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Re: What happens to your threshold HR when fitness improves? [Mike Prevost] [ In reply to ]
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By a decrease in aerobic capacity, I am referring to either a decrease in pace or power production at both 4 mmol/l of lactate as well as lactate threshold, so hopefully I am choosing my words well enough to be clearly understood. As I mentioned, Olbrecht, Lydiard and others claim this to be the case and I have found it to be as well.

The takeaway point? If you're introducing a new type of training into your regimen (from base running and riding to VO2 work), you should be testing to make sure that the training is giving you the desired benefit. It's also interesting to see just how hard one needs to train to meet their goals. Without performance testing, any perceived improvement is anecdotal at best.

Here's a very interesting article: http://www.sportsci.org/2009/ss.htm
Last edited by: NiceTriCoaching: Apr 13, 12 7:25
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Re: What happens to your threshold HR when fitness improves? [NiceTriCoaching] [ In reply to ]
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Calling Lydiard a physiologist is stretching it a bit ;-)
He was a brilliant coach in my mind but not a physiologist.

This is a good example of
A physiologist knows why results happen
A coach gets the results.

There is quite a few good coaches that get good results with a reversed periodisation approach and some of them would surly not be adverse to Lydiards approach.


Olbrecht has obviously a very good science background but judging from his long list of athletes he has worked with, including some of europes top swimmer ( Pieter van den Hoogenband I think one of them) I would assume he focuses more on coaching while still working at the University in Leuven.





http://www.pb3coaching.com
Last edited by: pk: Apr 13, 12 8:29
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Re: What happens to your threshold HR when fitness improves? [NiceTriCoaching] [ In reply to ]
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now I think you contradict Lydiard when you say physiological testing is a must ;-)

http://www.pb3coaching.com
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Re: What happens to your threshold HR when fitness improves? [geodee] [ In reply to ]
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Back to your original question, I remember a Dr. Coggan anecdote about threshold HR and VO2max from a couple years ago on Wattage.

He did the same 40K TT two years in a row. During the first year, his training included more VO2max work than the second year. Both years his wattage was equal or very close for the TT, but in the second year his HR was something like 3 or 5 bpm higher. His hypothesis was that, due to more VO2max work in year 1, his stroke volume was higher.

Same threshold wattage, slightly different HR. Bottom line - what happens to your threshold HR depends on what adaptations you've gotten and what was limiting you.

If you were limited last year by your muscles' ability to to work aerobically and you had significant improvement there, your threshold HR may be higher now than it was. If you had significant cardiac hypertrophy and your stroke volume is higher, that could explain the lower HR (hence my question about your resting HR). Your weight loss also plays a role - less tissue requiring blood transport.

This is exemplary of why I love power. Am I producing more watts or more watts/kg? If so, then I'm more fit. If not, then I'm less fit, everything else being equivalent. Much simpler.
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Re: What happens to your threshold HR when fitness improves? [NiceTriCoaching] [ In reply to ]
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NiceTriCoaching wrote:
It's actually quite well-documented by physiologists such as Olbrecht, Lydiard, and the oft-ridiculed Maffetone.

Although I am not a physiologist, I can verify what these researchers claim. I have had several unplanned instances of athletes training "too hard/too often" and have seen a marked decrease in their aerobic capacity.

I would think that that example shows that they are under recovered more than anything else. It's not the training that is inhibiting them, but the lack of recovery.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: What happens to your threshold HR when fitness improves? [geodee] [ In reply to ]
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Train with power!
Watch for a drop in de-coupling.
Read Cheung and Allen's new book.
Keep training your ass off! ;)

Good luck.

-Robert

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
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Re: What happens to your threshold HR when fitness improves? [Robert] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Train with power!
Watch for a drop in de-coupling.

you started so good then it went to hell.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
twitter & IG = @accelerate3
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Re: What happens to your threshold HR when fitness improves? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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You've read the story of my life? ;)

-Robert

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
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Re: What happens to your threshold HR when fitness improves? [NiceTriCoaching] [ In reply to ]
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I doubt that the average triathlete is going to do enough anaerobic work to actually see any decrease in aerobic performance. Especially considering most triathletes don't know what true anaerobic work is.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
twitter & IG = @accelerate3
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Re: What happens to your threshold HR when fitness improves? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Especially considering most triathletes don't know what true anaerobic work is.

This is definitely true!

"One Line Robert"
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Re: What happens to your threshold HR when fitness improves? [geodee] [ In reply to ]
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geodee wrote:
I thought this would be a relatively basic question, but my experiences are going against what I assumed. Googling for these terms has been unsuccessful.

I assumed that when your fitness increased, your lactate threshold would become higher because your body would become used to handling more lactic acid. Right now my fitness has never been better, but I'm noticing significant burning and increased effort when trying to maintain what I had previously calculated to be my threshold HR. For example, last year I would average 150 bpm on a longer ride, where this year I would feel like I'm putting in the same effort, but going faster, and averaging 135. Similar with run. Last year I TT'd at 178, where this year I did 161 (and again, went faster).

Could it be possible that with training, your threshold HR would go down significantly over one year? I have a few ideas.

1) I've been focusing heavily on endurance and I haven't pushed my HR high enough to maintain a high LT
2) My body is just more efficient now
3) Overtraining (which I'm leaning against, since I've been running much faster and longer than last year)
4) My recent weight loss basically tossed the rulebook out the window
5) STFU and just get some proper testing done

Now that I've typed it all out, I'm thinking 1, 2, and 4 are all contributing factors, and to just 5 after I've recovered from IMSG.

Any thoughts? :)

What was your cadence looking like throughout the efforts? I think that's going to tell you a lot as well.

My guess is that your cadence was slower in the 2nd effort, which is why your HR was lower but effort was the same...just an idea
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Re: What happens to your threshold HR when fitness improves? [jordo_99] [ In reply to ]
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They were actually done on different bikes. The first was a road bike with 165mm cranks, on a hilly course, and my average cadence was 93. The one I did last night was on my tri bike with 170mm cranks on a flat course, and my average was 99. :S You would think it would have gone the other way around!

Either way, this guessing and speculation is leaving me with more questions than answers. Maybe it *is* time for a power meter. [geodee runs off toward the classified forum]

_____________________________________________________
George Dedopoulos | @geodee | geodee.com | Team Atomica | Toronto Triathlon Club
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