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Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid
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Record10Carbon
May 2, 12 7:07
Post #76 of 92
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Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [burnman]
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Seems, let there be no question - in Wisconsin for instance there is a pretty large community movement to not renew the contract for IMoo in some of the small towns on the bike course. Let alone tractors parked in the roads, tacks, glass and on and on.
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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
M~
May 2, 12 7:12
Post #77 of 92
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Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [R10C]
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R10C wrote:
While you are correct about WTC and some RD's. I think that you can rest assured that the prior owner of IMLP was not driven first and foremost by money. I can assure you that in the years I was putting on Rockman, no money was to be made. I invested damn near every cent into making certain that the event was as safe as possible - using Grahams vision and the real world at IMLP as an example to follow. These days, IMLP would not be the cookie cutter I would want to duplicate - Wildflower maybe, Canada maybe....but not the over crowded fiasco that IMLP has become.
From what I hear of many folks who have raced Canada the past few years....it is much worse. Drafting is ridiculously rampant. and again, too many folks on the course.
burnman
May 2, 12 7:22
Post #78 of 92
(963 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [R10C]
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R10C wrote:
Seems, let there be no question - in Wisconsin for instance there is a pretty large community movement to not renew the contract for IMoo in some of the small towns on the bike course. Let alone tractors parked in the roads, tacks, glass and on and on.
I use the word "seems" because I've never personally experienced any of the issues that so many people claim to encounter while training in the greater LP area. Trust me when I tell you that I'm there much more often than nearly everyone that expresses their dissatisfaction with the Lake Placid experience. If you're not doing anything stupid, then the vast majority of people that you encounter won't treat you as such. That's not a training lesson, that's a life lesson.
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thenicetwin
May 2, 12 8:07
Post #79 of 92
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Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [Fleck]
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Hi Steve,
I hope for a win/win as well.
Love to race there, love to train there and when I think of my schedule for the next year I envision a ride someway, somehow, in Lake Placid. Not racing this year but will be there to train and cheer on friends. In a way, Lake Placid, has become part of who I am...you NEVER forget your "first".
Athletes will still come to LP EVEN if the parties decide not to re-new the contract. It is a summer training destination now. I'd think REV3 or someone else would jump right in there to snatch a spot. I've heard some of the locals bitch about the crowds during IM week(s) but most benefit financially in some manner even if they don't realize it.
I've watched the town "grow up" with more name-brand hotels and large financial commitments with resorts, restaurants and development. Those parties carry a lot of clout with the elected townspeople and want their investments protected.
IF they were to conclude the long Ironman run then the merchants would be clamoring for new groups to come in. Can't imagine that the North American Quilting Society would spend more money than triathletes!
best to you.
Fleck
May 2, 12 8:56
Post #80 of 92
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Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [M~]
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From what I have observed the one thing that pisses off the motorists locals more than anything else is group riding/taking up entire lanes of traffic. And I also don't really get this from a training perspective either. You race alone/not SUPPOSE to draft. So train alone/don't ride in a group.
Mark,
The right kind of group riding can be
very beneficial
to most triathletes. Problem is, many do not do it right, but that is another subject for another thread.
The other issue related to this is, proper group riding technique - A tight two-up pace-line, the way most road riders ride when in a group, does not take up a lot of room, but many triathletes can't or wont ride like this. A single file pace line takes up even less space.
Steve Fleck
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(This post was
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by Fleck on May 2, 12 8:58)
gregyea
May 2, 12 10:51
Post #81 of 92
(872 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [tomziebart]
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Z is the MAN!
Fleck
May 2, 12 11:36
Post #82 of 92
(841 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [tomziebart]
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Question - why does either one of these groups need leverage? Everyone wins with IMLP. The area gets great economic impact, the city gets a World class event, athletes get a wonderful course and place to race - The race fills up in 10 min. I see no reason why either group would not want to continue with the race. Same with Penticton, CDA, Panama City Beach, Madison, etc. BTW - I have been to every IMLP with Ironman and have done the race four times. It is my favorite IM race in North America. Z
This. X2
Steve Fleck
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John Hirsch
May 2, 12 12:10
Post #83 of 92
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Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [monty]
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What Monty said.
But more to his point perhaps: Some happenings take of a life onto themselves. Its the experiences, the history, and the people involved that trump the current "logic" of putting the event on. Kona is a great example of that. Its Kona. Its Kona because its Kona. A great arguement could be made to move Kona, and people have. But to a lot of people (including me) Kona is a happening. Kinda of like Burning Man. I think the race at Lake Placid has reached that level, as did Roth. Its a classic, its a happening. the WTC could pass it up but I don't think they will because it makes money, and because to do so would further let in Challenge or Rev3. (For the record I would prefer that, but I don't see it happening for the reasons above).
IMLP hughly surpasses the income that the town gets from anything else. So while some locals will complain (and are right to do so at times) its not worse than other places like Wisconsin where a guy drove a tracker onto the course to mess with us, or Lou where I road over a giant circle with a line through it and the word "Ironman" and then there were reports of tacs on the road. Those cities have other sources of income too, they don't "need" ironman like Placid does. Placid, in this economy would be meaningful effected by IMLP shutting down and someone else not coming in.
A few other comments: If you think Lake Placid kills you on costs, your gonna love my town, New York City.
IMLP is not crowded compared to other courses. Its got one of the only closed bike courses. IMLou was so sketchy with no shoulder, huge groups on a smaller loop, and cars because its on important state highways. IMLP is a classic in part because its the one of, if not the best course in North America.
Also, while the town might have some vocal people who live there and don't love it, its got a lot of people that do. Smaller towns make for great venues because they really care and identify with the event. NYC won't care you are here. Lou didn't care about ironman the three years I did it. Downtown was a ghost town. Panama City, the same. LP goes all in for the event and 50000 people roll there to make it even bigger. If you are racing IMLP you feel like a rock star. IMLP is a sport crazy town and Ironman is a crazy sport.
Great town, great venue, great history with tons of athletes that love the event. This event lives on like Roth if WTC leave.
http://www.johnhirsch.org
M~
May 2, 12 12:16
Post #84 of 92
(810 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [John Hirsch]
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John Hirsch wrote:
What Monty said.
But more to his point perhaps: Some happenings take of a life onto themselves. Its the experiences, the history, and the people involved that trump the current "logic" of putting the event on. Kona is a great example of that. Its Kona. Its Kona because its Kona. A great arguement could be made to move Kona, and people have. But to a lot of people (including me) Kona is a happening. Kinda of like Burning Man. I think the race at Lake Placid has reached that level, as did Roth. Its a classic, its a happening. the WTC could pass it up but I don't think they will because it makes money, and because to do so would further let in Challenge or Rev3. (For the record I would prefer that, but I don't see it happening for the reasons above).
IMLP hughly surpasses the income that the town gets from anything else. So while some locals will complain (and are right to do so at times) its not worse than other places like Wisconsin where a guy drove a tracker onto the course to mess with us, or Lou where I road over a giant circle with a line through it and the word "Ironman" and then there were reports of tacs on the road. Those cities have other sources of income too, they don't "need" ironman like Placid does. Placid, in this economy would be meaningful effected by IMLP shutting down and someone else not coming in.
A few other comments: If you think Lake Placid kills you on costs, your gonna love my town, New York City.
IMLP is not crowded compared to other courses.
Its got one of the only closed bike courses. IMLou was so sketchy with no shoulder, huge groups on a smaller loop, and cars because its on important state highways. IMLP is a classic in part because its the one of, if not the best course in North America.
Also, while the town might have some vocal people who live there and don't love it, its got a lot of people that do. Smaller towns make for great venues because they really care and identify with the event. NYC won't care you are here. Lou didn't care about ironman the three years I did it. Downtown was a ghost town. Panama City, the same. LP goes all in for the event and 50000 people roll there to make it even bigger. If you are racing IMLP you feel like a rock star. IMLP is a sport crazy town and Ironman is a crazy sport.
Great town, great venue, great history with tons of athletes that love the event. This event lives on like Roth if WTC leave.
Well said John. The one issue I have is the bolded portion above. no disrespect intended but it always makes me chuckle when the guys at the FOP try and comment on how "crowded" the race is. The race is crowded, big time. Even at the back. Other than that, well articulated. :)
Daremo
May 2, 12 12:18
Post #85 of 92
(807 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [John Hirsch]
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I loved LP. Much better than my FL experience. The family and I made a nice vacation out of it and we stayed in town for about 4 days after the race. The main crowd left within a day or two and it was peaceful and relaxing.
I was not "racing" it hard since I was so out of shape so I really enjoyed the bike portion and the scenery and took it like a nice Sunday cruise. Seeing the falls and water on the edge of the road was magnificent. Even if it did rain the entire frickin' time! ;-P
But I do understand the desire of some to not host the race. It is a hassle for the locals.
_____________________________________________
Rick, USATF coach
Trying to come back slowly from acute A-Fib
John Hirsch
May 2, 12 12:28
Post #86 of 92
(802 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [M~]
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I see the back of the race when I lap them. Its really scary to see the large groups. My point isn't that IMLP isn't crowded, just that its safer than all the others. Its hilly, which breaks up the packs some, its got a closed course, so your mixing in cars to this problem like most other course and its got a shoulder so you can find room. at IMLOU I had to ride over the yellow line with on coming cars and when not passing huge groups I got no shoulder to let cars behind me go by while the cars are also trying to dodge other cyclists. IMLP has doesn't have any realy tight and windy roads unlike Lou which caused another entire host of issues.
Don't get me wrong, I support your point: 1/2 the people is better. I did the race in 2000 and it was better (the swim too) but thats not really a LP issue, its every big race issue.
http://www.johnhirsch.org
Fleck
May 2, 12 12:56
Post #87 of 92
(786 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [John Hirsch]
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Its the experiences, the history, and the people involved that trump the current "logic" of putting the event on. Kona is a great example of that. Its Kona. Its Kona because its Kona. A great arguement could be made to move Kona, and people have. But to a lot of people (including me) Kona is a happening.
John,
Well said. There are many things about Kona that make absolutely no sense, but it still goes on and the WTC still keeps putting it on there. I respect and applaud them for that. There is no question that it's a classic event in the world of endurance sports and it's a happening!
It's the same thing for some of the now older IM venues. The big single loops at IMC come to mind - it costs them a lot more money to do that, and a great deal more work. Some of that does not make sense, but personally, I hope they keep it like that. It gives that race a distinct feeling.
Steve Fleck
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Record10Carbon
May 2, 12 13:06
Post #88 of 92
(775 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [John Hirsch]
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Quote:
IMLP hughly surpasses the income that the town gets from anything else.
I think that yearly ski season does them pretty well.
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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
prattzc
May 2, 12 17:22
Post #89 of 92
(727 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [R10C]
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Really?? Guess you didn't go up this year.
http://www.teamprattz.com/
Record10Carbon
May 2, 12 17:25
Post #90 of 92
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Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [prattzc]
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No, I did not. First year in a couple of years that I was not out in UPNY with ChrisG and his family skiing.
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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
prattzc
May 2, 12 17:38
Post #91 of 92
(712 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [R10C]
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Really bad year. Most resorts blew their budgets by February. Vermont was hurting. I have to assume placid felt it worse. Not to mention gore.
Funny, I never skied with Gleason as an adult, only high school, where he was a giant to me. Guess he still is.
He caught me and passed me at mile 3 of imlp last year. I thought for sure he had Kona in the bag.
Lake placid will always be special, With or without wtc. I'm sure most of us will get together at the brewery and swim mirror and climb whiteface and play chicken down Keene (screw that damn run though).
Like most races, it got over crowded. Like most of society, the participants became more self absorbed.
I ran long today and not one person smiled or waved back to me. Humanity is dying. At least a few of us should try to get together to remember why we do this.
Placid has to be hurting for economy, they will play ball. Maybe toughen up negotiations, but they will stick with it for awhile longer.
http://www.teamprattz.com/
Record10Carbon
May 2, 12 17:43
Post #92 of 92
(707 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [prattzc]
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We are getting old my friend. More and more like my grandfather I suppose. I too miss the "Good old days" - and I was never going to be one of those "remember when" fools.
I did find out today that Chris died. I had no idea. I was curious why he had stopped mailing me. He and I were in constant contact for years. Friends on and off the forum. I missed a lot. Missing his funeral is one of my big regrets for today.
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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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