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Which bike has the most flexible cockpit?
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I'm in the market for a new bike. I'm trying to decide between the following 6 bikes:

1. Shiv S-works
2. Speed Concept
3. Scott Plasma
4. Cervelo P5
5. Cervelo P3
6. Felt IA FRD

Which of these 6 bikes are going to give me the most flexibility in the cockpit? The LBS said that he would recommend the P3 over the P5 because it has a more adjustable cockpit.

How would you rank the above bikes by the adjustability of the cockpit?

Do any of theses bikes standout as superior or inferior to the others in the group?

Thank you in advance for your input.

Michael
Last edited by: NewbieTri100: Sep 11, 17 20:01
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Re: Which bike has the most flexible cockpit? [NewbieTri100] [ In reply to ]
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Reordered
2. Speed Concept
5. Cervelo P3
6. Felt IA FRD
4. Cervelo P5

1. Shiv S-works
3. Scott Plasma

Speed concept has a massive fit range, though it is not simple to achieve. P3 is the most versatile because you can choose the bar that works best for you
I'd go the P3 for ease of use, adjustability and because you have more $ room to optimise other parts


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Re: Which bike has the most flexible cockpit? [NewbieTri100] [ In reply to ]
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How sure are you of your fit coordinates? Do you require a lot of flexibility because you're unsure of your position?

Jim Manton / ERO Sports / ERO Insight

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: Which bike has the most flexible cockpit? [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
How sure are you of your fit coordinates? Do you require a lot of flexibility because you're unsure of your position?

This. Seems to me (to paraphrase Dan Slowman), you're shopping for shoes by asking which pair come with the longest laces. Instead of going to the store, getting your feet measured, taking the advice of the assistant and trying some on.
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Re: Which bike has the most flexible cockpit? [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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cyclenutnz wrote:
Reordered
2. Speed Concept
5. Cervelo P3
6. Felt IA FRD
4. Cervelo P5

1. Shiv S-works
3. Scott Plasma

Speed concept has a massive fit range, though it is not simple to achieve. P3 is the most versatile because you can choose the bar that works best for you
I'd go the P3 for ease of use, adjustability and because you have more $ room to optimise other parts

Agree. I bought a p5-three frame for that purpose, such that I could just take the cockpit from my old bike. Since it seems that the p5 three is discontinued, a p3 would be a good choice.
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Re: Which bike has the most flexible cockpit? [NewbieTri100] [ In reply to ]
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The P3 will offer plenty of flexibility but keep in mind the really nice cockpits add quite a bit to the price of the bike. I always have a hard time justifying spend 1000$ Or more for a bar and stem and once you cut the steer tube you have lost some adjustability. If you go this way I suggest getting a pedestaled bar rather than clip-on which makes height adjustment easy and separates the base bar height from the aerobar. I also use ETap, so I can completely change my front end configuration with 4 screws or pull thing apart to pack my bike for travel.

There are a series of articles is sizing of Speed Concept, P5... on the front page. I really like the Speed Concept, especially if you use the mono extension that allows you to use your own extentions. Different stem heights and lengths, pedestals, angle, width and fore-aft adjustment.
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Re: Which bike has the most flexible cockpit? [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
How sure are you of your fit coordinates? Do you require a lot of flexibility because you're unsure of your position?


Jim,

I've been professional fit for a tri bike. My stack is 54 and my reach is 38.5.

I've been riding a Shiv for the past 4 years. I'm happy with it but I'm looking for an excuse to go a different direction. I was hit by a car last week and my bike was totaled.
Last edited by: NewbieTri100: Sep 12, 17 7:14
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Re: Which bike has the most flexible cockpit? [NewbieTri100] [ In reply to ]
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That is a totally different question. Since you are starting from scratch and need a new group and wheels I would consider if you plan to do disc, tubeless, electric shifting, desire for integrated storage and hydration.... Any of these bikes can be sized to meet your fit coordinates, but rim brake wheels are different than disc and there is no way to upgrade frames. We are kinda at a fork in the road for some of these major design changes.
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Re: Which bike has the most flexible cockpit? [MattyK] [ In reply to ]
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MattyK wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
How sure are you of your fit coordinates? Do you require a lot of flexibility because you're unsure of your position?


This. Seems to me (to paraphrase Dan Slowman), you're shopping for shoes by asking which pair come with the longest laces. Instead of going to the store, getting your feet measured, taking the advice of the assistant and trying some on.

Matt,

I've been professionally fit several times. My stack is 54 and my reach is 38.5. I'm not very flexible but I'm working on changing that. In the past, as I have become more flexible and more comfortable riding in aero, the fitter was able to lower my position while still maintaining my power and comfort.

Regards,

Michael
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Re: Which bike has the most flexible cockpit? [NewbieTri100] [ In reply to ]
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what is the difference between these two 2017 QR PR5s, besides color, and the crankset and shift system? then let's talk.





Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Sep 12, 17 8:21
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Re: Which bike has the most flexible cockpit? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:
That is a totally different question. Since you are starting from scratch and need a new group and wheels I would consider if you plan to do disc, tubeless, electric shifting, desire for integrated storage and hydration.... Any of these bikes can be sized to meet your fit coordinates, but rim brake wheels are different than disc and there is no way to upgrade frames. We are kinda at a fork in the road for some of these major design changes.


My prior bike had SRAM red components with eTap. The wheel set was HED Jet Black 60/90.

eTap is my preference and I can be talked into a different wheel set but I've been happy with HED.


Michael
Last edited by: NewbieTri100: Sep 12, 17 8:52
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Re: Which bike has the most flexible cockpit? [NewbieTri100] [ In reply to ]
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NewbieTri100 wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
How sure are you of your fit coordinates? Do you require a lot of flexibility because you're unsure of your position?


Jim,

I've been professional fit for a tri bike. My stack is 54 and my reach is 38.5.

I've been riding a Shiv for the past 4 years. I'm happy with it but I'm looking for an excuse to go a different direction. I was hit by a car last week and my bike was totaled.
I ride a Shiv. It has the short top tube and tall head tube that I need. If your Shiv fits well and you're all hot to get something different, be wary of getting a conventional "long and low" geometry bike because that's very different from your Shiv.

"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Which bike has the most flexible cockpit? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
what is the difference between these two 2017 QR PR5s, besides color, and the crankset and shift system? then let's talk.

I'd be lying if I said that I could tell the difference besides the obvious. I know just enough to be dangerous and rely on resources such as my bike fitter, the LBS, and sites like this one before I make major bike purchases.

My LBS said that he doesn't know anyone that is happy with the P5 because the aero bars are too narrow and can't be adjusted. He recommends the P3 or P5X or the Speed Concept.

I had to widen the aero bar pads on my Shiv so his comments concern me.

I posted my original question regarding which cockpits are the most configurable because it took serval visits to the fitter before I got the right fit. I don't want to lose the flexibility and the ability for the fitter to tinker with my setup.
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Re: Which bike has the most flexible cockpit? [NewbieTri100] [ In reply to ]
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NewbieTri100 wrote:
Slowman wrote:
what is the difference between these two 2017 QR PR5s, besides color, and the crankset and shift system? then let's talk.


I'd be lying if I said that I could tell the difference besides the obvious. I know just enough to be dangerous and rely on resources such as my bike fitter, the LBS, and sites like this one before I make major bike purchases.

My LBS said that he doesn't know anyone that is happy with the P5 because the aero bars are too narrow and can't be adjusted. He recommends the P3 or P5X or the Speed Concept.

I had to widen the aero bar pads on my Shiv so his comments concern me.

I posted my original question regarding which cockpits are the most configurable because it took serval visits to the fitter before I got the right fit. I don't want to lose the flexibility and the ability for the fitter to tinker with my setup.

there is a notable difference in the two bikes i show above in the context of this thread.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Which bike has the most flexible cockpit? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
NewbieTri100 wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
How sure are you of your fit coordinates? Do you require a lot of flexibility because you're unsure of your position?


Jim,

I've been professional fit for a tri bike. My stack is 54 and my reach is 38.5.

I've been riding a Shiv for the past 4 years. I'm happy with it but I'm looking for an excuse to go a different direction. I was hit by a car last week and my bike was totaled.

I ride a Shiv. It has the short top tube and tall head tube that I need. If your Shiv fits well and you're all hot to get something different, be wary of getting a conventional "long and low" geometry bike because that's very different from your Shiv.

Ranger,

I agree with you. "Long and low" does not fit my body type. I was under the impression that the geometry of the P5 deviated from their "long and low" tradition. Am I mistaken? I reviewed some of the bike geometries and the Felt seems to have a similar geometry as the Shiv.

The obvious question is if I've been happy with the Shiv, why change? If it's not broken, don't fix it right :)

The short answer is that I feel the Shiv is a little long in the tooth. There hasn't been any advances/changes in 5 years. It's my perception that the other bike manufacturers have caught up and even passed Specialized. Honesty, I was hoping that Specialized would release a new tri bike at Kona this year but i've been told that's not the case.

Regards,

Michael
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Re: Which bike has the most flexible cockpit? [NewbieTri100] [ In reply to ]
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NewbieTri100 wrote:
RangerGress wrote:
NewbieTri100 wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
How sure are you of your fit coordinates? Do you require a lot of flexibility because you're unsure of your position?


Jim,

I've been professional fit for a tri bike. My stack is 54 and my reach is 38.5.

I've been riding a Shiv for the past 4 years. I'm happy with it but I'm looking for an excuse to go a different direction. I was hit by a car last week and my bike was totaled.

I ride a Shiv. It has the short top tube and tall head tube that I need. If your Shiv fits well and you're all hot to get something different, be wary of getting a conventional "long and low" geometry bike because that's very different from your Shiv.


Ranger,

I agree with you. "Long and low" does not fit my body type. I was under the impression that the geometry of the P5 deviated from their "long and low" tradition. Am I mistaken? I reviewed some of the bike geometries and the Felt seems to have a similar geometry as the Shiv.

The obvious question is if I've been happy with the Shiv, why change? If it's not broken, don't fix it right :)

The short answer is that I feel the Shiv is a little long in the tooth. There hasn't been any advances/changes in 5 years. It's my perception that the other bike manufacturers have caught up and even passed Specialized. Honesty, I was hoping that Specialized would release a new tri bike at Kona this year but i've been told that's not the case.

Regards,

Michael
Your justification for buying a new bike seems kinda weak. This isn't criticism, it's a road well traveled. Heck, I live on that road.

My suggestion would be to play around with ideas short of replacing a frame that fits you. Get a new set of bars or put etap on your bike. Fool around with power by getting a new crank or pedals.

I bought 4 sets of used bars off of ebay in the last 4 months before I finally decided I didn't like any of them as much as I liked the same HED bars I've had for >10yrs. But it took me all those other bars to really appreciate what I already had.

Etap. Power crank or pedals. Oval chain rings. All these are interesting ideas to try that will satiate your desire for something new, w/o changing the one thing that really fits you.

But if you really want a new bike and are looking at QR, check out their "Fit" series. My perception is that their geometry resembles the Shiv more closely than the other QR bikes. I don't see them as a step up tho. IMO, the Shiv is a superbike with a conventional front. Personally, I like the conventional front. It allows you to install any kind of cockpit and it's easy to remove/reinstall for packing.

"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: Which bike has the most flexible cockpit? [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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cyclenutnz wrote:
Reordered
2. Speed Concept
5. Cervelo P3
6. Felt IA FRD
4. Cervelo P5

1. Shiv S-works
3. Scott Plasma

Speed concept has a massive fit range, though it is not simple to achieve. P3 is the most versatile because you can choose the bar that works best for you
I'd go the P3 for ease of use, adjustability and because you have more $ room to optimise other parts
I'd pretty much agree with this, and would add a detail that SpeedConcept with electronic shifting and the Universal Monoextension is surely the winner. Electronic shifting means no rerouting shift cables, and the universal monoextension makes a lot more things possible with the extensions and makes them even easier to adjust.
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Re: Which bike has the most flexible cockpit? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
what is the difference between these two 2017 QR PR5s, besides color, and the crankset and shift system? then let's talk.

OP, I think this is a serious question.

The carbon fiber version of this aerobar is a completely different beast than the aluminum version. The aluminum T4 has an older style mounting bracket that doesn't adjust much and doesn't pedestal (at least I don't think so.) That bracket came on my 2012 tri bike and I sold it for a Zipp Alumina right away. The carbon fiber T4 uses the J5 bracket which Dan has praised on the front page in the past. Mucho carbon fiber T4 adjustability vs the aluminum T4, but essentially the same bike. Thus, the notion to buy a model of bike based on fit adjustability seems a little silly.

Profile Design, why on Earth wouldn't you include the J5 bracket with your aluminum extensions? It's not like they aren't already metal. And the F19 pad sucks. And you darn kids get off my lawn.
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Re: Which bike has the most flexible cockpit? [dangle] [ In reply to ]
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dangle wrote:
Profile Design, why on Earth wouldn't you include the J5 bracket with your aluminum extensions? It's not like they aren't already metal. And the F19 pad sucks. And you darn kids get off my lawn.

i have already told PD to get its J2 brackets off my lawn. i have no doubt they're committed to that. my only concern is this: at some point PD has to stop innovating long enough to say, "this is the bracket and the pad we're mating to aluminum extensions", bring it to the OE market, bring it to the entry level ($139, $149) aftermarket, and deliver it to distributors and bike makers.

PD, at the high end, is way out there. it's leading the pack. but as far as i'm concerned the J4/F35 combo is fine. the J5/F40 combo is fine. i just need to stop seeing the J2 on tri bikes. that uses the same basic tech as felt's bar. there are so many things wrong with that tech compared to the current J4/J5 tech.

so, yes, there are issues behind the scenes, sell-thru of old inventory, lead times, etc., but at a certain point i'm going to be writing about cervelo and QR - which are the two leaders right now in the entry-level, $2,500-price, tri bikes - that i wrote about cannondale's slice last year (don't buy this bike unless you are also willing to buy a new aerobar to immediately put on it).


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Which bike has the most flexible cockpit? [dangle] [ In reply to ]
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dangle wrote:

Profile Design, why on Earth wouldn't you include the J5 bracket with your aluminum extensions? It's not like they aren't already metal.

The J4/J5 design costs twice as much to make as the J3/J2 ones. That wedge that holds the extensions is an expensive feature.

Things are changing at PD.


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Re: Which bike has the most flexible cockpit? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"this is the bracket and the pad we're mating to aluminum extensions", bring it to the OE market, bring it to the entry level ($139, $149) aftermarket, and deliver it to distributors and bike makers.

Have you looked at your skype today??

Quote:
PD, at the high end, is way out there. it's leading the pack. but as far as i'm concerned the J4/F35 combo is fine. the J5/F40 combo is fine.

Except the J5/F40TT has 9 times as many possible configurations. So the J4/F35 is not fine by my standard

Quote:
but at a certain point i'm going to be writing about cervelo and QR - which are the two leaders right now in the entry-level, $2,500-price, tri bikes - that i wrote about cannondale's slice last year (don't buy this bike unless you are also willing to buy a new aerobar to immediately put on it).

Both Cervelo and QR eschew the J2 in favour of a special makeup bar that has the J4/F35 with an alloy extension. Which is a good choice IMO. So they're a long way from sinking to the level of Cannondale with that terrible R-Bend.


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Re: Which bike has the most flexible cockpit? [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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 i have not looked at my skype but will. i'm certain what you have in the works is better than J4/F35, much better. but the two QR bikes above, the difference is J2 versus J4, if my eyes don't deceive. i'm just saying the J4, J5, J5.5 or J6 or whatever you're working on is in one genus, and the J2 is in another. i don't want the pad mounting on the extension. and i want the wedge mechanism securing the extension. everything J4 and up gives me that.

what i want is to get the J4 or newer on all new tri bikes and i need to find some way to bribe, threaten, entreat, coerce, sweet-talk, fool, convince, exhort bike makers into making that switch, by understanding that cannondale tanked a very good bike (the slice) just and only because it spec'd the wrong bar. best not to keep making that mistake.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Which bike has the most flexible cockpit? [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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Ranger,

I replacing my bike because it was totaled when a driver decided to run a stop sign and t-boned me last week. I'm only going through this exercise because I'm forced to. That being said, I've ridden a Shiv since 2012. 60 days ago I upgraded all the components to Red eTap.

Since I'm forced to buy a new bike, I figured why not look at what the other makers have to offer.

Regards,

Michael
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Re: Which bike has the most flexible cockpit? [dangle] [ In reply to ]
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dangle wrote:
Slowman wrote:
what is the difference between these two 2017 QR PR5s, besides color, and the crankset and shift system? then let's talk.


OP, I think this is a serious question.

The carbon fiber version of this aerobar is a completely different beast than the aluminum version. The aluminum T4 has an older style mounting bracket that doesn't adjust much and doesn't pedestal (at least I don't think so.) That bracket came on my 2012 tri bike and I sold it for a Zipp Alumina right away. The carbon fiber T4 uses the J5 bracket which Dan has praised on the front page in the past. Mucho carbon fiber T4 adjustability vs the aluminum T4, but essentially the same bike. Thus, the notion to buy a model of bike based on fit adjustability seems a little silly.

Profile Design, why on Earth wouldn't you include the J5 bracket with your aluminum extensions? It's not like they aren't already metal. And the F19 pad sucks. And you darn kids get off my lawn.

Dangle,

Thank you for your input. My intention was to by a stock bike (unless I bought a Shiv frameset) and add a power meter (likely quark). However, maybe buying a frameset and pairing it with a versatile stem/aero bar/base bar is the way to go. (Assuming it's compatible with the frame)

I haven't been in the market for a new bike in 5 years. A lot has changed since I purchased my Shiv in 2012. Just trying to make an educated decision without getting too technical.

Michael
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Re: Which bike has the most flexible cockpit? [NewbieTri100] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe I should have asked who makes the most flexible carbon cockpit and which of the following bikes are compatible with it? :)

I've been reviewing the ST stack/reach database as a start. The salespeople at the LBS seem to always say that they "can get every bike to fit me". But given my relatively short reach, I find that hard to believe. My bike fitter initially recommend the Shiv. That's why I bought it in the first place. I was just hoping I had some other alternatives since I've ridden the same bike for 5 years.

Michael
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