Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons?
Quote | Reply
Just wonder how fast can you get with Total Immersion techniques. I see a lot of YouTube videos of slow motion and it looks super relaxed, but how fast can you do say an OLY 30min? 25min?
I was given the video and wonder if I should just jump into this for the next 9 months or not.
I'm a 36min/0.9mi, so just about anything will help. I'd like to find something and just stick with it, but if this is not for speed then I'm going to look for other info.

Thanks
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In my opinion, you are already swimming as fast as TI is liable to get you to. Find other info.

----------------------
Tri Me.
Work Me.
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
As
A non-swimmer, TI got me down to a 2'/100m before my first 70.3. I rocked a 37' at GCT (ocean, wetsuit) and was pumped with it.

I've been tying to get rid of the glide ever since.

@christopher_borden •
Spinning Spoke • Dimond Bikes • Flo Cycling • Castelli Cycling
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
osteomark wrote:
Just wonder how fast can you get with Total Immersion techniques. I see a lot of YouTube videos of slow motion and it looks super relaxed, but how fast can you do say an OLY 30min? 25min?
I was given the video and wonder if I should just jump into this for the next 9 months or not.
I'm a 36min/0.9mi, so just about anything will help. I'd like to find something and just stick with it, but if this is not for speed then I'm going to look for other info.

Thanks


I had a 42 min swim in my first oly (.9mi) in May. My last most recent oly was last week and I did 30 mins flat (.9mi). Try interval training in the pool. 10x200y with 60 second rests, as fast as you can. Do this for two months, I bet you will improve a lot. Leading up to the tri, do open water swimming once a week to get used to open water and sighting. Thats what I found worked for me. My goal next year is to get closer to 26min swim.
Last edited by: 125mph: Sep 13, 12 14:03
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
What would total immersion technique be?

Keeping your head low when you breathe? looking down below you as you swim?
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [125mph] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
125mph wrote:
I had a 42 min swim in my first oly (.9mi) in May. My last most recent oly was last week and I did 30 mins flat (.9mi). Try interval training in the pool. 10x200y with 60 second rests, as fast as you can. Do this for two months, I bet you will improve a lot. Leading up to the tri, do open water swimming once a week to get used to open water and sighting. Thats what I found worked for me. My goal next year is to get closer to 26min swim.

Yes.

Read this: http://www.amazon.com/...hletes/dp/1934030880

Hard work is going to get you where you want to be.

Join a masters group if you can... now. Chances are you're hanging on the edge of the pool after an hour just trying to breathe and keep up.

This happened to me, and i've gone from 2:00+/100m and just trying to 'finish' open water sprint races, to < 25min oly swims because i kept getting my ass handed to me 3 days a week.

best decision i made (masters)
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
osteomark wrote:
Just wonder how fast can you get with Total Immersion techniques. I see a lot of YouTube videos of slow motion and it looks super relaxed, but how fast can you do say an OLY 30min? 25min?
I was given the video and wonder if I should just jump into this for the next 9 months or not.
I'm a 36min/0.9mi, so just about anything will help. I'd like to find something and just stick with it, but if this is not for speed then I'm going to look for other info.

Thanks

TI teaches you to be able to complete the swim, not necessarily compete the swim.

What does your typical week and/or workouts look like in the pool? What's your swimming background?

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'd go the masters route and get coached feedback on your stroke. Plus, even the native fish I swim with argue turnover, turnover, turnover to help better prepare you for OWS. Smooth, long gliding strokes as told by TI are great in a pool, but are not always practical during OWS events.
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I looked at TI lots and read his book while learning to swim last summer. I probably got as fast as about 1:30 / 100 for 1500 using that method.

I am not not much faster if any, but as fit either. I agree with almost everyone that TI won't get you to your potential. It's all about the catch and fitness after a certain point.

24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
A TI topic!

Aoooga! Aooooga! Dive! Dive! Dive!
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
i've never heard of 'total immersion'. If it means totally immersing yourself in water and swimming as long as you can while holding your breath, then coming up for air, then immersing again. It would be inefficient.
Last edited by: cyclops: Sep 13, 12 14:37
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
osteomark wrote:
Just wonder how fast can you get with Total Immersion techniques. I see a lot of YouTube videos of slow motion and it looks super relaxed, but how fast can you do say an OLY 30min? 25min?
I was given the video and wonder if I should just jump into this for the next 9 months or not.
I'm a 36min/0.9mi, so just about anything will help. I'd like to find something and just stick with it, but if this is not for speed then I'm going to look for other info.

Thanks

I was a consistent 30min swimmer for Olympic distance. I took one TI lesson to learn the drills, then worked on them for about two months exclusively.. no freestyle swimming at all. After that, I did a month of freestyle swimming. Managed to get down to a 24min Olympic swim shortly after. In that whole three months, I never did more than 3500yards per week, one interval session (10x100yd) every two weeks. Longest pool swim was 2000yds. I did an open water 2.4mi swim just to try it, and ended up with a 1:13. Only a handful of tough workouts.. the rest were low yardage, focused around form. A lot of people say TI doesn't work, but six minutes off my Olympic and a 1:13IM swim are good enough for me.
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [phoenixR34] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 I agree with you. The drills are really, really helpful IMO (although damn I hate that 'shark fin' drill).

An efficient stroke will result in more speed.


http://aclockworkmango.com
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [LuvMyCrappyBike] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TI took me from no structure/form swimming to a 32 minute mile with a very comfortable pace. No need for the $500 class, the $20 video will suffice with a little bit of coaching from a friend/group/coach (If you have the money). I really believe the video helped strengthen my foundation and the coaching helped with my further progress. Good luck!

A true warrior leave no openings-Except in his mind.
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I've extensively read/used the Total Immersion books/concepts.

Honestly, the core concepts aren't any different than regular swimming in terms of maximizing hydrodynamics, building maximum efficiency in the water, and being as smooth as possible with careful attention to stroke form at all times during swimming.

The point where I think it really oversells itself is when it talks about how you never need to swim hard to get fast. Just 'swim easy' with 'focus on form' and you'll magically become FOP+, because you'll allegedly get all the fitness you need by swimming those nonmaximal effort yards with careful attention to form.

That's probably true for the dirt-slow swimmer (ex-me) until you get to about 1:50/100yds - anybody slower than that probably shouldn't be swimming hard because they're almost definitely swimming wrong in a major way. But once you're below that 1:50/100yd pace, you've got to have swim fitness, and if you never swim hard, you're never going to get much faster than that.

There's a reason why all competitive swimmers bust their tails in the pool. If it was just all swimming pretty, that's what they would be doing. But no, instead they're out doing gutbusting sets, 2x/day, every day.

Other than that whole 'swim easy' thing, I don't seem much difference in what TI preaches and regular swimming, with a possible exception of his emphasis on gliding, which is a good thing for raw beginners who invariably have overshortened strokes (but a bad thing for any nonbeginner who needs to minimize gliding while still maintaining a long stroke.)
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Well said

jaretj
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
lightheir wrote:
The point where I think it really oversells itself is when it talks about how you never need to swim hard to get fast.

Can you point out where it says this? I've heard this criticism of TI before and did not come across it in the book I read, nor the video I watched. I've seen it propagated on the internet but I've yet to come across a TI source that claims this.

I took a workshop at TI hq. Talked to my instructor, talked to two of the McLaughlin daughters who are TI instructors. The idea that they'd say "One never needs to swim hard to get fast" is laughable. Or that "swim easy" will get one to FOP is bullshit.

I'd like to see some evidence that TI says those things or else this persistent bit of mudslinging should be killed.
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
lightheir wrote:
I

That's probably true for the dirt-slow swimmer (ex-me) until you get to about 1:50/100yds - anybody slower than that probably shouldn't be swimming hard because they're almost definitely swimming wrong in a major way. But once you're below that 1:50/100yd pace, you've got to have swim fitness, and if you never swim hard, you're never going to get much faster than that.

There's a reason why all competitive swimmers bust their tails in the pool. If it was just all swimming pretty, that's what they would be doing. But no, instead they're out doing gutbusting sets, 2x/day, every day.

Other than that whole 'swim easy' thing, I don't seem much difference in what TI preaches and regular swimming, with a possible exception of his emphasis on gliding, which is a good thing for raw beginners who invariably have overshortened strokes (but a bad thing for any nonbeginner who needs to minimize gliding while still maintaining a long stroke.)

I don't disagree with you at all. Thing is, when I started doing triathlon, I just jumped in the pool and figured it out.. as do quite a few people in triathlon. Not everyone comes from a background of swimming, or even has any experience doing lap/freestyle swimming. The TI stuff puts you in the ballpark and gives a solid foundation. And yeah, you certainly hit a point where you aren't going to get any faster without some really punishing sessions in the water.. but for me, the TI stuff by itself got me far enough. I don't feel the need to kill myself in the pool to cut an additional 2min off my Olympic swim.
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [carbon] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
carbon wrote:
lightheir wrote:
The point where I think it really oversells itself is when it talks about how you never need to swim hard to get fast.


Can you point out where it says this? I've heard this criticism of TI before and did not come across it in the book I read, nor the video I watched. I've seen it propagated on the internet but I've yet to come across a TI source that claims this.

I took a workshop at TI hq. Talked to my instructor, talked to two of the McLaughlin daughters who are TI instructors. The idea that they'd say "One never needs to swim hard to get fast" is laughable. Or that "swim easy" will get one to FOP is bullshit.

I'd like to see some evidence that TI says those things or else this persistent bit of mudslinging should be killed.


I haven't seen the most recent edition of TI; they may have changed this, but the edition I read was just 3 years ago so not that old.

In that edition, it clearly says to NOT do hard sets. It clearly, explicitly says that by focusing on form, you will naturally build the strength and speed needed to swim fast. Not once does it mention intervals or overdistance sets, but repeatedly brings up the 'swim smooth and easy' concept. At least in the older edition, it was very obvious - and probably a good thing for me, as I bought into the kool-aid, and dived into the pool as a raw beginner most enthusiastically expecting some big gains on easy swimming.Had I known how hard it would be to get faster, I never would have started triathlon in the first place! This is not mudslinging in the least - that's exactly the thing I remember as most unique about TI - not the techique drills, not the smoothness, which are all exactly what every good swim coach recommends. It was that swim easy focusing on form but get fast concept. Not overstating this in the slightest at least with the edition I read.

There were two concepts in my edition of the book that struck me as flawed (I'm a lousy swimmer so don't trust me,go see for yourself) but I agreed completely with everything else in the book and it's still my #1 referred to book when I talk to total newbs asking me how to get into tri.

1) The whole 'swim easy' thing - as discussed above. Didn't work for me at all - actually for me, didn't even work at 2:05/100yd pace - I had to swim significantly harder (but not gutbusters) to start improving from even that pace. And yes, I took a few swim lessons which verified that I wasn't horrendously ugly in the water. Just didn't have the arm endurance - my max turnover rate then was nearly half as slow as it is now and I'm only at like 1:32/100yds for T-pace.

2) My edition of TI really emphasized swimming on your side, and had an entire popout box explaining that for heavier lean males like me, you had to find your 'sweet spot', which it clearly said could be nearly completely on your back (!!). Yes, that's exactly what it said, and that's exactly what I followed - so my breathing rotatin ended up with most of my face completely out of the water, to the point that people in the pool were asking my what stroke I was using since it didn't look like a freestyle stroke anymore. After nearly 6 months of swimming like this, took me 6 weeks of dedicated drillwork after a coach told me to cut it out, to eliminate that over-rotation, which hugely increased my speed - like a 20sec/100 legit gain with no fitness increase. That corkscrew effect really killed me. I don't know if the current book still talks about that 'sweet spot' being nearly on your back, but that was some of the worst advice I've ever gotten in swimming, anywhere.
Last edited by: lightheir: Sep 13, 12 18:31
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
My last comment in Terry's defense -

TI is NOT written for the competitive swimmer or triathlete. It is definitely targeted at recreational adult onset swimmers, most of whom will never ever race in their entire lives.

If you consider that as the level of competition of swimming, he is absolutely right - you can definitely just 'swim easy' and be amongst the fastest YMCA or recreational swimmers at your local pool. A 1:50/100 is on the fast side of the fast lane in the 4 YMCAs in my area unless a competitive swimmer ringer shows up. The average speed for the fast lane at lunch is about 1:55-2:00/100yds at least around here for all 4 YMCAs I go to (which is quite frustrating.)
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I started triathlon 12 years ago and hadn't swam competitively or for recreation prior to that. Was dead last out the water for my first tri. Struggled to swim 100 without fatigue.
I got the TI book and read it. No clinics or DVD.
Initially I did the core drills religiously. After a few years , I felt much more comfortable and better positioned in the water and can now consistently swim an IM sub 1:10. Never broke an hour but a bunch of 1:05 with moderate effort. I swim about 8000 yards a week and continue to do the core drills( side swim, press the buoy, superman etc.....) each week at least once.
TI drills got me comfortable in the water and has helped me with body position and roll. I admit, I also like the swim smooth website and have been playing around with their ideas the last two years.
All in all, a little guidance, dedication and consistency got me where I am today.
Hate the masters swim groups probably because it reminds me of two a days from high school football.
Good luck
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Lots of TI thread over the years.

This is probably one of the "best" and in particular, read and follow what Gerry Rodrigues has to say in the thread: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...t_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
lightheir wrote:
I haven't seen the most recent edition of TI; they may have changed this, but the edition I read was just 3 years ago so not that old.

In that edition, it clearly says to NOT do hard sets. It clearly, explicitly says that by focusing on form, you will naturally build the strength and speed needed to swim fast. Not once does it mention intervals or overdistance sets, but repeatedly brings up the 'swim smooth and easy' concept. At least in the older edition, it was very obvious - and probably a good thing for me, as I bought into the kool-aid, and dived into the pool as a raw beginner most enthusiastically expecting some big gains on easy swimming.Had I known how hard it would be to get faster, I never would have started triathlon in the first place! This is not mudslinging in the least - that's exactly the thing I remember as most unique about TI - not the techique drills, not the smoothness, which are all exactly what every good swim coach recommends. It was that swim easy focusing on form but get fast concept. Not overstating this in the slightest at least with the edition I read.

There were two concepts in my edition of the book that struck me as flawed (I'm a lousy swimmer so don't trust me,go see for yourself) but I agreed completely with everything else in the book and it's still my #1 referred to book when I talk to total newbs asking me how to get into tri.

1) The whole 'swim easy' thing - as discussed above. Didn't work for me at all - actually for me, didn't even work at 2:05/100yd pace - I had to swim significantly harder (but not gutbusters) to start improving from even that pace. And yes, I took a few swim lessons which verified that I wasn't horrendously ugly in the water. Just didn't have the arm endurance - my max turnover rate then was nearly half as slow as it is now and I'm only at like 1:32/100yds for T-pace.

2) My edition of TI really emphasized swimming on your side, and had an entire popout box explaining that for heavier lean males like me, you had to find your 'sweet spot', which it clearly said could be nearly completely on your back (!!). Yes, that's exactly what it said, and that's exactly what I followed - so my breathing rotatin ended up with most of my face completely out of the water, to the point that people in the pool were asking my what stroke I was using since it didn't look like a freestyle stroke anymore. After nearly 6 months of swimming like this, took me 6 weeks of dedicated drillwork after a coach told me to cut it out, to eliminate that over-rotation, which hugely increased my speed - like a 20sec/100 legit gain with no fitness increase. That corkscrew effect really killed me. I don't know if the current book still talks about that 'sweet spot' being nearly on your back, but that was some of the worst advice I've ever gotten in swimming, anywhere.

Yeah I'll agree it doesn't bring up interval or sets. I think the point they were emphasizing about swimming easy may have been aimed at beginners. If one is at a typical pool, there are people working really hard (splashing everywhere) and not really moving. For those people, swimming easy and working on technique will probably do more for them then increasing intensity. Once you get to a certain level of efficiency, than yeah, working harder is going to necessary. I can't see how TI could argue against this. Perhaps TI needs to better explain the points they're trying to make.

#2) Agree with you on this. I had the same problem from the Easy Freestyle DVD. Did end up overrotating and it was a problem that I needed to fix. When I was at the TI workshop one of the daughters mentioned they took this part out in the subsequent DVD as they were aware of this problem.
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [cyclops] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
cyclops wrote:
i've never heard of 'total immersion'. If it means totally immersing yourself in water and swimming as long as you can while holding your breath, then coming up for air, then immersing again. It would be inefficient.


Yeah, it's underwater dolphin kicks. Tough for longer distance races.
Last edited by: Goosedog: Sep 14, 12 7:43
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [carbon] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Agree with your comments. I'm glad I wasn't the only one who got nailed on that over-rotation - it was truly a horrible thing for me to fix. Literally like re-learning to swim all over again.

And also agree with your comment about the audience for TI. It really isn't aimed at competitive triathletes or swimmers, no matter how much the advocates and fans of the book say it's "for everybody." It really is aimed at the recreational "YMCA" swimmer, and as my prior post above, anything faster than 2:00/100yds is fast for the typical YMCA swimmer. At 1:50/100yds, you're dominating the fast lane at lunch, and at sub 1:40/100yds, you're so fast that you're lapping everyone in the fast lane for the typical recreational nonracing swimmers there. For those folks, swimming hard is definitely not as important as cleaning up their form, since the average pace of these swimmers is like 2:20-2:40+/100. I swim at 6 different Ys in the Norcal Bay Area at lunch due to work being at 6 different locations, so I feel that I have a pretty good sense of a typical YMCA recreational swimmer.
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
With TI swimming I got a 1:10 at IMMT and a :26 at an Olympic earlier in the summer.

–––––
"My lungs will not actually burst."
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
osteomark wrote:
I was given the video and wonder if I should just jump into this for the next 9 months or not.

Don't bother, it's not very useful or fast. Try a Masters Group at the pool.

TI is just a money maker for Terry Laughlin, nothing more. It shows people how to swim easier doing a screwed up Freestyle technique which should actually be considered a different stroke all together, like Breast Stroke, Backstroke, and now TI Stroke. It's not faster than Freestyle and you look dorky doing it.

It is soo funny watching the TI swimmers in the water stroking away and going nowhere quickly. So if you want to look like a complete dork, learn it, if not sell it on Ebay and join a Masters Group.
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [Pindurski] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Pindurski wrote:
With TI swimming I got a 1:10 at IMMT and a :26 at an Olympic earlier in the summer.


Good job. Unfortunately, if you took 100 randomly selected young men/women nonswimmers, and made them do 2 years of TI without any strenuous intervals or hard swimming, I doubt a majority of them would have similar results.
Last edited by: lightheir: Sep 14, 12 15:10
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
lightheir wrote:
At 1:50/100yds, you're dominating the fast lane at lunch, and at sub 1:40/100yds, you're so fast that you're lapping everyone in the fast lane for the typical recreational nonracing swimmers there.


Funny, I swim about 1:40/100yds at my local YMCA and consider myself slow compared to the other swimmers... They must be doing 1:20 to 1:30/100... I guess it all depends on region.
Last edited by: 125mph: Sep 14, 12 10:33
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [trihard4me] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trihard4me wrote:
osteomark wrote:
I was given the video and wonder if I should just jump into this for the next 9 months or not.


Don't bother, it's not very useful or fast. Try a Masters Group at the pool.

TI is just a money maker for Terry Laughlin, nothing more. It shows people how to swim easier doing a screwed up Freestyle technique which should actually be considered a different stroke all together, like Breast Stroke, Backstroke, and now TI Stroke. It's not faster than Freestyle and you look dorky doing it.

It is soo funny watching the TI swimmers in the water stroking away and going nowhere quickly. So if you want to look like a complete dork, learn it, if not sell it on Ebay and join a Masters Group.

Says the :57 minute swim pb "Pro" IM triathlete...


float , hammer , and jog

Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [125mph] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
125mph wrote:
lightheir wrote:
At 1:50/100yds, you're dominating the fast lane at lunch, and at sub 1:40/100yds, you're so fast that you're lapping everyone in the fast lane for the typical recreational nonracing swimmers there.


Funny, I swim about 1:40/100yds at my local YMCA and consider myself slow compared to the other swimmers... They must be doing 1:20 to 1:30/100... I guess it all depends on region.

You're in San Diego per your username stats. That probably has one of the highest % of fast swimmers in the country.

If you go to 10 random YMCAs in the country at noon, you'll be lucky to find even 10% of the swimmers swimming faster than 1:40/100.
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The problem with TI, at least for me, was that he describes the path from the result back without explaining the interstitial whys. Being long in the water with an "easy" stroke is the result of good form, but just trying to be long with a glide won't magically impart good form. Also, to swim fast with a slow turnover requires a great catch and a very explosive rotation, which comes at a cost. As others have said in other threads, form and fitness go hand-in-hand and complement each other. So, I have come full circle with T1 as I have a better understanding of swimming, and I would say that yes - you can swim pretty fast for a triathlete via T1 techniques (which really are not anything different than what everyone else advocates), but it took me 15 years to get there.
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Murphy'sLaw wrote:
trihard4me wrote:
osteomark wrote:
I was given the video and wonder if I should just jump into this for the next 9 months or not.


Don't bother, it's not very useful or fast. Try a Masters Group at the pool.

TI is just a money maker for Terry Laughlin, nothing more. It shows people how to swim easier doing a screwed up Freestyle technique which should actually be considered a different stroke all together, like Breast Stroke, Backstroke, and now TI Stroke. It's not faster than Freestyle and you look dorky doing it.

It is soo funny watching the TI swimmers in the water stroking away and going nowhere quickly. So if you want to look like a complete dork, learn it, if not sell it on Ebay and join a Masters Group.


Says the :57 minute swim pb "Pro" IM triathlete...

That's ALOT faster than you and in the top 10% of IM's,.
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [trihard4me] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm not claiming to be a Pro, nor am I slagging on other swimmers.

Man, I must be really bored to keep feeding the troll.


float , hammer , and jog

Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
lightheir wrote:
125mph wrote:
lightheir wrote:
At 1:50/100yds, you're dominating the fast lane at lunch, and at sub 1:40/100yds, you're so fast that you're lapping everyone in the fast lane for the typical recreational nonracing swimmers there.


Funny, I swim about 1:40/100yds at my local YMCA and consider myself slow compared to the other swimmers... They must be doing 1:20 to 1:30/100... I guess it all depends on region.


You're in San Diego per your username stats. That probably has one of the highest % of fast swimmers in the country.

If you go to 10 random YMCAs in the country at noon, you'll be lucky to find even 10% of the swimmers swimming faster than 1:40/100.


Probably true. I live in San Diego and have been literally swimming a few months and did a 1:20 2.4mile USMS ow race without a wetsuit, and it got me dead last, I think. Maybe I beat 1/2 70 yos???

However, put a wetsuit on me and I'm prolly 1:12 IM swim which is MOP. The only reason I can swim at all is my swim buddies, two ladies, swim 20 and 24 minute miles. They stop every 1/4 to 1/2 mile to wait for me to catch up. Yes, SD (So Cal in general) has sickly fast swimmers.

I'm going to start masters next week!
Last edited by: ImNoMDot: Sep 14, 12 14:54
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Lol, trihard4me apparently is a retired pro,who's half black and half white ,he also said he will spit in the face of relay racers at triathlons,according to his other thread. Like to see him try this on me at superfrog later this month,let's see what happens to him then.
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [CP78] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
CP78 wrote:
Lol, trihard4me apparently is a retired pro,who's half black and half white ,he also said he will spit in the face of relay racers at triathlons,according to his other thread. Like to see him try this on me at superfrog later this month,let's see what happens to him then.

Apparently you missed Dan's caution in the witch hunt thread, where violence or even virtual intimations of violence are pretty frowned upon.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
No violence,haha,he's a troll who's never even done a 5k

See this thread,where he threatened violence:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...earch_engine#4142945
BLeP wrote:
trihard4me wrote:

Personally, I'd make sure to spit on them, accidently, with a mouth full of Gatorade on the run, cut them off on the bike and swim over the top of them on the swim, just for kicks.




What the fuck is wrong with you?


Selling his Kona spot on EBAY
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...t_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
And on letsrun asking why triathletes are pussies, big time troll
http://www.letsrun.com/...d.php?thread=4785886
Last edited by: CP78: Sep 14, 12 16:17
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Coming from a competitive speed skating and cycling background, I went for my first open water swim with a friend of mine and I had no clue what I was doing other than trying to keep myself from drowning. Another person saw me swimming with my head coming up and I was sinking with every breath stroke. I mean, I was doing it all wrong but working twice as hard as everyone else out there.

That night, a guy stopped by my bike shop and dropped off a disc and it was total immersion. That night I watched it over and over and couldn't wait to try this technique out. I went to the pool the next few days and the following week I went back out for the open water swim and people could tell an difference and more importantly, I felt so much better in the water.

So, I think it's a great start to find your "base technique" but then everyone has their own little things they find that help them go a bit faster of feel relaxed. You need to find it but remember that the basics are always important.
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
lightheir wrote:
Pindurski wrote:
With TI swimming I got a 1:10 at IMMT and a :26 at an Olympic earlier in the summer.


Good job. Unfortunately, if you took 100 randomly selected young men/women nonswimmers, and made them do 2 years of TI without any strenuous intervals or hard swimming, I doubt a majority of them would have similar results.

This.

TI overemphasizes the glide phase, and presents a lot of concepts without the steps in between to reach them.

It will work for a few people (the spaghetti at the wall concept), and those people are generally the ones foaming at the mouth chanting "Terry is a god!" and berating everyone for their poor opinion of it. As I said, if you really don't know how to swim, and don't have access to a decent instructor, then TI can at least teach you to complete the swim. You may be one of those magical ones that it "clicks" for. The system is not bad for basic instruction, but there are much better resources out there (Swimsmooth and finding freestyle are two primary ones).

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [trihard4me] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
That's ALOT faster than you and in the top 10% of IM's,.


You are so full of shit it isn't even funny. I've been sitting on the sidelines, watching you puff your chest about your "accomplishments" as a "pro" triathlete over the last 3 months.....put up or shut up. Those of us who actually did race at a high level back in the 80s don't hide in anonymity. No, we weren't all part of the big 4 (much less MP/JR level for that matter), but we aren't casting stones at "slow" IM racers that we disapprove of now.

You are such a fast swimmer? Really? Post your name & results.

If you are as good as you say you are, post your name & don't hide in anonymity. Who are you? What are your actual results? Most people don't know this, back back in the 80s/early 90s all it took to get your pro card was a bit of extra cash & occasionally some semblance of proof that you had a top 10/5/3 finish on your resume, no matter how immaterial the race.

Lots of small dicked 40-somethings going around boasting about "their days as a pro".....are you THAT GUY? No? Then who are you? Lets hear it ex-pro, post your palmares & then talk smack. Until you do so you are just another Walter Mittiesque wanna-be/never-will-be railing against newbies/slowbies/TITbies.......nothing but talk.

____________
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." John Rogers
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [Pindurski] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
As an adult who learned to swim specifically for triathlon, TI gave me a lot of fundamental skills. I followed the skill drills religiously and only proceeded after mastering one before taking on the next because they built on each other. It worked for me. I've gone as fast as 57:18 for 2.4mi.

Those who learned as a kid to swim on a team should consider themselves lucky. Nothing like gasping for air doing intervals when the guy next to you is just doing an easy swim and you can barely keep up with him.

TI works, but keep your mind open to new technique advice. It's not for everyone, and some don't want to hear it mentioned. Nobody is going to stop you in the middle of a race to chastise you for your choice of technique.
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [Kevin in MD] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I hashed all this out on another thread,"TI Debate". But will explain quickly again. IMO there are two main ways to freestyle,"catch and pull"or Total Immersion. On a another website they were calling"catch and pull"the"swinger" style of swimming(everyone thought that was hysterical,including me). So I started called Total Immersion,"turnthrustglide". In the"swinger technique"you basically swing your arms as fast as possible and therefore it is the"fast"way to swim(many triathletes do this style). It does work but you tend to do a lot of strokes and in my opinion is not efficient. On the other hand"turnthrustglide"is easier,more relaxed,more fun,do less strokes and CAN be fast IF you practice. All you have to do to do"turnthrustglide"is TURN your shoulders(up to 90degrees),THRUST your arm forward and GLIDE(your glide is your follow through). The harder and smoother you do"turnthrustglide"the faster you go. My advice is to TRY both styles and do the one that works best!
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [TypeINative] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TypeINative wrote:
As an adult who learned to swim specifically for triathlon, TI gave me a lot of fundamental skills. I followed the skill drills religiously and only proceeded after mastering one before taking on the next because they built on each other. It worked for me. I've gone as fast as 57:18 for 2.4mi.

Those who learned as a kid to swim on a team should consider themselves lucky. Nothing like gasping for air doing intervals when the guy next to you is just doing an easy swim and you can barely keep up with him.

TI works, but keep your mind open to new technique advice. It's not for everyone, and some don't want to hear it mentioned. Nobody is going to stop you in the middle of a race to chastise you for your choice of technique.

+1

Helped me with the basics
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [key4871] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
+2. It seems to me that people are talking past each other a bit on this issue. You've got some elite/pro level people saying that TI doesn't work and won't make you fast. I can accept that a pro wouldn't want to train using TI. Don't know for sure - because I'm not a pro and never will be - but I can accept that and think it makes sense.

However, for me - someone with no swimming background whatsoever and who has only 6-8 hours a week to train - TI has worked wonders. It's helped my feel very comfortable in the water and, in a little over a year, taken me from no swimming ability at all to the point where I can do a low heart rate Olympic distance swim in around 28-29 minutes.

Now, I'm doing this for fun, and not to win any awards. But I will say that as an age group athlete, you can be very competitive at the Olympic distance with a 28-29 minute swim if you have a strong the bike and run. TI works for me as a training approach (because I do my relax, low heart rate swims on my rest days, allowing me to save my Zone 5 training efforts for the bike and run) and it works on race day because it makes the swim doable and I exit the water feeling fresh as a daisy, ready to have a strong bike and run.

“Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring.”
¯ Desmond Tutu
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [Goosedog] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
lol... you beat me to it, i wasn't gonna give him a hard time if someone else already did :)


-Jason
______________________________________________
Is that all you've got? Are you sure?
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [gjohnson] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I've been swimming TI for 4 years now.

Largely as a result of advice on this board I incorporate faster sets above OW race pace into my training, basically just upping my stroke rate, not gliding quite so much, but trying not to flail about/keep good form.

This has helped alot. I think of it as 'threshold TI'.

Now, I am by no means a fast swimmer by ST standards. But, with my glidy TI stroke, I was 8th out of +/- 400 swimmers at Rieslingman this june. Bear in mind I'm a fat opera singer with a drink problem. Time was around 1'25"/100m OW, 1km swim.

I'm doing Bilzen 111 this weekend and am curious to see how I stack up against the Belgians.

-------------------------------
´Get the most aero and light bike you can get. With the aero advantage you can be saving minutes and with the weight advantage you can be saving seconds. In a race against the clock both matter.´

BMANX
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [Barchettaman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thanks for that great advice. I have been thinking of doing some above race pace intervals now that I finished my last race of the year.

Do you use a tempo trainer and if so where do you set it for races and what kinds of pace do you use for your 'Threshhold TI' sets?

“Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring.”
¯ Desmond Tutu
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [gjohnson] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Dunno, but the wife is getting me one for my birthday.
I would describe my stroke rate as 'laughably slow'.
It was improved this afternoon by trying (and failing) to keep up with the 8-year olds in the next lane.
Honestly, how frustrating is that? Get your head down to try to swim as fast as a little kid & swim right up the rear of some random belgian woman doing leisurely breaststroke in the 'fast' lane. Dunno who was the more shocked.

-------------------------------
´Get the most aero and light bike you can get. With the aero advantage you can be saving minutes and with the weight advantage you can be saving seconds. In a race against the clock both matter.´

BMANX
Last edited by: Barchettaman: Sep 19, 12 13:28
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TI is a good place to start for new swimmers. If you're already fairly comfortable in the water then I'd look at something that teaches a more competitive style of swimming. I've found TI is good for building the foundations but can lack a bit when it comes to swimming fast.



Effortless Swimming

Join us on Facebook for weekly swim tips
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
osteomark wrote:
Just wonder how fast can you get with Total Immersion techniques. I see a lot of YouTube videos of slow motion and it looks super relaxed, but how fast can you do say an OLY 30min? 25min?
I was given the video and wonder if I should just jump into this for the next 9 months or not.
I'm a 36min/0.9mi, so just about anything will help. I'd like to find something and just stick with it, but if this is not for speed then I'm going to look for other info.

Thanks
i find swimsmooth.com to be very useful as a website. Infact i have a video 'lesson' booked this friday with paul newsome. Im a 1:55/100m pace swimmer over 1km and above trials, so he has his work cut out for him!
I would kill for a better swim like yourself. They say you cant win a tri on the swim, but you can def lose it. Playing catch up on the bike and run only gets you so far.
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [125mph] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
125mph wrote:
osteomark wrote:
Just wonder how fast can you get with Total Immersion techniques. I see a lot of YouTube videos of slow motion and it looks super relaxed, but how fast can you do say an OLY 30min? 25min?
I was given the video and wonder if I should just jump into this for the next 9 months or not.
I'm a 36min/0.9mi, so just about anything will help. I'd like to find something and just stick with it, but if this is not for speed then I'm going to look for other info.


+1
Thanks


I had a 42 min swim in my first oly (.9mi) in May. My last most recent oly was last week and I did 30 mins flat (.9mi). Try interval training in the pool. 10x200y with 60 second rests, as fast as you can. Do this for two months, I bet you will improve a lot. Leading up to the tri, do open water swimming once a week to get used to open water and sighting. Thats what I found worked for me. My goal next year is to get closer to 26min swim.

"You are never too old to set another goal or to dream a new dream" - Les Brown
"Discipline is the bridge between goals and accomplishment" - Jim Rohn
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [coates_hbk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I've won a few races on the strength of my swim.

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [realAlbertan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yes, we're all very well aware of your swimming prowess from your multiple posts and your list of accomplishments on your sig line. Mom and I are very proud of you son.
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [SlayerHatebreed] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I was making a direct reply about the old saying about losing on the swim...

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think TI is useful. I went from feeling like I was having a heart attack swimming to a 1:05 IM swim time doing TI 2x30 min a week in winter, off in fall and 3 open water swims per week in the summer. I was a serious spaz in the water b4 TI....and i actually like swimming now
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [realAlbertan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
realAlbertan wrote:
I've won a few races on the strength of my swim.
you prob have a decent ride and run too though!
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [coates_hbk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Local races its usually top 5/ bike, 10-15/run so only the really fast runners gain any considerable time.

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
35-40min on olympics. i actually use a tempo trainer set at 1.2 during oly or HIM and find it very helpful. this is my second year using TI. love it. will have a good six months of practicing in a 50m pool before my next tri in may 2013 so i hope my time to drop a little.
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [gleeclub] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I just finished reading Sheila Taormina's "Swim Speed Secrets" and I'm pretty impressed. Although I think Total Immersion has done a good job of making me feel comfortable in the water and teaching me the basics of swimming form, there's a lot it leaves out. Here are the big ones in my mind:

1. They don't place any emphasis at all on the underwater pull, which is the main focus of Sheila's book. Sheila aruges that the underwater pull is the most important part of swimming fast. A strong and proper underwater pull must be developed over time. This makes a ton of sense to me.

2. She argues that TI's total focus on streamlining and postion is overkill. This too makes sense to me - especially since we're all wearing wetsuits when we race. The wetsuits keep you in good position on top of the water - so why not focus more on the pull instead of devoting 100 percent of your time and effort to position in the water.

3. She argues that TI's focus on reaching forward as far as possible, a long, slow stroke and the "glide" leads to slower swimming. Makes sense. I've found that I tend to lose momentum during the glide and think I may be better served with a higher stroke count - which, according to Shelia, is easier to acomplish with a high elbow pull. TI's response is that this will lead to high heart rate swimming, which will kill you on the bike and run.

But I'm not buying that. I waste a ton of energy trying to reach as far as possible during my glide. I think a higher cadence with a stronger pull wouldn't necessarily require more energy or kill me on the bike and run.

It will be fun and interesting to put her ideas into practice over the next several months. There's a ton of great material in her book - which will need to be read and re-read several times. But I have a ton of respect for her and think she's done a great job explaining how to truly improve your time after you've gotten down the swimming A,B,Cs.

“Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring.”
¯ Desmond Tutu
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [gjohnson] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I just read her book and have started implementing the drills/technique. I can tell I used to be an elbow dropper. I knew I was slow but was never sore after swimming even after a mile and half open water swim. Last night I ran to the health club where we have a small 15 yard pool and spent half an hour doing various drills and just doing 30 yard sets focusing on form and gaining purchase on the water. I was much faster than I had been previously and at the end I my lats and delts were fatigued and today are sore. My turnover rate was much higher and I noticed bilateral breathing was much easier. Really excited to get in a longer pool and working up some endurance with proper form. I will start that when I can get back in the pool after surgery in late November. I won't be able to run for a few months and will be limited on what I can do on the bike but will be able to swim as soon as the wounds are healed. Will be all pull work but that will help me focus on what is important. Until then I am riding and running as much as my hip allows.
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
if you want to start using TI in swimming.
and in saying this as I'm currently trying to undo the persons F-ed technique.
and reprogram them away from all the bad habits they learned over the 2 years they did it would drive u insane
similar to driving NASCAR with Sunday drivers in a small village
better getting instructions from YouTube and saving time effort and money
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [osteomark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Here's a case study. First IM swim, no formal swim instruction, wetsuit: 1:08. After TI camp and $500 poorer, following a year of countless focused 30-45 minute sessions, same course, 1:10. That said, I actually enjoyed the swim the second time, felt comfortable, only breathed every 4th stroke, and cut 15 minutes off the bike leg. A couple of racers from my gym who kill me in the pool finished behind me in both races. I'd do TI again but agree that the videos can do what the camp does if you're diligent.
Quote Reply
Re: Who swims Total Immersion technique for triathlons? [ojorgenson] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I CAN NOT BELIEVE that the folks at Total Immersion do not teach or emphasize the high elbow catch. Wow. What a difference it makes. Sheila T is right. By focusing on extending your lead arm as far as possible and leaving it there for a long slow "glide," you cannot get your hand in position for a strong, high elbow catch. Also, if you're constantly dropping your arm down, not only don't you get any pull, but your in a bad position to start your recovery and, I suspect, also staying far less streamlined that you would otherwise be with a high elbow catch.

TI does a good job of teaching you to use your hips and to spear your recovery arm into the stroke. But leaving your lead hand out there while you glide is not free speed. It stops your momentum and prevents you from getting your arm in position for the high elbow catch. It's almost as if they've left out half the stroke. You're going to go a lot faster if you combine the hip thrust and spear with a high elbow underwater pull.

“Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring.”
¯ Desmond Tutu
Quote Reply