fine, my point is be careful when making calculations based off of virtual power.

yeah, I was really disappointed when I got a real power meter. My actual power was way lower than the virtual power trainer road had me at.

but only for training purposes, the vp is just as good.

The plan was always to buy a PM and use that with TRoad and races for consistency sake. I'm under the impression that most PMs are ant+ if not all. Need it for my garmin anyhow.

Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.

Re: Winter Training (another Trainer/PM Question - sorry) [Tri Nut] [ In reply to ]

Sep 23, 14 7:34

Post #11 of 20 (2262 views)

Tri Nut wrote:

Noof wrote:

I'll add, for trainer road virtual power, I had a better connection with USB extension to place the ANT+ stick close.

When I started wtih crank based power my FTP was 40-60 watts less than what trainer road reported. I used kurt kinetic road machine. It's consistent so for training it's fine, my point is be careful when making calculations based off of virtual power.

yeah, I was really disappointed when I got a real power meter. My actual power was way lower than the virtual power trainer road had me at.

but only for training purposes, the vp is just as good.

i have had a stages for about a month, and have used trainerroad for around 2 years. Im trying to do LT sets with my stages power to match TR watts and im absolutely burying myself to even do 3x10mins at LT. I look over my old files from last season, and according to virtual power, i could do sets of 3x30mins tempo (80%) with 10mins LT on top of each set.
Now either i have lost a tonne of fitness despite not having an offseason, or virtual power is 'nicer' to me.
Interestingly though, outside i feel as though my trainerroad FTP matches the stages. Just not inside on a trainer.

Re: Winter Training (another Trainer/PM Question - sorry) [drm437] [ In reply to ]

Sep 23, 14 8:10

Post #12 of 20 (2224 views)

Does the little ant+ thingy that comes with a 910 work for trainer road, or do you need a second device?

Re: Winter Training (another Trainer/PM Question - sorry) [TunaBoo] [ In reply to ]

Sep 23, 14 8:27

Post #13 of 20 (2211 views)

The ant+ stick which comes with nearly all garmin fitness products will work. You do not need to purchase an extra.

Re: Winter Training (another Trainer/PM Question - sorry) [Noof] [ In reply to ]

Sep 23, 14 8:34

Post #14 of 20 (2198 views)

Noof wrote:

The ant+ stick which comes with nearly all garmin fitness products will work. You do not need to purchase an extra.

You just exit the garmin ant agent software then. Cool

Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.

Last edited by: drm437: Sep 23, 14 8:35

Re: Winter Training (another Trainer/PM Question - sorry) [coates_hbk] [ In reply to ]

Sep 23, 14 8:44

Post #15 of 20 (2181 views)

Have you considered your ability to perform the FTP test ?

Re: Winter Training (another Trainer/PM Question - sorry) [drm437] [ In reply to ]

Sep 23, 14 9:09

Post #16 of 20 (2158 views)

IMO, go Kurt Kinetic and Powertap rear wheel (best price/accuracy option at the moment) or go virtual power until some of the newer power meters come out later this year.

Re: Winter Training (another Trainer/PM Question - sorry) [coates_hbk] [ In reply to ]

Sep 23, 14 9:21

Post #17 of 20 (2141 views)

coates_hbk wrote:

Tri Nut wrote:

Noof wrote:

I'll add, for trainer road virtual power, I had a better connection with USB extension to place the ANT+ stick close.

When I started wtih crank based power my FTP was 40-60 watts less than what trainer road reported. I used kurt kinetic road machine. It's consistent so for training it's fine, my point is be careful when making calculations based off of virtual power.

yeah, I was really disappointed when I got a real power meter. My actual power was way lower than the virtual power trainer road had me at.

but only for training purposes, the vp is just as good.

i have had a stages for about a month, and have used trainerroad for around 2 years. Im trying to do LT sets with my stages power to match TR watts and im absolutely burying myself to even do 3x10mins at LT. I look over my old files from last season, and according to virtual power, i could do sets of 3x30mins tempo (80%) with 10mins LT on top of each set.
Now either i have lost a tonne of fitness despite not having an offseason, or virtual power is 'nicer' to me.
Interestingly though, outside i feel as though my trainerroad FTP matches the stages. Just not inside on a trainer.

I know FTP is supposed to be FTP, but my FTP had always tested higher outside than inside. No idea if it's a mental thing or something about being on trainer hinders performance but it's always been this way for me (I do get a hell of a lot hitter faster on trainer is that once warmed up for test I'm already pretty warm and sweating compared to outside).

So I train with 2 FTP: one inside one outside. Seems to keep me from blowing up inside and from selling myself short outside.

Re: Winter Training (another Trainer/PM Question - sorry) [drm437] [ In reply to ]

Sep 23, 14 9:59

Post #18 of 20 (2103 views)

Hey you may want to check out some of the videos on triathlon research.
http://goo.gl/fIEYCV

Re: Winter Training (another Trainer/PM Question - sorry) [blueapplepaste] [ In reply to ]

Sep 23, 14 10:07

Post #19 of 20 (2095 views)

I would be interested in seeing a comparison of your VI for FTP tests inside and out. Did you power spike a bunch outside giving you a higher avg?

Watts are Watts.. .but perceived effort is a whole other ball game. And as I said earlier, your ability to perform the test can change drastically, without much or any change in fitness.

Re: Winter Training (another Trainer/PM Question - sorry) [blueapplepaste] [ In reply to ]

Sep 23, 14 21:08

Post #20 of 20 (1999 views)

blueapplepaste wrote:

coates_hbk wrote:

Tri Nut wrote:

Noof wrote:

I'll add, for trainer road virtual power, I had a better connection with USB extension to place the ANT+ stick close.

When I started wtih crank based power my FTP was 40-60 watts less than what trainer road reported. I used kurt kinetic road machine. It's consistent so for training it's fine, my point is be careful when making calculations based off of virtual power.

yeah, I was really disappointed when I got a real power meter. My actual power was way lower than the virtual power trainer road had me at.

but only for training purposes, the vp is just as good.

i have had a stages for about a month, and have used trainerroad for around 2 years. Im trying to do LT sets with my stages power to match TR watts and im absolutely burying myself to even do 3x10mins at LT. I look over my old files from last season, and according to virtual power, i could do sets of 3x30mins tempo (80%) with 10mins LT on top of each set.
Now either i have lost a tonne of fitness despite not having an offseason, or virtual power is 'nicer' to me.
Interestingly though, outside i feel as though my trainerroad FTP matches the stages. Just not inside on a trainer.

I know FTP is supposed to be FTP, but my FTP had always tested higher outside than inside. No idea if it's a mental thing or something about being on trainer hinders performance but it's always been this way for me (I do get a hell of a lot hitter faster on trainer is that once warmed up for test I'm already pretty warm and sweating compared to outside).

So I train with 2 FTP: one inside one outside. Seems to keep me from blowing up inside and from selling myself short outside.

just did a quick unscientific test. Seems with trainerroad, i hold 'x' gear for 92rpm to get 175 watts with virtual power. Stages requires 97 rpm on the same gear for identical watts.
After no time off during seasons on the bike, i refuse to believe i cant do harder sets (for me) where virtual power states i can do something like 3x(30mins tempo, 10mins LT), yet using a stages im burying myself to do a simple 3x10 LT set on the trainer. Outside, the stages power matches up a bit better to my virtual power threshold better, but definitely not on the trainer.

The solution, ofcourse, is to do another test using the stages and use that 100% of the time. I hate those tests. I go to dark places :(

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