LOL, coaches are taking our money not because they sell us some kind of secret information. We give our money to the coaches because they basically babysit our performance. There is nothing a coach can tell you now that will improve your performance, that you don't already know - regular training, proper nutrition, controlled stress, recovery, yadda yadda yadda. The value may start to crystallize after bunch of tests, bunch of sessions, after the coach knows your strengths, weaknesses and all that jazz. You can get away without a coach too. Thomas Gerlach is self coached, I think. All you've got to do is to be extremely knowledgeable, extremely experienced and extremely disciplined. I am neither of these, therefore I've got a coach.

Do you go to a doctor or lawyer and say "just share enough" - for free - about how to heal this ailment or how to defend this lawsuit?

Know any doctors or lawyers who wouldn't give free advice to friends when asked. I'm a pediatrician. I get asked all the time. I do my best to help.

What are you asking about?

Are you asking about - can you win an IM on 12 MPW of running?

or are you asking generally about the value of having a coach?

I'm confused.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

If you listen to any of the interviews JR had given leading up to Lanzarote, you would know that he never did any single run over 12 miles. However, on days when he I'd those 12 mile runs, he also did other runs on those days. He would do an 8 mile easy run in the AM and then do 12 miles in the afternoon that were more structured. So he would run 20 miles that day.

He has been on plenty of podcasts lately describing his training....Saying he never ran more than 12 miles in training is misleading.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

You should probably set the context of your question - that you are wondering how Jesse Thomas won IM Lanzarote without running more than a 12 mile long run.

How it's done is pretty simple. Due to Jesse's injury they could not have him doing long runs. But he still needed to get the training load, so they did multiple double run days in order to reduce the running stress caused by a single run. That way, you still get sufficient weekly mileage, but you break up the stress because you are not doing a single long run. So this is not something that would necessarily help time-crunched age groupers, since they still have to find the time. But it would help time-crunched age groupers who don't have a single 2 hour gap in their week to do a long run.

So, hopefully that answers your question about how it is done, but I don't think any age groupers have the problem of not having the time to do a long run. For most, the time-related problem is about how to fit enough biking in. Pretty much everyone has enough time to do sufficient run training for an IM. Many do not have the time to do enough biking.

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Are you ready to do an Ultraman? | How I calculate Ironman race fueling | Strength Training for Athletes |

Neither

I'm asking about the training theories which manifest in an individual doing their best on an ironman marathon with never doing more that a 12 mile training run. So I can integrate those concepts into my own training.

Thank you. That was very useful. Makes sense and you're right, not going to help me very much. I'll try and find the podcasts you mentioned.

this is how i train. the only time i run more than 12 miles is either when i do half marathons with friends as a support runner, or do a HIM to test my fitness.

my long runs are 95 minutes on sundays. they are preceeded by either 45 mins intervals on the bike, or 65 mins interval session..

just run 2-3 miles off of every ride and you can minimize your long runs.

Others have filled in more context here. So it sounds like we are talking about Jesse Thomas and his win at IMLanza.

- Athletes at this level train VERY differently than most AG athletes. (Although AG'ers if you actually and really want to be better and go faster should pay close attention to the generalities and some of the specifics of training/racing at this level)

- For one thing they have been running for YEARS. Many AG athletes look WAY too short term. What is of most value and most importance, is the cumulative impact of years and years and years . . . of putting the miles in. So, yes, his max long run was 12 miles, but you do know that Jesse has been a great runner since his high school days, and doing this for probably 15+ years! Most AGers, think they have been running for a "long" time after 3 years. Tip: You are just getting started!

- Most AG endurance athletes are one-gear athletes, they train, and race within a narrow band of effort and NEVER break out of that. Bizarrely, this is often "coach" imposed. The best endurance sports athletes train and race over a wide range of intensities and distances.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I hear what you're saying. It's apples and oranges. But they are both fruits. Not that this has to be about me, but I swam through college. Div 3 all American. Did the Bud Light oly's in the northeast back in college. I ran a marathon every year through Med school, residency and fellowship just to make sure that things didn't fall apart too much. Started up again doing tris about 5 years ago when work and the age of my children provided a little more time and flexibility. Last summer, in a 2 month period, I did a sprint, oly, 70.3 and IM (which was all I did last season, hard to get weekends off in the summer). And even have thrown Crossfit it there during the winter (which is an intensity few triathlete ever reach, highly recommended as an off season tool). So there we have intensity, duration, variation.

But what it sounds like from other posters, which is interesting and useful, is that IF you have some of the other boxes checked, you can be successful/FOP/podium doing things a bit different. Breaking up a long run into two shorter runs that fit in around schedules. That could be a real game changer for some.

Sorry - apples and oranges a bit... you're not really friends with people here (hate to burst that bubble). Kudos on your profession - that's awesome - and that you like to help your friends. I have a ton of friends who are doctors and lawyers...but I don't go to them for free professional services. Just like I wouldn't expect them to ask me for free professional services from me, nor would they.

I don't even know what you're asking for - how to get fast on a limited schedule?

Train hard, race hard. Suck it up. Do it for a long time. There are no shortcuts.

Best of luck to you.

What happens with many people new to triathlon and not from any specific sports back-ground, they go out and either find a training program on their own or have a coach give it to them and it's all nice and balanced with 2 - 3 workouts per sport per week. All good.

They progress for a while but they typically find that they will plateau out on performance in each of the three sports fairly quickly - main reason, not enough repetitive training in that sport and a deep base.

Running is a perfect one to break the mold with, and you occasionally see threads on here about it. Works best with newer runners! Take a month, or better yet 2 months. Assuming no injuries or issues, make it a goal to run at least 5 - 6 or even 7 days a week for that time. You don't have to run a lot in each session. Minimum say 20 minutes . Max 45 - 60 min. But just keep at it. It's not sexy. It's not complicated - it's just running everyday. After 2 months take a really easy week. And then run a 5k - most people blow their 5K race PB up, big time! This is how you get faster, at the start!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I understand. Thanks.

Ok. I'm sure your friends would be happy to give advice or lend a hand if you asked. Best of luck to you as well.

I don't really feel that it's a matter of giving away free advice. These forums are places people go to exchange information, tips and experiences about common interests. I'd be amazed if anyone reading hasn't done any search on youtube or another forum for information on a DIY or go to the local hardware store for some basic information on how to fix a problem they are not quite clear on.

Any good business man knows that a little free information on the front end will yield potential benefits in sales later. Even the corner drug dealer knows that. So, a coach giving a little information on a forum is good marketing.

If you don't ask, you'll never know. just my $0.02

With all that, I agree with the rest of the advice already given. Consistent training, balanced nutrition, and time for family will yield good results. Might not win your AG but at least you'll have a great day of racing.

Start by asking "Why did Jesse and Matt Dixon train this way?" They had a very specific reason; his foot injuries/surguries. He's susceptible to further injury by running long. I don't know the exact details, but I'd bet his weekly run mileage would be the same if his long run days weren't broken up.

Will this work for you? Maybe yes, maybe no. Just don't treat it as a shortcut. Make it part of the plan and plan to keep your weekly volume at a level that prepares you for IM and find the right way to split those long runs (definitely not 50/50!)

Rob, can you share what you consider to be sufficient time on the bike training for an IM?

I tried the "no super long run" plan a few years ago (2013) and while it was nice from a training perspective I really felt unprepared on race day once I got past about mile 10. Seemed like I came apart much sooner than usual (18-20) for me. Although I had no runs over 13, each week I'd have a day where my total run volume ranged from 18-22 by doing doubles and even one triple.

I'd say that to do well, there should at least be a few blocks of training where the athlete is biking 10-15 hours per week, and "regular" weeks a bit less than that. You could of course get by on a lot less than that. But in relation to this question, a long run of 2.5 hours is probably the max that is needed as far as running goes. But even a 3 hour ride is not really a long ride for IM training. So at the time of your IM build when you're doing 2.5 hour long runs, the rides would be 4-5+ hours. I guess the main point is that the time required for equivalent bike training during peak weeks far outweighs the time required for running.

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Are you ready to do an Ultraman? | How I calculate Ironman race fueling | Strength Training for Athletes |

Run 12 mi/day, 6 days/wk, and you'll have 72 mi/wk. You should have a good run on that base:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

One day 5 miles + 12 miles. 2 other days 3-4 miles, 3 days 3 miles plus 7 miles. 7th day zero. Total 55 miles per week. This is beyond plenty for most age groupers. Never need to run more than 12 miles at once. Leaves some energy for swim volume (5-7 hours) and light biking. Following week, cut back on swim volume and do 2-3 hours and run volume (3 hours) and go on the Rob Gray/Thomas Hellriegel approved bike plan.

Let me help you. There is no such a thing. There are no shortcuts. And you are in the wrong sport asking that question. Further, your original post has no context of what you are asking. Racing and further winning an IM takes work.

Wow

To everyone else who took the time to give advice and provide constructive feedback, thank you.