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Why is my paddle like swim faster than my high elbow stroke?
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I'm a slow swimmer, and a relatively new one. I started Triathlon 2 years ago, have moderate local success and pretty much MOP at larger tris/events. What's keeping me MOP is the swim - my cycling is decent and my running improves every year. I don't have a coach, but try and apply the principles I read about from Total Immersion as well as Swim Smooth. So when it comes to my stroke, I used 2013 to begin adapting from the old fashioned deep pull to a high elbow catch. Doing so I went from a 2:00+ min/100 m to somewhere between 1:50 and 2:00 min/100m. Note that I used to be a bodybuilder, so I have developed a somewhat large chest, even if the muscles have long since atrophied.

Now, in most races I tend to break down at some point in the race and find bad habits coming back. But the basics approach I try to maintain is the high elbow catch. In 2013, in most races, I felt I underperformed. Most races...because in one race last June I over performed. In that Oly race I was fatigued from a recent HIM (my first) and tended to dog paddles stroke - not quite like a dog paddle as there's definitely a stroke, but there's definitely more pushing down and less pulling. And yet, I was seriously faster than I'd been to that point. Later I experimented in the pool and repeated the results. However, I stubbornly stuck to the high elbow catch and continued my MOP swimming results for 2013, always finding myself trying to pull in the front group on the bike and run.

Back in serious training for 2014, I've been toying with stroke. I'm back to that paddle like stroke for a few sessions, and I'm addicted to it because its just faster. Basically I reach out, come into the water, and pull my arm backward, getting it out of the water as quickly as possible [Edit: Its also a very shallow stroke]. It requires relatively little effort, and their's significant downward pressure vs pull as compared to the correct stroke form. Its definitely a faster stroke. I combine that with a very narrow frontal area by making arm contact with the water as close to the center line as possible, but not crossing. I believe that my body form is good (ankles can feel air - not sinking), and I'm kicking about 2x to 3x the stroke rate. Compared to my 1:50 to 2:00 high elbow catch performance, I can easily hit 1:30's over 500 meters and average 1:40's over longer distances. Maximum speed over short (200 m) spurts is about 1:15 compared to 1:25 with high elbow catch. There is tremendously less splashing, not that it matters...

I'm puzzled because I feel it should not be faster. My current thought is this. I'm an MOP swimmer, so maybe a few little things going on here override the fact that I'm not using high elbow catch. For instance, I can manage a faster stroke rate, so even though there's less pull (or I feel like there's less), the stroke rate makes up for it. My high elbow catch may be off, too. I've not had it analyzed. And then, there's the fact that I feel this stroke gets my higher out of the water, so less drag.

If anyone has experienced something similar, let me know.
Last edited by: FranzZemen: Jan 23, 14 9:08
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Re: Why is my paddle like swim faster than my high elbow stroke? [FranzZemen] [ In reply to ]
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putting up a video of your stroke will answer many questions and then pose some new ones.

jaretj
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Re: Why is my paddle like swim faster than my high elbow stroke? [FranzZemen] [ In reply to ]
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If I had this 'problem' I wouldn't spend too long trying to figure it out! The clock is giving you the answer.
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Re: Why is my paddle like swim faster than my high elbow stroke? [FranzZemen] [ In reply to ]
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You are probably lacking the sport specific strength to do it properly.

___________________________________________
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Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
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Re: Why is my paddle like swim faster than my high elbow stroke? [FranzZemen] [ In reply to ]
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Without having seen you…

This is it: "For instance, I can manage a faster stroke rate, so even though there's less pull (or I feel like there's less), the stroke rate makes up for it".

People like you and I who came late to swimming aren't going to be able to go fast with a long stroke: we likely don't have the excellent streamlining and strong connected kick that Real Fish (™) developed over millions of yards and mean coaches. I make up for it by using a strong aerobic engine to take lots of less-powerful strokes. That, and not using the S-stroke that all those old fishes still use :-)


You should now work on making your high-turnover technique as effective as possible: pulling straight back, getting to the catch point quickly and efficiently, keeping your legs high, etc.


The clock is the ultimate arbiter of "what works."

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Why is my paddle like swim faster than my high elbow stroke? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
Without having seen you…

This is it: "For instance, I can manage a faster stroke rate, so even though there's less pull (or I feel like there's less), the stroke rate makes up for it".

People like you and I who came late to swimming aren't going to be able to go fast with a long stroke: we likely don't have the excellent streamlining and strong connected kick that Real Fish (™) developed over millions of yards and mean coaches. I make up for it by using a strong aerobic engine to take lots of less-powerful strokes. That, and not using the S-stroke that all those old fishes still use :-)


You should now work on making your high-turnover technique as effective as possible: pulling straight back, getting to the catch point quickly and efficiently, keeping your legs high, etc.


The clock is the ultimate arbiter of "what works."

Thanks. I think I will follow this advice.
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Re: Why is my paddle like swim faster than my high elbow stroke? [FranzZemen] [ In reply to ]
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I can't follow what you are describing....

You say old stroke was deep pull but then you say you are faster with a "dog paddle" type stroke that you describe as shallow. Is the dog paddle stroke that you say is faster your old stroke or a new stroke?

A quick/high turn-over stroke that is shallow sounds good to me unless you are really dropping your elbow and truely dog paddling......less splashing sounds good too....maybe your dog paddle is better than you think.

We need video or someone needs to watch you swim.

Dave
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Re: Why is my paddle like swim faster than my high elbow stroke? [daveinmammoth] [ In reply to ]
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daveinmammoth wrote:
I can't follow what you are describing....

You say old stroke was deep pull but then you say you are faster with a "dog paddle" type stroke that you describe as shallow. Is the dog paddle stroke that you say is faster your old stroke or a new stroke?

A quick/high turn-over stroke that is shallow sounds good to me unless you are really dropping your elbow and truely dog paddling......less splashing sounds good too....maybe your dog paddle is better than you think.

We need video or someone needs to watch you swim.

Dave

I'm going to get some video. Sorry I didn't think of that before posting.
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Re: Why is my paddle like swim faster than my high elbow stroke? [FranzZemen] [ In reply to ]
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Not good enough a swimmer to give you stroke advice, but if you truly went from 1:50/100m pace for 200 to 1:15/100m pace just by changing stroke form, that's pretty crazy. Even if you're 'just' swimming 1:30/100m for distance, that's still such a big gap from your prior 1:50-2:00s that I wonder if you're timing everything correctly. I've never heard of such a big increase.
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Re: Why is my paddle like swim faster than my high elbow stroke? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
Not good enough a swimmer to give you stroke advice, but if you truly went from 1:50/100m pace for 200 to 1:15/100m pace just by changing stroke form, that's pretty crazy. Even if you're 'just' swimming 1:30/100m for distance, that's still such a big gap from your prior 1:50-2:00s that I wonder if you're timing everything correctly. I've never heard of such a big increase.

Maybe I'm not clear. The high end number (2:00) is a long distance one. I can power through 200 m using any stroke and do really well. I can't sustain that over a meaningful distance like an Oly. I am going from the 2:00 range to the 1:40 range over the long distance.
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Re: Why is my paddle like swim faster than my high elbow stroke? [FranzZemen] [ In reply to ]
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That's still a huge increase. I don't know anyone who swam 1:50s for distance without sandbagging, but could power through 200 (or even 100) at 1:15/100 pace!
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Re: Why is my paddle like swim faster than my high elbow stroke? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
That's still a huge increase. I don't know anyone who swam 1:50s for distance without sandbagging, but could power through 200 (or even 100) at 1:15/100 pace!


You just meet someone! Very anaerobic though.

Edit...I'm using a 910xt...Not sure as to the precision. Usually it's consistent but it has given single length results way off the charts. However, I've been able to swim very fast over short distances for the last 2 years. I assume everyone that had basic form can.
Last edited by: FranzZemen: Jan 23, 14 11:22
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Re: Why is my paddle like swim faster than my high elbow stroke? [FranzZemen] [ In reply to ]
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Are you getting your pace off the 910 xt that it calculates, or are you actually using true clock time (stopwatch style) over a true 200m? Could explain the inconsistency in paces that I'm perceiving.
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Re: Why is my paddle like swim faster than my high elbow stroke? [FranzZemen] [ In reply to ]
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Yes -- a video displaying the two competing strokes would be helpful. Like realAlbertan said, if you aren't strong enough you may have trouble getting aerobic during your swim. I'm thinking it would be kind of like pedaling at 70 rpm versus 90 rpm on a bike.
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Re: Why is my paddle like swim faster than my high elbow stroke? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
Are you getting your pace off the 910 xt that it calculates, or are you actually using true clock time (stopwatch style) over a true 200m? Could explain the inconsistency in paces that I'm perceiving.

This is my thought also.
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Re: Why is my paddle like swim faster than my high elbow stroke? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
Are you getting your pace off the 910 xt that it calculates, or are you actually using true clock time (stopwatch style) over a true 200m? Could explain the inconsistency in paces that I'm perceiving.


910xt time. But you know, I was sitting here thinking about it. I think over the faster times I posted are really over 100 m. At 200 m its probably 25% slower - still fast by my long swim standards though.

But there is the dilemma for me. In running, my 5k times (around 20 min) translate well to my half marathon times by the charts. My cycling performance is similar from an HR perspective (don't own a power meter). But in swimming, I feel I'm competitive at a very short distance, but can't sustain it and that points to endurance. This stroke pattern seems to require far less energy.

PS: I consistently put in a minimum of 4000 m and up to 7000 m per week. Is that too low? Now training for my first IM.
Last edited by: FranzZemen: Jan 23, 14 12:21
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Re: Why is my paddle like swim faster than my high elbow stroke? [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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chaparral wrote:
lightheir wrote:
Are you getting your pace off the 910 xt that it calculates, or are you actually using true clock time (stopwatch style) over a true 200m? Could explain the inconsistency in paces that I'm perceiving.


This is my thought also.

The first thing I tell people who swim with us is to leave the Garmin at home.

It's almost always wrong (usually on the high/fast side) I also consider learning the "clock" part of the art of swimming, I just keep saying go on red top (or blue top, the two easiest to see) and then ask them "where was the red when you came in?"

I find clock awareness one of the hardest things to teach people, ie doing an 800m all out effort, where were you at 200? 400? 600? Were you breathing clock side in and out of turns etc?

Non swimmers have a very hard time with this.

Maurice
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Re: Why is my paddle like swim faster than my high elbow stroke? [FranzZemen] [ In reply to ]
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First thing you need to do is actual testing.

100m
200m
400m

and

1000m (Threshold pace, or T-pace)

Can do them on separate days, shouldn't wear you out, and use a stopwatch - forget the instant pace or whatever on the Garmin 910xt (I have one too, but use the clock/stopwatch for an honest, noncomplicated assessment.)

That will clarify your weird pace results. I still find it awfully hard to believe that you can swim a 1:10-1:15 for 100m but were recently doing 1:50-2:00 for distance (let's say 1000m) without anything but an arm position change.
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Re: Why is my paddle like swim faster than my high elbow stroke? [FranzZemen] [ In reply to ]
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FranzZemen wrote:
lightheir wrote:
Are you getting your pace off the 910 xt that it calculates, or are you actually using true clock time (stopwatch style) over a true 200m? Could explain the inconsistency in paces that I'm perceiving.


910xt time. But you know, I was sitting here thinking about it. I think over the faster times I posted are really over 100 m. At 200 m its probably 25% slower - still fast by my long swim standards though.

But there is the dilemma for me. In running, my 5k times (around 20 min) translate well to my half marathon times by the charts. My cycling performance is similar from an HR perspective (don't own a power meter). But in swimming, I feel I'm competitive at a very short distance, but can't sustain it and that points to endurance. This stroke pattern seems to require far less energy.

PS: I consistently put in a minimum of 4000 m and up to 7000 m per week. Is that too low? Now training for my first IM.

So long as you're using the same method to time both techniques and said method is reasonably repeatable (the 910xt is IMO) AND you have a large enough sample size... go by what the clock tells you.

You need someone to video your stroke. I used to play competitive golf when I was young and there was a saying "feel is not real". Basically, people thought their swing looked like one thing and then they put it on video and it was radically different.
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Re: Why is my paddle like swim faster than my high elbow stroke? [FranzZemen] [ In reply to ]
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FranzZemen wrote:
lightheir wrote:
Are you getting your pace off the 910 xt that it calculates, or are you actually using true clock time (stopwatch style) over a true 200m? Could explain the inconsistency in paces that I'm perceiving.


910xt time. But you know, I was sitting here thinking about it. I think over the faster times I posted are really over 100 m. At 200 m its probably 25% slower - still fast by my long swim standards though.

But there is the dilemma for me. In running, my 5k times (around 20 min) translate well to my half marathon times by the charts. My cycling performance is similar from an HR perspective (don't own a power meter). But in swimming, I feel I'm competitive at a very short distance, but can't sustain it and that points to endurance. This stroke pattern seems to require far less energy.

PS: I consistently put in a minimum of 4000 m and up to 7000 m per week. Is that too low? Now training for my first IM.

Also, are you swimming in a 25 yd pool, or a 25 meter pool, or a 50 meter pool??? I don't mean to seem rude or presumptuous, but it seems that many new swimmers are not aware that there is a very significant diff between yards and meters, i.e. about 10%. Further, there is a big diff in times swum in a 25 m pool vs a 50 m pool. Unless you truly do not push off the wall at all, everyone is going to be faster in the shorter pool:)

Also, 4000-5000 yds or meters is a nice distance for one workout. Do that 4-5 times a week for best results:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Why is my paddle like swim faster than my high elbow stroke? [FranzZemen] [ In reply to ]
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FranzZemen wrote:
lightheir wrote:
Are you getting your pace off the 910 xt that it calculates, or are you actually using true clock time (stopwatch style) over a true 200m? Could explain the inconsistency in paces that I'm perceiving.


910xt time. But you know, I was sitting here thinking about it. I think over the faster times I posted are really over 100 m. At 200 m its probably 25% slower - still fast by my long swim standards though.

But there is the dilemma for me. In running, my 5k times (around 20 min) translate well to my half marathon times by the charts. My cycling performance is similar from an HR perspective (don't own a power meter). But in swimming, I feel I'm competitive at a very short distance, but can't sustain it and that points to endurance. This stroke pattern seems to require far less energy.

PS: I consistently put in a minimum of 4000 m and up to 7000 m per week. Is that too low? Now training for my first IM.

The 910 XT will give accurate results for pace if you hit lap at the start and end of any interval; it's just simple math; no fancy stroke programming. With practice, it's possible to hit lap at the start and stop without affecting your workout. After your rest, hit lap again when you start the next interval. Within an interval, however, I think the 910 pace for each length seems to have some error IMHO as it seems to not always be consistent in exactly when it detects your turn. So take length to length pace with a grain of salt. And of course, stop it for drills or kick sets.

As an intermediate-level swimmer that started at a relatively old age, I'm still learning the math of the pace clock for intervals. I know the fish think something like the 910 is heresy but I find it useful to have a record of my workout to review and to keep track of everything. And my summer pool doesn't have a pace clock, so the 910 really helps there. But I do use the pace clock as well, I look at it each lap to track my speed and the pace clock is better for keeping you honest about your rest intervals.

4-7,000 meters/week sounds low even to me. For me, just moving from the typical triathlete 6-8,000 yards/week to 10-12,000 yards a week over the past couple of months has really helped my swimming. I'm sure more would be better, but it's going to be hard for me to find more time than that for swimming. So if you can't do the 20K+/week some are recommending, even a moderate increase is well worth it.
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Re: Why is my paddle like swim faster than my high elbow stroke? [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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tttiltheend wrote:
FranzZemen wrote:
lightheir wrote:
Are you getting your pace off the 910 xt that it calculates, or are you actually using true clock time (stopwatch style) over a true 200m? Could explain the inconsistency in paces that I'm perceiving.


910xt time. But you know, I was sitting here thinking about it. I think over the faster times I posted are really over 100 m. At 200 m its probably 25% slower - still fast by my long swim standards though.

But there is the dilemma for me. In running, my 5k times (around 20 min) translate well to my half marathon times by the charts. My cycling performance is similar from an HR perspective (don't own a power meter). But in swimming, I feel I'm competitive at a very short distance, but can't sustain it and that points to endurance. This stroke pattern seems to require far less energy.

PS: I consistently put in a minimum of 4000 m and up to 7000 m per week. Is that too low? Now training for my first IM.


The 910 XT will give accurate results for pace if you hit lap at the start and end of any interval; it's just simple math; no fancy stroke programming. With practice, it's possible to hit lap at the start and stop without affecting your workout. After your rest, hit lap again when you start the next interval. Within an interval, however, I think the 910 pace for each length seems to have some error IMHO as it seems to not always be consistent in exactly when it detects your turn. So take length to length pace with a grain of salt. And of course, stop it for drills or kick sets.

As an intermediate-level swimmer that started at a relatively old age, I'm still learning the math of the pace clock for intervals. I know the fish think something like the 910 is heresy but I find it useful to have a record of my workout to review and to keep track of everything. And my summer pool doesn't have a pace clock, so the 910 really helps there. But I do use the pace clock as well, I look at it each lap to track my speed and the pace clock is better for keeping you honest about your rest intervals.

4-7,000 meters/week sounds low even to me. For me, just moving from the typical triathlete 6-8,000 yards/week to 10-12,000 yards a week over the past couple of months has really helped my swimming. I'm sure more would be better, but it's going to be hard for me to find more time than that for swimming. So if you can't do the 20K+/week some are recommending, even a moderate increase is well worth it.

I've never used a Garmin but just a regular old-school Timex Ironman watch (around $40) has worked fine for me over the years. I grew up using the pace clock so I've always used the clock but having the watch is useful as a back-up in case you can't see the pace clock when you finish, or it stops, etc, etc. I can glance at my watch right after flipping but before pushing off, and this helps me keep up if I'm doing 200s or longer:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Why is my paddle like swim faster than my high elbow stroke? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
Without having seen you…

This is it: "For instance, I can manage a faster stroke rate, so even though there's less pull (or I feel like there's less), the stroke rate makes up for it".

People like you and I who came late to swimming aren't going to be able to go fast with a long stroke: we likely don't have the excellent streamlining and strong connected kick that Real Fish (™) developed over millions of yards and mean coaches. I make up for it by using a strong aerobic engine to take lots of less-powerful strokes. That, and not using the S-stroke that all those old fishes still use :-)


You should now work on making your high-turnover technique as effective as possible: pulling straight back, getting to the catch point quickly and efficiently, keeping your legs high, etc.


The clock is the ultimate arbiter of "what works."

this is the right answer in this thread. Coming late to swimming (as a adult) it s almost impossible to developed a strong feel for water. That said, you can put together a acceptable stroke and work on the aerobic engine....and performe well in triathlon.

Most likely, if the OP is talking about 1:50/100m or yards, it s a relatively safe bet to say that his ''high elbow'' stroke is non-existent. You dont have a proper catch at all at those speed.

you will need a lot more yards in the pool to be able to execute a proper catch. working on shorter intervals at higher speed where your stroke dont fall apart will be the ticket to improvement. And gradually doing longer and longer sets until conditioning improve and you can hold a proper stroke longer. But my opinion is, at 1:50..there is no high elbow/proper catch happening at all.

it s a good news in one way...you can improve enormously this season if you train properly and make some adjustment

.

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: Why is my paddle like swim faster than my high elbow stroke? [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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jonnyo wrote:
klehner wrote:
Without having seen you…

This is it: "For instance, I can manage a faster stroke rate, so even though there's less pull (or I feel like there's less), the stroke rate makes up for it".

People like you and I who came late to swimming aren't going to be able to go fast with a long stroke: we likely don't have the excellent streamlining and strong connected kick that Real Fish (™) developed over millions of yards and mean coaches. I make up for it by using a strong aerobic engine to take lots of less-powerful strokes. That, and not using the S-stroke that all those old fishes still use :-)


You should now work on making your high-turnover technique as effective as possible: pulling straight back, getting to the catch point quickly and efficiently, keeping your legs high, etc.


The clock is the ultimate arbiter of "what works."


this is the right answer in this thread. Coming late to swimming (as a adult) it s almost impossible to developed a strong feel for water. That said, you can put together a acceptable stroke and work on the aerobic engine....and performe well in triathlon.

Most likely, if the OP is talking about 1:50/100m or yards, it s a relatively safe bet to say that his ''high elbow'' stroke is non-existent. You dont have a proper catch at all at those speed.

you will need a lot more yards in the pool to be able to execute a proper catch. working on shorter intervals at higher speed where your stroke dont fall apart will be the ticket to improvement. And gradually doing longer and longer sets until conditioning improve and you can hold a proper stroke longer. But my opinion is, at 1:50..there is no high elbow/proper catch happening at all.

it s a good news in one way...you can improve enormously this season if you train properly and make some adjustment

.

I'll pile on here and say it is most likely the stroke rate as well. Also, swimming in more of a paddling style can make it much easier to utilize the twisting of the torso to provide propulsion. This is much more powerful than the arms.
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