paddles too big?

I regularly see people with much bigger ones. Mine are fairly standard I'd say...

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Turnover rate slower?

Have you counted strokes per length with both.

You are basically in the big chain ring riding at low RPM at a fixed power output.

Describe two things:
1. What happens to your hand when you enter into the water with paddles on versus without
2. What are you trying to fix/do/concentrate on when you use paddles? Or is it just what the coach writes on the board?

John

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This is exactly it, and as the OP suspected.

I had the exact same problem with you for quite awhile. I just couldn't get my arm strength up. I think you do need to do a fair amount of high-force swim intervals to develop this. It's part of the reason why joe-average no talent AGer who takes on swimming but only does slow steady swims, doesn't get much faster despite being able to swim for much longer.

Just as an n=1, this completely changed for me once I got a Vasa erg, which emphasizes arm/lat muscular endurance and deemphasizes the cardio component. Once I trained a bunch with this, I first got faster with the paddles, and then it quickly translated to my normal stroke without paddles. You'll find that once you can pull harder with the paddles, your stroke turnover will naturally increase without the paddles, which results in faster times.

As an aside, I never had any issues with the oft-mentioned 'you'll get injured with too much paddle use'. What actually would happen is that I would slow down so much once the arms got tired that I was swimming quite slowly relative to my normal pace, which limited the quality of the workout. Same on my Vasa - I was afraid I'd strain my shoulder/arms, but I've never even come close to getting injured on it despite doing the equivalent of all-paddle work on it. Just really, really tired in the muscles that count for swimming, which leads to real progress.

my guess is that you are pulling too deep. that reduces the amount of leverage you have on the pull. try to keep your elbow up throughout the stroke...

if as you say, you are a "strength -based swimmer" (which I interpret as long DPS, slower turnover), then the paddles are reducing that turnover even more.

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Hm... good idea. Will measure this...

1) I suspect I have less of an EVF with paddles, hence pulling with a more extendet elbow, hence having too long a lever... Will have to ask somebody to visually confirm though...
2) Coach. But the fact that I suck at it so bad makes me think I have a deficit I should address...

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i've been using paddles since high school (16+ years) and i'm consistently faster with them on than without. i've used gigantic ones, but knowing that my turnover rate is slow (think big gear work, muscle building, power), and then also used the paddles that just lay across my fingers which incorporate more forearm use, and getting that elbow bent.

the elbow thing is real. some people look at it as in breaking your elbow during the pull phase, i like to think of it as prep your wrist to trick your forearm to want to pull. that will then cause your elbow to give appropriately. maybe you want to get a pair of the short paddles to start. it'll keep your turnover rate high, but give you some of that extra pull strength you are looking for, and it might transition you to the bigger paddles easier.

Too big, way too big.

If you haven't been a swimmer all your life you risk shoulder injury with paddles that size.
If you are a strength based swimmer you will have more problems as the more efficient swimmers will handle the added load differently.
The reason you are slower on the 2nd set is simply muscle exhaustion. The next thing after that is muscle damage.
Get smaller paddles. You'll be just as fast.

What - you are going to get rhabdo from swimming with too big of paddles? I better not run any intervals anymore - my quads might rhabdo.

Too big, way too big. - maybe


If you haven't been a swimmer all your life you risk shoulder injury with paddles that size. Ummm, no. you risk shoulder injury with improper mechanics. being a swimmer "all your life" isn't a prerequisite to use larger paddles, good mechanics and adequate shoulderstability is.

If you are a strength based swimmer you will have more problems as the more efficient swimmers will handle the added load differently. no idea what that means...

The reason you are slower on the 2nd set is simply muscle exhaustion. The next thing after that is muscle damage. It was a 2 sets of 8x50 on 1:10 - getting 30-35 secs rest after each repeat. I doubt the OP was exhausted after that

Get smaller paddles. You'll be just as fast. in the OP's case, probably. that isn't a general rule though.

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Maybe or maybe not (On the deficit). What I was getting at, was that if you have a bad/short entry angle, you will feel the paddles move your hand around which will slow you down as that is added drag (Think of the effect when you stick your hand out a moving car window. Same principle). Also, if you aren't used to paddles, one of the things that can happen is you "place" your hand in the water to avoid the hand twisting around, which changes the stroke/grab and mechanics which will also slow you down.

John

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1) Your basic stroke mechanics are missing the catch.
2) your paddles are too big and you haven't the strength within that range of motion and leverage to properly activate your musculature to enact an effective pull.

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That's funny

Do you use a pull buoy? I was slower with paddles for a while too. My swim coach said I wasn't engaging my hips and rolling enough. The pull buoy was preventing me from doing this, so as soon as I ditched the pull buoy, my speed picked up dramatically.

i assume that a "strength based" swimmer can have good technique, they are simply, in cycling terms, a masher rather than a spinner. long dps, lower turnover... it isn't necessarily related to efficiency.

e.g. I'd consider a guy like Sun Yang to be "strength based" (that isn't a phrase I would normally use in swimming, but lets go with it for now). whereas Janet Evans would not. Both have excellent and efficient technique.

as far as the size, most people do use smaller paddles, and usually I'd recommend them, but I did swim with a couple of guys in college who were simply huge. there was no point in them using a paddle smaller than the extra large, because they had hands the size of my feet.. I have no idea how large the OP is...

My assumption on the 2x(8x50) set is that the OP has been swimming long enough and has enough experience to swim that set at an even pace throughout. Since he hasn't told me that these were all out sprints, then my assumption is that they are not.

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I use the term "strength based" for people who use power to overcome stroke inefficiencies (masher on a bike).
Once again not people you would typically swim with in a swim (fish) based group, but would in a Tri (brick) based group.
If a guy runs out of energy after one set of 8-50's at between 35 -40 secs, you have to believe he's pushing.

Sun Yang may be a strong swimmer even by Olympic swimming standards, but his dps is also otherworldly.
(too bad he dopes just a teensy weensy bit)

You gotta go swim with a Tri group to know what they are capable of, before applying your level of strength and stroke efficiency to them.
Really, it's a different world.

In your world I'm in lane 7 (in a 6 lane pool :0), in a Tri swim group sub 40, 50's for more than 1 set, would lead the group.
(a lot of the time).
It's one of the problems that comes about when swimmers give TRi guys advice.
It's like having Abebe Bikila explain running to me.

yeah, but I'm certain it isn't the first time he's done that set, so he knows how to pace it. just that he can't swim as fast when he sticks the paddles on.

if I do 2 sets of (8x50), the first time through is swim, 2nd time is pull, then I'll be going slower on the second set. it isn't a pacing issue, it's that I'm slower at pull than swim.

same thing with the OP. the assumption has to be that he knows how to pace the set, there was a change at the halfway point, and that change caused him to slow down. not that he's too fatigued to complete a relatively easy set of 50's.

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In the "you can't suck and blow" department, maybe when he uses paddles he forgets to kick!

why not ditch the paddles all together. They are a decent tool. But not needed to improve. If they are giving you trouble, why bother.

Oh and Jason is likely right: you're pull is too deep.

couple of fallacies in there

1) a masher isn't necessarily less efficient on the bike, or in the pool.
2) I do know how triathletes swim, and the good ones listen to what the swimmers have to say. The poor ones often don't. I've gone too hard and blown up on more sets in a month than they'll do all year. I understand what happens when you lose stroke efficiency, because that's what happens when you blow up in a set. The trick is training yourself to maintain that efficiency as best you can...

3) I'd bet Bikila can explain run mechanics to you better than your average triathlete.

there is a saying, "fake it til you make it" That basically means that even if you are a crappy swimmer, pretend to swim like a good one. Eventually, that pretending to swim like a good swimmer results in you actually swimming like a good swimmer.

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Do you use the wrist strap? Try the paddles without using the wrist strap, if the paddle comes off then there's a stroke/water entry problem. if you can use the paddles less wrist strap, chances are you don't have significant stroke flaws while using them.