Yassos are kind of stupid. If you have those in mind, you'll be great at running 800 intervals, and not much else. Besides, I believe the Yasso predictor was for marathon pace, not HM.

The best benchmark for HM pacing is a 10k.

For Half Marathons, you double your time, add 10 minutes, then work out the 800 time based on that. E.g. a 1:30 half marathon time would be worked out as:
2 x 1.30 = 3hr,
3 hr + 10 min = 3.10
800m Yasso pace = 3:10 (which equates to 3.48 for 1 kms)

So pretty close to the VDot target time (3.48 vs 3.51)

Agree the 10km is a good benchmark, hence the 30 to 40 min run at race pace 2 weeks out.

So maybe another way of looking at it my 40 min run 2 weeks out is the best indicator (or make a 10km instead), but the Yasso, or VDots are good target times for the training. Still, I'm assuming if I'm running 4.05 kmh pace for 800s instead of Vdot's 3.51 pace, I'm probably unlikely to hit my target time.

I think you are still looking at Yasso's backwards. At best, you can use a Yasso test as a way to gauge your marathon (or HM) fitness. The correlation only exists if you take someone training for the long race, and surprise them with the Yasso test.

If you specifically train for those 800's, you will run them super fast, but that doesn't say anything for your endurance fitness.

Re 10k benchmark: Normally, when plans say "30-40 minutes at race pace", they intend you to run those at the pace you are shooting for in your main race (HM pace). The best way to benchmark your fitness for HM is a 10k race at 10k race pace. Unless you are elite, you will have a very hard time running 10k at 10k race pace as a training run, and so you would be better off finding a 10k race. Besides, a little more race experience always helps to keep from going out to fast and blowing up later on.

Good point on using a 10km race. My tri club has some of these during winter so I'll check out if any are suitable time wise, or if any actual races are on.

For the Yasso's, Barts plan suggests you can start at a lesser amount and build up. So part fitness indicator, and part interval workout build.

Of note, I am getting in other runs incl the standard weekly long run of 16 - 25km runs (trying to build run endurance for HIMs hence the over distance)

My understanding of the vDot times in terms of training is that they arent targets. You take your latest result, get a vDot and associated paces and then train according to those paces. Proper training at those paces should mean that the next time you run your HM or 10km or whatever you will be faster

Thats my understanding as well for VDot. I'm basing my target race pace of other factors and am pretty close at a race a year ago anyway. I guess the logical question is how much faster you are likely to run based on the VDot training times. Allot of variables, like how long in between races etc, but if you race, then use the VDot calculators and base your training off the proposed times, how much better are you expected to be?

I wouldnt think you could ever get an answer to that to suit everyone. Would depend so much on genetics, the type of training you're doing etc I think.

For example if genetically you were a gifted runner but hadnt really done much running before your expected improvement would be significant compared to someone who wasnt genetically gifted.

Wish I had an answer to this question. I havent run many HMs but I've come close to breaking 90min so I think I can go sub 90 but how much below? No idea. I guess in this case maybe the 10km TT is best. If you can hold x pace for a 10km maybe you should be able to run y for a HM with the right training?

interesting, and maybe apropos of nothing, i've found that 800s are better half-marathon training than marathon training. in the past when i've relied more heavily on 800s as my bread-and-butter track workout, i've been in solid half shape but faded at the full distance.

you're getting some different opinions here, but for my money some variation of the yasso 800s is good value. as a general rule, i'd say stick religiously to your pace. if they get easy, add more repeats or shorten the rest interval, but get to a place where you can click off that 800 pace like clockwork.

-mike

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I think you are missing those longer, sustained runs that make you strong for the half marathon. With the training plan you outlined, I see you being strong through 5-8 miles, and then hitting a big fat brick wall because you're not used to going that fast for that long. Are you running any 60-90 minute tempo effort runs (or longer aerobic runs with tempo/cruise intervals)? In my mind, those kinds of runs, plus consistent, every day accumulation of miles are the bread-and-butter of the half marathon.

Throw some open run times into the Mcmillan calculator and use it to figure your marathon pace.... if your adequately trained and don't overbike, you 70.3 run is your marathon pace. Running a open 1/2 marathon is a great benchmark as are 5k's and 10k's. the more data points you have, the better guess you can make. Or similarly, throw you Olympic distance run pace in to estimate an open 1/2 marathon time and work it that way.

After you've done all that. Realize the even AG on the pointy in can be all over the place. Could run 1:19 one time and 1:26 another and if they blow-up, limp home in 1:30-1:35. The run, obviously, is where you'll find out if you're ON or OFF and where you find out if you paced the bike well or overbiked. Usually 2/3rds to 3/4 through the bike you know if you're going to have a breakthrough, good, OK, or a really bad day.


For the triathlete, faster paced running needs to be done so carefully. Unlike a runner you DO NOT need tempo run for cardio benefit. You have 2-3x the aerobic base of a runner to start due to threshold bike and swim efforts. You do need to improve you specific muscle fatigue resistance. Lots of easy miles, surprisingly, when combined with cycling fatigue, are a effective way to create this stimulus. Throw in 1 quality run workout a week to sharpen you form...and because it's fun, and you'll be in good shape with low risk.

Guys that can do more quality runs either 1) have really good run mechanics and can handle a lot of run volume 2) are former elite runners and probably suck at swimming, so they need all the run speed they can get 3) get injured regularly, figure that's normal and are always playing catch-up on their training all season. (or see #1) 4) have never tried not going quality runs and assume they are needed because they have success doing them.

All that being said, if you've plateaued, then you need a different approach to get that next bit of marginal gains. But NEVER, EVER trade quality for consistency. If I could take back the 1 dumb workout i did back in Jan, I'd have more run and bike fitness than I have now. I foolishly combined long with tempo and tried to throw some longer tempo intervals into a 16mi run, worse, I did it while highly fatigued near the end of a training block.

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My best 1/2 times came during or after marathon training. I never specifically trained for a 1/2 using any plan. The majority of my "speed" work consisted of tempo runs ranging from 3 - 7 miles in the middle of the training plan, 600 - 800 intervals toward the tail end of the training plan and 4 - 8 100 meter strides mixed into my typical runs throughout the training plan. If I hit all my mileage, I was very well prepared to run just about any distance race.

Was I ideally prepped? Probably not. But I usually set (or reset) PR's in all distances after a solid marathon training block. Quality mileage is key.

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Rick, "Retired" hobbyist athlete
Trying to come back slowly from acute A-Fib

well, a yasso workout gets you like 6 miles of running with some good intensity, which would you know, both increase the size of your aerobic engine and help to improve your running economy.

which would, you know, make you faster at running over any duration.

(as would, any other workout where you run a bit)

as for predicting marathon time though, definitely not.

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I think that once a week you ought to have a workout that includes 30-40 minutes at close to your tempo pace. If you can hold your Vdot T pace and not fade at the end of a 2x20' (3' easy jog between) tempo session, you'll know that you are in a good place to hit your projected hm pace. You can mix it up and maybe do something like 6x1 mile @Tempo pace-:05 seconds w/1' easy jog between if you want some variety.

As far as the 800s, the problem with them is that they are a little too long for a speed workout, and a little too short for a VO2 max workout. Try 1200s@ your I pace with 3-4 minutes rest between. If you can do 4 of them at your I pace for a Vdot, the Vdot is probably pretty accurate.

I PR'd a HM (1:20) last spring while doing IM and half IM training. I had weekly long runs up to around 16 miles prior to the HM in May with up to 10 of those miles run close to goal HIM pace. I would alternate 1 mile easy with 2 miles at 6:15ish pace. My longest run was 5x that cycle with an easy mile at the end.

For a target time of around 1:30 I'd do that type of run with the 2 miles (or say 3k for metric) around a 6:50 mile pace.

Total volume and including close to race pace runs are crucial. 800's, not so much.

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I have found this to be WAY too simplistic and not even close to accurate (much like Yasso 800s). There are just too many variables involved. I've run the half in a 70.3, without being passed, and have never been within 10 seconds of my marathon pace...and have been as much as 45 off (and the 45 off was probably my strongest run of them all). I think open run times can only predict open run times and for that...the McMillian calculator is quite good.

I think you and I are on the same page, but you may have slightly misunderstood my point.

My issue with Yasso's are that you can either use them for training for marathon prediction...not both. If you train with 800's, you will indeed get a benefit! You will be faster. The problem is that if you are tempted to use that 800 time as a goal marathon time, a blow up is inevitable.
On the other hand, if you don't specifically train consecutive 800's, then it can somewhat be used for a predictor. The correlation is kinda shakey, but should get you within 10 minutes or so.

It seemed like the OP wanted both...to train to run 800 intervals, then to use that time to predict his race pace. That reminds me of a video that popped up awhile back where an ex-pro triathlete Chris Henshaw started training crossfitters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sO_V5NDdcQ He has a huge guy running 2:59 800s. No way he can hit a sub-3 marathon.

You need to invert your approach for VDot based training. That, is you must train at the paces suitable for your current level of fitness, which is based on your current, not desired Vdot. Be faithful to those zones, and you land where you land on race day. Hopefully it is 1:2X, but working backwards from a goal time does not work, particularly with running where pushing the limits almost always ends with injuries to connective tissue (vs. just getting really. f_ing. tired. in swim/bike)
Vdot is a running-equivalent way to set your "zones" like you would in on the bike. For example you can't just say "I want my FTP to be 400W, so it's time to start banging out 3X20's @ 400W". You follow a FTP protocol and do the 5 min TT, rest then all out for 20min, multiply by .95 and your zones are your zones. For specific 1/2 training in the 90 minute range, you are looking at a really long tempo or short marathon-pace run. The duration of 800's you are describing are more VO2 max training (3-5 min) and those have value, but don't do much in allowing you to predict your 1/2 time. I'd advise way, way more tempo (like the broken 3X12 min tempos) and M-pace stuff as your "key" days, perhaps with maximum of 2 VO2 (800) sessions at the end of the period, you could do them at the end of your "rest" weeks on fresh legs. A half is a 10 mile threshold run + 3 miles of whatever you have left. FWIW, many of the guys that run 1:0X for a 1/2 do zero days in an training cycle on the track.

Hi Nick

Probably not clear in original post which only outined my speed workouts. My standard running during the week includes the following:
Monday: tempo run 9.5km at top end of z3 over rolling hills.
Weds: long run z2 with some pickups
Thurs: easy 20 min recovery (run to one o my pool sessions)
Fri: speed work day.

I feel I get the sustained effort on the Monday run. I a Keep tge tempo effort all year apar from offseason and base 1.

Cool. If you can rock the paces prescribed with a 52ish VDOT, and get some solid weekly miles, under that program I don't see how you could fail to meet your goal.
http://www.attackpoint.org/...ist=1500&vdot=52

Fair point about using vdot based on actuals - I think my target time is pretty accurate, but will do 10km as suggested by other post to validate this. Of note, my half marathon is 5 weeks it from my first half ironman. So my predicted time of 1.29 is for my straight half marathon. All my other runs are based on friel hr zones.

A different topic, but what do most people run a half at zone wise? I tend to run the straight halfs at primarily low z4 and try and crank it in last few kms. For HIMs, pretty much z3 or by feel if heart rate is skewed. For this time around for the straight half, thinking of running o pace and using the hr zone to make sure I am not cooking it early on.

I like simple, why make it so complicated. You roughly determine your threshold pace and plug it into a calculator. Validate the chart with open 5k and 1/2 mary times.

There's also the high tech method of racing and gaining experience and running by feel. If you ran a 1:26 last time and you feel good and been training well, then shoot for a 1:22 this time.

Then again, I haven't run a open marathon since 1997, so hell if I know what that pace really is.

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Fingers crossed!

Thanks for all the comments from everyone so far.