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Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid
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gregn
May 1, 12 12:27
Post #26 of 92
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Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [Fleck]
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"The current generation of triathletes and IM participants in particular, are very different than the core group from 10 -15 years ago. The races are also much bigger, and require far more volunteers. There is more a family element to the races now and more spectators. Road closures, permits and policing costs are significantly higher. The "perfect" IM race venue is different now."
I could not agree more...well said and on the money.
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npage148
May 1, 12 12:36
Post #27 of 92
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Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [RandyS]
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RandyS wrote:
Slightly off topic but I don't think LP is an ideal place for an IM. I loved the race but I hated getting bent over by that town and being surrounded by anxious triathletes all sporting shorts & compression socks. Hotels require 4-5 night minimums and charge 2x the typical rate (reserved a year in advance with a significant non-refundable deposit).
This is the most common complaint I see about LP but it's not unique to LP, it's a characteristic of ANY tourist town. They take care of the locals and make their money from tourists when able to while being mildy hostile to their presence. If racers did not like this they wouldn't come to race it but every year it sells out and the town does what it can to maximize profits over that week (Free market FTW). It's the same in LP, as it is in Saratoga during track season, Manchester VT during ski season, and Lake George during boating season.
Really you need to get to a mid sized city before you start to see these issues disappear
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devashish_paul
May 1, 12 12:38
Post #28 of 92
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Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [dsmallwood]
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dsmallwood wrote:
it would be an interesting test case for many theories:
1) a town can get sick of triathletes.
I know, I know, we're adorable. but there is a lot of grousing in LP. Perhaps a majority of a town's population could decide to kick out a paying Customer.
the hotel and restaurant owners will say "NO", but there are a lot of people in LP who like small time country living.
I say no way. money wins.
2) the WTC is invincible.
The WTC could read their own press releases, look at their recent history, and take their circus elsewhere. I’m not saying they’d give up the event, but there are a lot of ski towns that could use the summer business. Ironman Stowe or Ironman Killington could work. Maybe Ironman Hunter Mountain (HITS is dead).
I say maybe. big gamble though.
3) any company could put on this event.
The good folks of Lake Placid could decide that its "imLP" and not the other way around. They could do an end-run around the WTC and sign a deal with Rev3 or Challenge or TriStar. That would be an exciting decision. It lets us test some other theories too, such as
4) the Rev3 lovers really do love Rev3.
Would all the people who talk up Rev3 sign up for the LP event if Mike Reilly wasn’t there?
5) the WTC haters really do hate the WTC.
Would all the people who avoid IMLP or do it but complain … would they still sign up if Mike Reilly isn’t there? Its 2,800 participants, they can’t all be going for the 50 Kona spots … perhaps a ChallengeLP would be a big hit.
Many good points by you and Fleck and a few others.
LP was perfect in 1999 with 1000 people. It was pretty well perfect up to the point that it exceeded 1400. After that, event out grew the town in terms of
race infrastructure
race week
the entire summer leading up to the race
LP can no longer handle a WTC size Ironman without it being a major burden on the community opposers who don't want 2800 athletes and families there. When it was 1000-1400 people it was the right balance for the community between money making and messing up the lives of locals every summer. Now the balance has gone the other way.
It would be a good case study to see if WTC pulls out and Challenge or Rev 3 comes in if 1000-1200 people sign up. 1000-1200 is plenty for many race organizations to make good money.
Right now, WTC has the upper card, given that they can go anywhere AND the half of the town that does not want the race is not helping the half of the town that does want the race.
As an aside the race intrudes into many of the surrounding communities who draw zero economic benefit from the race (close to zero), but lots of hassles.
Ironman Lake Placid has been a very positive influence on my life and many in my community of Ottawa. We get all the benefits of an almost local race without the hassles. The locals at LP get the hassles, although they have the upside benefits of revenue flowing into their community.
So all this to say, I am sure that Brian Delaney and some of the guys from the local sports community could pull in Rev3 or Challenge to put on an Ironman event wtih a cap of say 1200-1500. This would probably fly at the Town of North Elba (which I believe is the technical name of the town that contains the village of Lake Placid....yes...VILLAGE is part of its title).
If a Rev3 or Challenge Lake Placid cannot sell out 1200 participants, then all you WTC haters on ST will have lost some credibility :-)
Dev
10x IMLP finisher, 20xWTC Ironman finisher :-)
Dev
cannondale.com |infinitnutrition.ca | bushtukah.com
Whiteface Hill Climb + Epicman Lake Placid 3k/180k/21k June 6/7 2013, Epicman Tremblant 10k/260k/42.2k 11-13 July 2013
Record10Carbon
May 1, 12 12:44
Post #29 of 92
(1365 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [devashish_paul]
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Ahhh...the good old days. Getting to LP right as the two stroke odor of the Great Outdoor Games left town.
I agree, 99, 00, 01 were not at all the same as after that. Plus, Black Bear burnt down. LP for the most part does not want us there (until we are gone). There are as you know not enough rooms and on and on. Certainly not helped by the fact that WTC books every damn room they can a year in advance (a practice of price gouging that more than one hotel is now keen on). We even in 2004 or so got special race week menus with special race week prices at most of the places to eat.
Would I go back? I plan to...I do think however that the ball is in the court of Lake Placid. WTC has far too much at stake with the namesake. Hell, they already lost Pencinton - and what is the hardest race to get into short of Kona?
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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
Rambler
May 1, 12 12:51
Post #30 of 92
(1353 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [M~]
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Lake Placid is a pretty classic location. I'd love to see an independent set up "Ironrace Lake Placid" and watch WTC go ape-shit.
Record10Carbon
May 1, 12 12:56
Post #31 of 92
(1348 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [Rambler]
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It could never happen. WTC is good at one thing.....contracts. They sue everyone and everything that has anything to do with anything as relating to Iron this and that. I am shocked that you can "Iron" your pants with out paying them a royalty.
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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
Fleck
May 1, 12 12:59
Post #32 of 92
(1343 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [devashish_paul]
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Dev,
Good points.
You only touched on this briefly, but it's not just race week, because so many of the participants to IMLP now live within a reasonable drive, many go there to train on the course from near the end of May through to close to race week in big and small groups, and formal and informal training camps. So more good economic news overall, but the down side is that more than a few of these training triathletes bring some of their annoying attitude, bad cycling skills along with them.
A friend of mine who is a very accomplished road cyclist had never been to LP before, but was there on a business conference about a month before IMLP, a couple of years ago. He was appalled and embarrassed by what he saw going on, on the roads in town and out further on the bike course.
And this is not new. 10 years ago when I was down there helping out at a training camp, I had stopped at the entrance to out-and-back, and I was going into the general store there to get some water. I passed a woman as I walked in the store. I stopped and held the door for her, but then as she passed by me, I heard her say under her breath, "Fucking cyclists". So that negative attitude amongst some/many locals was starting a long time ago and the onslaught that is, all the trainers on the course and of course race week itself has only increased since then.
It will be interesting to see where this all goes.
Steve Fleck
@stevefleck
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Record10Carbon
May 1, 12 13:03
Post #33 of 92
(1329 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [Fleck]
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Hell, all you need to do is go to any IM bike course. You do not need to look far to find empty gel packs, energy bar wrappers, bottles and on and on. Then there is the infamous stop sign in Wi. where the police bust folks on bikes for rolling the sign (Fitchburg?). The weekend after weekend training groups. (One I got into an argument with because the group leader had an iPod on blasting while he was in a peloton).
It is a never ending flow if freaks in spandex.
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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
Rambler
May 1, 12 13:04
Post #34 of 92
(1327 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [R10C]
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How about "Lake Placid Long Course Race"?
Fleck
May 1, 12 13:11
Post #35 of 92
(1313 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [R10C]
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I am shocked that you can "Iron" your pants with out paying them a royalty.
That's gold right there, Chip.
Post of the week, maybe the month!
Well played.
Steve Fleck
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paxfobiscum
May 1, 12 13:18
Post #36 of 92
(1296 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [Fleck]
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I was riding with some friends in Wilmington last year and we made sure we were in the edge of the road - to give access to cars passing us. It was 2 in the afternoon and there were very little cars. A pickup truck passed us and a bunch of guys inside started yelling obscenities to us with clear reference that we were training for the IM.
Except maybe for the hotels and restaurants, the locals in LP can't stand the IM participants. Time for WTC to move out...
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prattzc
May 1, 12 13:33
Post #37 of 92
(1268 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [devashish_paul]
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Nah, I'm still waiting on IM or Rev3 Lake George!!!!
More hotels, more amusement parks, more daisy dukes and arcades and mini golf, and a House of Frankenstein!!!
Think about it, what other venue could have a 1 loop area with fresh water and IMLP-like scenery???
2.4 mile fresh water "rectangle" swim course
112 mile loop around the lake (lots of history, hills, and open roads) (Mostly uphill out, downhill back)
26.2 mile run from the village to the top of NorthWest Bay and back to village (mostly uphill out, downhill back)
Not a lot of traffic, lots of room, lots to do, same weather as IMLP.
Oh yeah, I have a house in Bolton Landing to accomodate the ST gathering.
http://www.teamprattz.com/
mgalluzz
May 1, 12 13:36
Post #38 of 92
(1258 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [Bell Head]
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Ironman North Conway....
Swim in Conway Lake, an incredible 112 mile bike course (with only 4-5 traffic lights that I can remember) through the White Mountains that incorporates 3 of the most epic climbs in the northeast, and endless opportunities for the run.
Not to mention hundreds of hotels, restaurants, and attractions that are used to an influx of tourists during ski season.
Can you tell I've thought about this before?
JoeO
May 1, 12 13:40
Post #39 of 92
(1250 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [gregn]
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Back in my day, we used to have to swim uphill. Both ways.
Fleck
May 1, 12 13:43
Post #40 of 92
(1243 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [prattzc]
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Nah, I'm still waiting on IM or Rev3 Lake George!!!!
I am looking forward to being in Lake George for the first time this year, to do the Race Announcing for the
Centurion New York.
It's going to be a great weekend. I have heard a great deal about the area.
Steve Fleck
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(This post was
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Record10Carbon
May 1, 12 13:44
Post #41 of 92
(1238 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [Rambler]
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Rambler wrote:
How about "Lake Placid Long Course Race"?
That is all well and good...but when you use the terms "2.4, 112, 26.2" or any variation there of you are referencing the numbers as pertaining to Triathlon and "Iron" and WTC and on and on and on as it relates to the sport...blah blah blah....
They have to protect their copyright and trademarks - and they do it to the damn letter. That is much of the reason that 70.3 scares many RD's. Now that they have moved their licensing to the new distance there are more avenues to go down (frankly, and put RD's out of business). WTC was and is very combative with the sport on a whole and protecting their nomenclature as pertaining to racing. They do not try to buy races - they bully races. They did not want to buy Great Floridian for instance, they just put another race on in the same neighborhood and offered the community more money, effectively putting other races out of business. It is clear that I drink the Coke too - when given two cold cans on a shelf - I pick up a Coke over a "Cola" ten times out of ten.
So, will WTC start a new Iron race in NY? I doubt it. Will they buy another race? I doubt it. Will they make conditions so that the other race has limited sponsors, permits, road use, USAT backing, and install as many hurdles as possible to limit the number of participants who want to enter another race? With out doubt. That is what they did with Racine. Promise more money, in return the city and the county get a contract that there can be no other races of ANY distance within X number of miles within X number of days from the event. If not, why would LP not have the
"Lake Placid Long Tri Bonanza"
the weekend before or the weekend after, or hell - why not have it on Saturday before the NAS event?
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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
(This post was
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by R10C on May 1, 12 14:02)
Murphy'sLaw
May 1, 12 13:46
Post #42 of 92
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Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [Fleck]
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There are NO saints in Lake George.
That would be a pretty killer venue.
If'n I can figger a way to get a pass/occupy the fam for Labor Day Weekend, I'd love to do their current race(s) there.
float
,
hammer
, and
jog
Fleck
May 1, 12 13:53
Post #43 of 92
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Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [Murphy'sLaw]
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There are NO saints in Lake George.
Noted. Thank you.
As the Race Announcer, that is a key detail . . . you don't want to get the name of the town wrong!! :)
For IMLP entrants, instead of going up to LP and pissing off the locals, come and do
Centurion New York
in Lake George. It's a month out from IMLP, (June 22 - 24) and a hard 100mile ride would be the perfect thing to do! Seriously.
Don't be a lemming . . . do something different! :)
Steve Fleck
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(This post was
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prattzc
May 1, 12 14:10
Post #44 of 92
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Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [Fleck]
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Now, if we can get a safe place to swim in lake George then it would be the perfect training location.
ML, I get a pass as that's my birthday weekend.
http://www.teamprattz.com/
rhys
May 1, 12 14:28
Post #45 of 92
(1177 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [M~]
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In my opinion, the Great Lakes/Southern Ontario/East coast is just ripe for the pickings right now for IM related events.
______________
I agree, and they are trying. However, it appears to me they seem to think Muskoka is the hot bet for races with a 5i50 and 70.3 up there. Given last year they had a rush discount pricing for 70.3 and it no longer serves launch pads for Crowie and co. as it resides on same date as Vegas makes me think that race is doomed. And the history of the 5i50 series speaks for itself in other areas and for some reason, the WTC decided to stage that race in the heat of the cottage season picking the same date as the Toronto Tri Festival. Two problems there, for those not from the area, to drive home from Muskoka on a Sunday to Toronto in mid July is kind of like trying to drive through Chicago in rush hour whereas, the Toronto Triathlon festival has the same distance race for same price point right in the city.
With all do respect to the WTC given my 12 years of racing their races and the similar respect I have for the founders of the Subaru series and all the great athletes they have launched from the area (Spooner, Bentley, Bowden etc.) their recent partnering is not the greatest synch. I think they really are butchering the opportunity here; Mt. Tremblant the exception.
http://www.rhysspencer.blogspot.com/
TaxAdvantage
May 1, 12 14:39
Post #46 of 92
(1168 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [Fleck]
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Fleck wrote:
... but the down side is that more than a few of these training triathletes bring some of their annoying attitude, bad cycling skills along with them.
A friend of mine who is a very accomplished road cyclist had never been to LP before, but was there on a business conference about a month before IMLP, a couple of years ago. He was appalled and embarrassed by what he saw going on, on the roads in town and out further on the bike course.
What are the bad cycling skills and appalling, embarrassing things you mean? I"m going up there Memorial Day to ride the course and swim the loop (water temps permitting); on my own, not with a group; just want to make sure I avoid doing anything you're talking about. :)
_______________________
"I believe that I'll finish." - Herb Brown (IMLP 2012)
TriMike
May 1, 12 14:43
Post #47 of 92
(1162 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [R10C]
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There is a pretty nice "Iron distance" IM here in Sonoma "County called Vineman. Interesting thing is that they put on the Ironman Vineman 70.3 as well (which sold out in 10 minutes this year) but also their own IM race. It is the oldest IM distance race in North America and has a very old school vibe. It is the only IM I will do any more...and bike course goes nearly right by my house! It never ceases to amaze me how the sheep keep pouring $ in the deep pockets of Providence Equity...(FKA "WTC")
rhys
May 1, 12 14:44
Post #48 of 92
(1159 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [Fleck]
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Fleck,
I spent 3 summers on Madeline Island in Wisconsin. This is a town of 400 in winter, 5000 in summer. The whole economy for locals is the big money that comes in from the twin cities and Chicago every summer.
With that context at hand, ie: in 3 months locals make enough to bank for 12, every labor day we partied like it was our last night on earth because they were all going home!!!! It was surreal, like "thanks for the livelihood, now fuck off!"
I remember that vividly and walked away thinking in my career to be sure I never, ever...bite the hand that feeds me!
Lake Placid is built on tourism. They need to have a serious think and assess, is our tourist season winter as it has been for 80 years, or 12 months a year. I bet the latter. Business always wins. Just follow the money.
I love it there. The riding is spectacular and amazingly, especially OFF THE IM COURSE, there are just incredible roads. Mirror lake is the best. And the accomodations are rustic. It really is an amazing training spot....(I think I just sold myself on a summer trip-:))
http://www.rhysspencer.blogspot.com/
tri_yoda
May 1, 12 15:16
Post #49 of 92
(1140 views)
Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [monty]
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monty wrote:
You want to know where the perfect place to have an ironma is, just about anywhere. Except maybe st. george of course. Look at the last two races they added, texas and new york. SOld out in minutes and at higher prices. Lake placid has no juice in this relationship, except that it is a hassle to put on a new race somewhere. They would like to keep the race i'm sure(WTC), but there are a 1000 other cities that would take it and sell out immediately.
Have you ever been to Lake Placid?
NYC is not exactly anywhere.
IMTX has no history at this point. When it sells out for 15 straight years, come back and tell us how any IM anywhere is the same as LP.
I think IMLP is probably one of the easiest IM races to stage in term of traffic management. I think Lake Placid could easily draw 2000 people for an non WTC event (Challenge or Rev3), so I don't see WTC as having the upper hand.
tri_yoda
May 1, 12 15:20
Post #50 of 92
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Re: Who has more leverage in this negotiation? WTC vs Lake Placid [Bell Head]
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Bell Head wrote:
dsmallwood wrote:
Ironman Stowe or Ironman Killington could work.
I don't think there is any place to swim at either location. But IM Burlington would be interesting.
Burlington would be the logical place to go if WTC lost Lake Placid. Probably equally as good a venue or better in many respects.
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