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Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video

 

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Joman1

Mar 22, 12 22:25

Post #26 of 48 (1086 views)
Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Stop cupping your hand and bending your wrist when you put it in the water. Looks weird and is totally ineffective. I always envision the hand reaching straight out in front of me trying to grab a $100 bill. Cupping your hand doesn't equate into more surface area when pulling underwater. Throw your body forward more by getting a better shoulder rotation and digging in when pulling underwater. Also, I highly recommend working on bilateral breathing, it will help you to swim in a straight line in open water.


tribern

Mar 23, 12 5:08

Post #27 of 48 (1056 views)
Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I haven't read all the replies and posts, so sorry if this has been said before.

Your pull is ineffectual because you are pulling elbow first, and your hand is following. You should be keeping your elbow up, and pulling with your hand until yourhand reaches the elbow, then pulling your arm (elbow and hand in the same plane) through with your lats, until you're mid body then pushing with your triceps.

Here's the analagy: You look like you're pulling yourself up a ladder. You want to feel/look like you're pulling down a sash window when standing a foot away from it.

Hope this helps.


(This post was edited by tribern on Mar 23, 12 5:12)


Tri3

Mar 23, 12 9:26

Post #28 of 48 (1010 views)
Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

My guess is that if you stick to the FF program and can get the SOL and other drills to work, you will make big gains. At least that has been my experience. In figuring out for your self how to do the drills you'll get down the basics of propulsion, timing, etc. So for me, I was spinning/slipping through the water the way you seem to. Didn't do any focus on "catch" or "EVF" or those things, and yet, having gotten the basics of FF down, I really can grab and pull the way I never have been able to.

FF and swimming hard/volume are not mutually exclusive. In fact, hardest swim workouts I've ever done have been the FF advanced program. (Most fun too!) At $70, and including video review, it's the best value I've found.


Borden

Mar 26, 12 7:13

Post #29 of 48 (928 views)
Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [duffman] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thanks for all the replies!
I havent replied because I wanted to take a few swims to incorporate all the feedback.

duffman wrote:
arms crossing over
tighten up kick
pull is weak--couldn't tell for sure why you've got to pull more water though, paddles maybe?
appears that you're trying to "look pretty," turn it over faster and forget style points

I had stayed away from the paddles because of all the rumors of shoulder injuries. I am now using them for warm up. And noticed the difference quickly.

Ti seemed to have a big emphasis on looking pretty. I really like that you've helped me abandon it.
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Borden

Mar 26, 12 7:17

Post #30 of 48 (925 views)
Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [DarkSpeedWorks] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
It is very difficult to tell from your video, but the main thing is that your pull seems not to be not very effectual. You are just slicing your arms through the water, you're not doing much to 'grab' or catch the water. If I could see a lot better, I could probably give you more info. What did your private one-on-one coach say about it? Any comments about early vertical forearm? Did he/she tell you how to correct the problems?

Coach focused a lot on my kick. We went over EVF and honestly, I thought I was doing a good job. I have noticed other swimming beside me getting a big burst with each stroke, where I just kind of peter along. Now, I have been focusing on really keeping the elbow up and fingers down.

I have seen a few illustrations where the arm crosses slightly in front of the chest on the stroke and some where the stroke happens to the side. I've also seen a images of a rotated swimmer where the arm strokes in front of the chest and due to rotation its to the side of the body. Which is right?
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Borden

Mar 26, 12 7:26

Post #31 of 48 (917 views)
Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Cervelo Apple] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Cervelo Apple wrote:
Not bad. You are doing something weird with your left wrist - it's like being arched or something just as you are entering the water. Sure you have some cross-over as well with the left arm (if you are fast and cross-overing..and not seeing pain...it could be okay for a triathlete though) but I would say just work on proper hand entry. You could also pick up the pace a little bit.

Just looks like you need to work on the concept of reaching and then pushing that water down. Fingers together..etc.

Kick is okay...better than those triathletes that don't believe in kicking.

The left wrist thing is a product of one of the EN drills where you point your finger tips down as soon as you get them in the water to help initiate the EVF. I had no idea I was such an overachiever.

I am paying a lot of attention to the crossover now. I had been trying to extend my arm as far as possible and I was envisioning a point in front of the center of my head that I was reaching. This must've resulted in the crossover. Now, I am reaching with my shoulder instead of the arm and my head naturally shift to the side of the reaching arm. Is that right?
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Borden

Mar 26, 12 7:28

Post #32 of 48 (916 views)
Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [bluepoint] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

bluepoint wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
It is very difficult to tell from your video, but the main thing is that your pull seems not to be not very effectual. You are just slicing your arms through the water, you're not doing much to 'grab' or catch the water. If I could see a lot better, I could probably give you more info. What did your private one-on-one coach say about it? Any comments about early vertical forearm? Did he/she tell you how to correct the problems?


x2

To the OP - it doesn't look like you're grabbing any water. It would be interesting to see what you look like if all you changed was trying to really grab the water.

This is what I've done. Instead of thinking for each lap how much I hate swimming, I am thinking of my form.
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Borden

Mar 26, 12 7:29

Post #33 of 48 (914 views)
Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [skip] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

skip wrote:
As noted above you seem to be lacking propulsion from your pull - the question is why. I think it's because you have a dropped elbow - which means you are losing the surface area of your forearm - your elbow is coming down and in towards your centerline and then sliding back toward your feet. You need to keep it up and out and grip more water with your arm, not just your hand. Right now your arm is taking the path of least resistance until you recover it, you want the path of most, or at least more resistance. One way to visualize this is to think about reaching over a barrel that is horizontal underneath you at your chest/neck and trying to lever yourself over the barrel. Not above the water, but after your hand enters and moves forward.

Here's an article that might help:http://www.h2oustonswims.org/...d_dropped_elbow.html[/quote[/url]]

Thanks for this, man. It really helped me visualize what was going on.
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Borden

Mar 26, 12 7:31

Post #34 of 48 (911 views)
Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [jbank] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

jbank wrote:
Looks like you have plenty of stuff to work on (that's great by the way, it would be frustrating if you were doing everything right and were still slow). I'm not an expert, so take my list with a grain of salt. Many of these are noted by others, but I'll list all that I saw:
1.) Your cocked left wrist out of the water is weird. Not sure it is "wrong", but definitely not standard.
2.) You seem to try to reach all the way over the water, it is ok to let your hand enter earlier than that.
3.) You are definitely reaching across the center line of your body.
4.) Your body position slowly gets worse as the lap progresses; I can see your feet at the surface at the beginning and then they sink never to surface again. On good swimmers, you'll see their feet barely breaking the water surface.
5.) Try to only breathe with one goggle out of the water. You don't need to turn your head that far.
6.) Your arm timing seems slightly off to me; I think you could benefit by swimming a bit more "front-quadrant".
7.) You are babying the water a bit. You don't have to be so nice to it. ;)

Thanks for teh laundry list. I took it to the pool!
I am curious about the timing and how/where/why I can do better. Can you explain that a little more?
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Borden

Mar 26, 12 7:34

Post #35 of 48 (910 views)
Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [cam2win] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

cam2win wrote:
A lot of people are talking about your "pull" and they are correct, it's an issue and one that others have already provided some advice on. I am not sure it's your "biggest" issue.

A few others have mentioned either "kick" or "body positioning", I think this is your bigger issue.

To put it plain and simple, you need work on getting your hips/a$$ up higher in the water when you swim. This will allow you to maintain a small kick. You almost/pretty much want the top of your butt to either break through the top of the waters surface or very close.

For reference when I see people in the pool dragging their hips and they're ankle doesn't break the waters surface with their kick I think of a boat trying to get up on plane. Notice how when you get in a boat and you throttle it but it takes a bit before it comes up on plane but there is a lot of throttle on the gas, then it gets on plane and really takes off? A lot of time in swimming it's the same thing, you are putting out similar power to others around you, but your body position is to low/not up on plane you don't go as fast. Get your body position right and learn to hold/maintain it longer and that will make you faster. Why do you think everyone love's swimming in wetsuits? It pick their ass up for them and gets them higher in the water then they normally are, it also helps hold them there while once fatigue sets in.

In the future, don't post you're warm up swim. Everybody looks good during warm up, you're fresh. Post the last 500 yards you swim when you're good and tired and you're natural form can be seen. This shows your real issues.

If you are an Endurance Nation member you should send this video or a new one to Rich, guy swam in college and knows his sh!t. He swims 55:xx Ironmans all day long.

The boat on a plane reference really struck home. Now that you've made me aware of it, I can feel when I fall off plane. Thanks so much.

I chose the warm up because I wanted to show what I thought my best form was. I know I look like crap at the end!
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Borden

Mar 26, 12 7:35

Post #36 of 48 (905 views)
Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [snackchair] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

snackchair wrote:
I'll echo the comments about not catching water.

A helpful thing to think about is pushing the water backwards as soon as your arm enters the water. Attempting to do so will force an early vertical forearm and force you to finish your stroke.

I would get a pool buoy and really just focus on pulling. Do some work with paddles as well. Cut out having to worry about kick and body position and just focus on learning to push the water backwards.

I've started doing activy recovery between sets with the pull buoy and really focusing on EVF . Thanks for suggesting it.
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Borden

Mar 26, 12 7:37

Post #37 of 48 (904 views)
Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Philosoraptor] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Philosoraptor wrote:
I have found that one handed drills have been really useful for improving my catch. These can be done a couple of ways. The easiest is to just hold a kickboard in front (a touch wider than your shoulder) and to just swim wit hthe other arm while taking breaths on the side you are swimming with. This really helps me to get a feel for the catch phase and is a good way to work on developing a high elbow/vertical forearm catch and to commit it to neuromuscular memory. As you get better at it, ditch the kickboard. If you get even better you can then let your non-swimming arm stay streamlined by your side. I find this particularly useful for developing the catch at full extension and for working on not dropping the forward arm when I breathe (say the left arm when I breathe on the right side or vice versa).

I think some of the stuff on swimsmooth.com would be useful for you. This is the online resource and dvd that I use and have found it very helpful.

I downloaded the swim smooth animation and have been looking it over. It really helps to see the breakdown.
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Borden

Mar 26, 12 7:38

Post #38 of 48 (903 views)
Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [need4speed] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

need4speed wrote:
The upper and lower halves of your body are disconnected. Your legs are kicking, your arms are moving, but they're not moving in synchronization. Freestyle swimming is a continuous movement from the tips of your fingers to the tips of your toes. The "rotation" you will hear people talk about is the critical component that links the stroke together and involves transferring the weight of your body from one side to the other. You don't have much rotation and your legs appear to be sinking a bit. This is probably the reason you are not getting much out of your pull.

Find a swim coach and work with them often. Listen to them and do what they say. Back off your running and biking if you need to, but you need to spend a lot of time in the water with someone who can help get you going.

I feel like this disconnect is related to the timing of the kick with the pull. How can I correct this?
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Borden

Mar 26, 12 7:40

Post #39 of 48 (901 views)
Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [realAlbertan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

realAlbertan wrote:
His knee kicking is making him sink, my point is there is more wrong than right and the op needs to focus on breaking the stroke down and building it back up. Those 2 seconds Ryan is underwater are the fastest 2 seconds n each 50.

How do I correct the knee kick? How am I supposed to kick?
I know from the hips, but are the knees locked?
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DarkSpeedWorks

Mar 26, 12 7:43

Post #40 of 48 (899 views)
Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Borden wrote:
I have seen a few illustrations where the arm crosses slightly in front of the chest on the stroke and some where the stroke happens to the side. I've also seen a images of a rotated swimmer where the arm strokes in front of the chest and due to rotation its to the side of the body. Which is right?

You're picking up on something very important. And many illustrations out there online are plain wrong. The problem is, if you have decent body rotation (as you should), you have two completely separate frames of reference. The first one is that of the pool and that is essentially stationary. The second one is your upper body, but that one is constantly rotating back and forth. Then, add to that, the part of your body that can visually check your limb positions (your eyes) is mounted in yet another moving object, your head. And your head tries to stay mostly stationary, but then rotates frequently to breathe. So, ...

During part of the underwater pull, yes, your hand and forearm is definitely between your torso and the pool bottom. But, during this same instant in time, your arm is "out to the side" relative to the your chest and shoulder. I have a poolside dryland demo that demonstrates this very easily, but describing it on the net is kinda hard.




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Borden

Mar 26, 12 7:58

Post #41 of 48 (891 views)
Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [DarkSpeedWorks] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Borden wrote:
I have seen a few illustrations where the arm crosses slightly in front of the chest on the stroke and some where the stroke happens to the side. I've also seen a images of a rotated swimmer where the arm strokes in front of the chest and due to rotation its to the side of the body. Which is right?


You're picking up on something very important. And many illustrations out there online are plain wrong. The problem is, if you have decent body rotation (as you should), you have two completely separate frames of reference. The first one is that of the pool and that is essentially stationary. The second one is your upper body, but that one is constantly rotating back and forth. Then, add to that, the part of your body that can visually check your limb positions (your eyes) is mounted in yet another moving object, your head. And your head tries to stay mostly stationary, but then rotates frequently to breathe. So, ...

During part of the underwater pull, yes, your hand and forearm is definitely between your torso and the pool bottom. But, during this same instant in time, your arm is "out to the side" relative to the your chest and shoulder. I have a poolside dryland demo that demonstrates this very easily, but describing it on the net is kinda hard.

From the point of reference of the wall/floor. Would it be correct to say that my arm pulls perpendiular to the floor and parallel to the wall?

From the point of view of my body, does the arm initiate the pull to the side of my body and as my body rotates, the pull happens in front of my chest?

Should the body rotate 90 degrees to each side? or 45?
If I took to images facing right and left, would they sit back to back or shoulder to shoulder?
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FLA Jill

Mar 26, 12 8:20

Post #42 of 48 (875 views)
Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Kicking on your back with arms in a streamline position can actually be a fairly good drill for figuring out the hips-not knees deal because you just can't get away with kicking from the knees from that position.


jbank

Mar 26, 12 9:10

Post #43 of 48 (843 views)
Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Borden wrote:
realAlbertan wrote:
His knee kicking is making him sink, my point is there is more wrong than right and the op needs to focus on breaking the stroke down and building it back up. Those 2 seconds Ryan is underwater are the fastest 2 seconds n each 50.


How do I correct the knee kick? How am I supposed to kick?
I know from the hips, but are the knees locked?


I saw a good explanation of this in "Swimming Fastest". He basically says that on the downbeat, your knee can be flexed a bit since
this orients your shin to foot portion of your leg backward so that it pushes you forward and gives some propulsion. People with very
flexible ankles can maintain that backward orientation of their feet even longer. On the upbeat, your leg is best recovered straight
since a bent knee on the upbeat will be pushing you the wrong way. So slight bend of the knee on the downbeat, straight on the upbeat.
I find this easier to practice with fins. Good swimmers of course do this naturally, but for those of us taking it up late in life it can be
helpful to be very explicit about what is supposed to happen.


(This post was edited by jbank on Mar 26, 12 9:37)


realAlbertan

Mar 26, 12 9:16

Post #44 of 48 (834 views)
Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Borden wrote:
realAlbertan wrote:
His knee kicking is making him sink, my point is there is more wrong than right and the op needs to focus on breaking the stroke down and building it back up. Those 2 seconds Ryan is underwater are the fastest 2 seconds n each 50.

How do I correct the knee kick? How am I supposed to kick?
I know from the hips, but are the knees locked?

knees should be slightly loose. They are an extension of tge kicking motion as are your ankles. Try locking them as a drill.
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jbank

Mar 26, 12 9:19

Post #45 of 48 (830 views)
Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Borden wrote:
I am curious about the timing and how/where/why I can do better. Can you explain that a little more?

I don't think I can describe the timing exactly, but I think I can describe a process that may help you discover some better timing.
Think of there as being two extreme styles of swimming freestyle. In one, your arms are always in opposition to each other like
a propeller blade. In the other, you are doing "catch-up" where you wait for your other arm to get all the way in front before
pulling with the other arm. Real swimming should be somewhere in between those two; although different people will find they
like slightly different points along that spectrum. You look to me like you are closer to the first style and could benefit from
experimenting with what it feels like to swim in a more catch-up style. I think you will find it encourages you to find other ways
to keep your head up to breathe than to push down on the water (e.g. better body position). That then might let you change
your stroke from pushing down on the water to pushing back on the water.

The SoL drill targets a similar problem, but works on it slightly differently.


N. Dorphin

Mar 26, 12 9:35

Post #46 of 48 (819 views)
Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Borden wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Borden wrote:
I have seen a few illustrations where the arm crosses slightly in front of the chest on the stroke and some where the stroke happens to the side. I've also seen a images of a rotated swimmer where the arm strokes in front of the chest and due to rotation its to the side of the body. Which is right?


You're picking up on something very important. And many illustrations out there online are plain wrong. The problem is, if you have decent body rotation (as you should), you have two completely separate frames of reference. The first one is that of the pool and that is essentially stationary. The second one is your upper body, but that one is constantly rotating back and forth. Then, add to that, the part of your body that can visually check your limb positions (your eyes) is mounted in yet another moving object, your head. And your head tries to stay mostly stationary, but then rotates frequently to breathe. So, ...

During part of the underwater pull, yes, your hand and forearm is definitely between your torso and the pool bottom. But, during this same instant in time, your arm is "out to the side" relative to the your chest and shoulder. I have a poolside dryland demo that demonstrates this very easily, but describing it on the net is kinda hard.


From the point of reference of the wall/floor. Would it be correct to say that my arm pulls perpendiular to the floor and parallel to the wall?

From the point of view of my body, does the arm initiate the pull to the side of my body and as my body rotates, the pull happens in front of my chest?

Should the body rotate 90 degrees to each side? or 45?
If I took to images facing right and left, would they sit back to back or shoulder to shoulder?

My add'l $0.02 as yet another former competitive swimmer/28 min HIM swimmer:

--Think of your entire forearm as your pulling surface; not just your hand. Stretch straight out on your extended arm, then pull back with your forearm vertically and forcefully. Applying maximum backward power to the water is half the equation.
--Rotate your whole body in unison and keep yer butt dry(someone else said this. . .). Looking straight down at the bottom of the pool will help get you flat in the water and minimize drag. This is the other half of the equation.
--Use a 6-beat kick (3 with each armstroke). Each 3 kicks should be used not only for propulsion, but to aid body rotation. Kicking on side/switching sides w/armstroke helps me with this.
--Our tips may be helpful, but as a whole they may make for a confusing mishmash. I'd suggest a coach. Good luck!
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phog

Mar 26, 12 9:41

Post #47 of 48 (811 views)
Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

After watching the video I would make a couple of observations.

By the way if this is where you are at after 2 years, you are doing well. Most non-fishes never get truly comfortable in the water, because they didn't start out there when they were 6 or 7 years old.

As you have spent a great deal of time getting the stroke right you suffer from what a lot of people suffer from, your stroke is too controlled. Relax. The left arm especially as well as the attempt to breath on the left side. One of the results is the rigid wrist position of your left hand and a much more awkward head position to the left side. Bilateral breathing works for some, it's not an absolute requirement for good swimming, assuming you aren't aiming for London 2012. When you control the recovery part of the stroke you waste energy, make your whole body more rigid. You become a log.

Your arms cross over slightly and this does things to the body roll and foot position. Clean it up a bit. The "current" standard which is faster than the old style pull ( S curve) is to keep the elbows high, out of the water, which you do, and near the surface, when in the water, which you don't. When I look at your pull, what I see is that about half way through the pull, your elbow gets ahead of the pulling hand, so you are sliding out of the water without getting a complete pull. This could be where you are losing distance on the pull.

If you are swimming to win races in the pool, your kick needs work and you should be on a different forum. If it's Tri related, and I know this is sacrilege to many, as long as you are streamlined with pointed toes and you are not doing strange half breastroke/side stroke kicks and excessive rolling, I could care less. They are there to balance the pull where the most efficient speed comes from. It's usefull to have a little extra speed on hand, when swimming in a pack, but in the scheme of things using your legs can take a lot of oxygen out of your system without a lot of return.

Cheers


jbank

Mar 26, 12 9:44

Post #48 of 48 (809 views)
Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [N. Dorphin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

N. Dorphin wrote:
--Use a 6-beat kick (3 with each armstroke). Each 3 kicks should be used not only for propulsion, but to aid body rotation. Kicking on side/switching sides w/armstroke helps me with this.
--Our tips may be helpful, but as a whole they may make for a confusing mishmash. I'd suggest a coach. Good luck!

x2 on the mishmash thing. I hope that my advice and those of others is helpful, but it is no substitute for a good coach.
Regarding the 6-beat kick, I know this will make me sound like a shill for FF (I really don't get any kickbacks), but the thing I liked about their course was that it taught different kicks as a skill and you can then decide after some experimentation which suits you. 6-beat works great for some folks, but might not work well for you, but it is worth learning and trying out. For me, I find 6-beat isn't best, I go with a 2-beat kick and move to a 4-beat when I up the pace a bit. Before FF I didn't even know what any of that meant much less how to do it.

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