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What Happened in Boulder - J Daerr and L Griffin
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....apparently they were DQ's, and appealed it. That appeal was was upheld, and IM is reinstating their respective finish rank (2nd and 5th). Why were they DQ'd in the first place?
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Re: What Happened in Boulder - J Daerr and L Griffin [Mike Alexander] [ In reply to ]
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He was DQ'd for missing a timing mat during the run
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Re: What Happened in Boulder - J Daerr and L Griffin [Mike Alexander] [ In reply to ]
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The turnaround was very poorly marked - the accompanying bikes also told them to turn early

They ran about 100 yard short I believe
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Re: What Happened in Boulder - J Daerr and L Griffin [Mike Alexander] [ In reply to ]
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Glad to see they were vindicated. Pretty big deal to have an Ironman ruling overruled by USAT.
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Re: What Happened in Boulder - J Daerr and L Griffin [Mike Alexander] [ In reply to ]
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Mike Alexander wrote:
....apparently they were DQ's, and appealed it. That appeal was was upheld, and IM is reinstating their respective finish rank (2nd and 5th). Why were they DQ'd in the first place?

Makes me feel like I should have appealed my penalty 5 min penalty stand down penalty at mile 16 of the run at Challenge Atlantic City. Unfortunately you can't really unscramble those eggs as I actually had to stop and effectively ruined the rest of my race with the mental anguish of it. Would love to hear more about this for Griffo and Daerr. What was your source?


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Re: What Happened in Boulder - J Daerr and L Griffin [wmcc] [ In reply to ]
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This DQ would not have been overruled by USAT - it is a WTC event and that decision would have been made by WTC officials - including the Head Official on site and perhaps Jimmy R. WTC Lead official.

Graham Wilson
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Re: What Happened in Boulder - J Daerr and L Griffin [feman] [ In reply to ]
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This is what I saw on his website:
http://www.justindaerr.com/justin-daerr-1/

Over the last three months I have been involved in an official appeal with USA Triathlon regarding my disqualification of 2nd place at Ironman Boulder in June. Fellow pro Leon Griffin also filed an appeal for his 5th place disqualification at the same race. I’m pleased to share that this past Friday, September 22nd, we were both given written notice that the Appeals Panel “upholds the appeal of both Daerr and Griffin and finds that Ironman shall reinstate the results of both Applicants for the Race.”
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Re: What Happened in Boulder - J Daerr and L Griffin [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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what was the penalty for and what leads you to wanting to appeal it?

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: What Happened in Boulder - J Daerr and L Griffin [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I believe they both turned at a cone 30+ yards before the official turnaround on an out-and-back on the run. Was broad consensus among both the racers and officials that the mistake was unintentional.

Just looked on Ironman's website, and they haven't yet updated the results to show Daerr and Griffin in 2nd and 5th.
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Re: What Happened in Boulder - J Daerr and L Griffin [feman] [ In reply to ]
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feman wrote:
This DQ would not have been overruled by USAT - it is a WTC event and that decision would have been made by WTC officials - including the Head Official on site and perhaps Jimmy R. WTC Lead official.

No. Appeals go through USAT since the race was sanctioned by USAT. Once the head referee has made his decision, the national federation then handles any appeals. So, if this were a WTC race in Australia, the Tri Australia would handle the appeal, etc.

Basically, the process goes like this:
Head referee - appeal -> National Federation - appeal -> CAS.

So they first petition the head referee, who - in certain cases but not others - has standing to rule on the decision post-race. If the head referee upholds the decision (or cannot overturn it), then you file an appeal with the national federation, in this case that is USAT. If you strike out there, you can then appeal the decision to CAS, though I do not *think* CAS has to accept all cases.

In all cases, there's a fee to appeal that you get back if you win.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: What Happened in Boulder - J Daerr and L Griffin [wmcc] [ In reply to ]
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So do they claw back the prize money from the originally announced 2nd, 5th, 9th and 10th place finishers and re-distribute it according to the new results? Or do they just give money to Daerr and Griffin?

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Re: What Happened in Boulder - J Daerr and L Griffin [wmcc] [ In reply to ]
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wmcc wrote:
I believe they both turned at a cone 30+ yards before the official turnaround on an out-and-back on the run. Was broad consensus among both the racers and officials that the mistake was unintentional.

Just looked on Ironman's website, and they haven't yet updated the results to show Daerr and Griffin in 2nd and 5th.

I assume the extra 60 yards wouldn’t have changed the race result. However, I thought the course is the course and it’s still a dq. Is there some wiggle room on that or something?
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Re: What Happened in Boulder - J Daerr and L Griffin [wmcc] [ In reply to ]
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no I meant for Thomas when he said he should have appealed.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: What Happened in Boulder - J Daerr and L Griffin [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Will be interesting to see what they do regarding the prize money. One certainly hopes that WTC just gives these two their money without clawing it back from the others. I also wonder what they will do about the Kona points. It's quite late in the 2017 season to get the points now towards Kona this year. I wonder when WTC will put out a statement or correction.
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Re: What Happened in Boulder - J Daerr and L Griffin [wmcc] [ In reply to ]
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What they should do is accept the responsibility for the fuck up(WTC), pay the guys their money(without clawing back from the others) and give them their points(also without clawing back from others). That is the right thing to do.

Lets wait and see what they actually do....
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Re: What Happened in Boulder - J Daerr and L Griffin [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
what was the penalty for and what leads you to wanting to appeal it?


I had just passed 3rd place about 60 seconds before and I picked up his 3rd place lead bicyclist. The section of the course was the narrow section of the boardwalk, about the 1/4 of the normal width of the boardwalk and very crowded. Nobody had a clue a race was going on (typical weekend drunkenness) and there was now a lot of traffic from other racers on their first lap heading the opposite direction, I was on lap two and weaving every couple of seconds between typical weekend boardwalk traffic. The lead bicyclist was in front of me for 15 seconds was the call. It was an age-group ref making a call in a pro race. She was on a bike and wasn't wearing a helmet. I didn't even know she was an official but I was worried she was going to run me over on my right and felt she was impeding me. There weren't supposed to be any unofficial bikes on the race course as the police were supposed to be pulling any bikes off at least.

I talked with Jordan initially about it post race at AC. He was nice enough to give me some time and was our sort of ambassador at the time, albeit for Ironman. He suggested I see it through even though nothing could be done to rectify the situation. I almost quit triathlon that day. It was really hard on me. That year, I was at Louisville, and I have told this story partially before, but I will leave out details for libel sake. But basically I was closing in on 1st place and I was being heckled by a guy on a bike. I told him he could not ride beside me. He wasn't aiding me, he was heckling me, and I was scared to death I would get another penalty and wasting mental energy. It is my personal belief this guy was purposelessly trying to disrupt my race for obvious reasons but you will have to put that together. At one point while I am running 6:30 miles in 95 degree heat, 73 degree dew point I had to get the police involved. The guy was asked to stop by the police but blew right past him. The cops radioed to the next check point and apparently stopped him. This comes from another STer who was there and told me what happened. I lost that race by 16 seconds...

I have been overly paranoid now about it even though 99.5% of the time I travel to races alone. Three years ago at Eagleman I had to tell individual on the course she could not ride by side. I tried to do it as politely as possibly but she got overly annoyed it was clear. I also told a guy on a bike at Racine to do the same. It turns out he was the sponsorship manager for Trek bikes taking picture of his Trek athletes, providing support, etc. Lot of favors I did myself there lol...


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Last edited by: Thomas Gerlach: Sep 26, 17 14:55
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Re: What Happened in Boulder - J Daerr and L Griffin [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
So do they claw back the prize money from the originally announced 2nd, 5th, 9th and 10th place finishers and re-distribute it according to the new results? Or do they just give money to Daerr and Griffin?

Do we know that they've already paid out for the race? Knowing that an appeal was pending, they might have waited to pay out. Or they might have paid out the 2nd place finisher (prior to appeal) 3rd place prize money with the knowledge that they could simply incrementally pay him from 3rd->2nd if the appeal was unsuccessful.

I have no direct knowledge here, but if the appeals process was ongoing, I have a hard time thinking that prize money would have been paid out already. For exactly this reason.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: What Happened in Boulder - J Daerr and L Griffin [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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So what's the summary of how you feel you were 'wronged' and how that resulted in a 'cost' to you? I can't quite make sense of what you wrote.
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Re: What Happened in Boulder - J Daerr and L Griffin [rock] [ In reply to ]
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rock wrote:
So what's the summary of how you feel you were 'wronged' and how that resulted in a 'cost' to you? I can't quite make sense of what you wrote.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. This was a general problem with rules and interruption of them and then application of them. In this case an age-group ref making a call when I am not even sure this particular age-group ref was made aware of some of the nuisances that may exist in a pro race - like lead bikers. In this specific instance this lead-biker was just ahead of another racer just prior to me taking him over and he was in front of another athlete and eventual winner before that. It was unfortunately the short window after the turn-around and passing of 3rd place that I was dinged for it. I have always said, don't put it on the athletes. If the ref has a problem tell the person to move, which is how I would handle it if I was a ref and truly concerned. Fwiw, the leader had a whole parade of police escorts, lead bikers etc in front of them clearing a legitimate path, honking at pedestrians on the boardwalk etc. That was a real advantage if any, but apparently a spade wasn't a spade.

Regardless a 5 minute stand down penalty in the middle of an iron-distance marathon run is distinct disadvantage. At the moment time I was so distraught I collapsed to the crowd and never regained my composure. I was passed by 4th and 5th during the penalty. The only reason I finished 5th was the gap to the next guy was like 16 minutes before the penalty. I would have finished no worse than 3rd on the day, maybe 2nd or 1st. Instead I finished 5th so that is the cost.

After the race I found a bunch of "outside assistance" calls were made against age-groupers, almost like the were specifically targeting this race for that, which is fine I guess, but when you drive 1000 miles by yourself, the last thing you are going expect is to get is an "outside assistance" call. Not sure if the ref thought the guy was my dad or grandpa, but again, the first response should be to ask them step aside if they really have a problem.


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Re: What Happened in Boulder - J Daerr and L Griffin [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Grant.Reuter wrote:
wmcc wrote:
I believe they both turned at a cone 30+ yards before the official turnaround on an out-and-back on the run. Was broad consensus among both the racers and officials that the mistake was unintentional.

Just looked on Ironman's website, and they haven't yet updated the results to show Daerr and Griffin in 2nd and 5th.


I assume the extra 60 yards wouldn’t have changed the race result. However, I thought the course is the course and it’s still a dq. Is there some wiggle room on that or something?

If that is really all there is to it, I am surprised USAT reversed it given each athlete has the responsibility to know the course. If Tim went through it OK as the lead, why wouldn't they? Perhaps there is more to it than we know so far?

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Re: What Happened in Boulder - J Daerr and L Griffin [hadukla] [ In reply to ]
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hadukla wrote:
Grant.Reuter wrote:
wmcc wrote:
I believe they both turned at a cone 30+ yards before the official turnaround on an out-and-back on the run. Was broad consensus among both the racers and officials that the mistake was unintentional.

Just looked on Ironman's website, and they haven't yet updated the results to show Daerr and Griffin in 2nd and 5th.


I assume the extra 60 yards wouldn’t have changed the race result. However, I thought the course is the course and it’s still a dq. Is there some wiggle room on that or something?

If that is really all there is to it, I am surprised USAT reversed it given each athlete has the responsibility to know the course. If Tim went through it OK as the lead, why wouldn't they? Perhaps there is more to it than we know so far?

Yeah it seems like there is way more to this story. On Justin’s blog he said he admits to missing the timing mat because he followed a biker that turned early. So I don’t get how they could over turn it. It sucks but his fault.
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Re: What Happened in Boulder - J Daerr and L Griffin [hadukla] [ In reply to ]
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hadukla wrote:
If that is really all there is to it, I am surprised USAT reversed it given each athlete has the responsibility to know the course. If Tim went through it OK as the lead, why wouldn't they? Perhaps there is more to it than we know so far?

Yes, it is officially the athlete's responsibility to know the course but I have done two Ironman branded races where there were out and back turn arounds that were NOT marked on the race maps. One was IMoo where there is a real short out and back at about mile 2, that one would be hard to miss. The other was IM 70.3Madison where there was a short out and back that no one knew about prior to the race. I had ran that course many times prior and had there not been a volunteer there directing me to the out and back, I would have ran right by it. So yes it is the athlete's responsibility to know the course, but if it is not marked on the course map, not communicated to athletes, or if there is a last minute change to the course, I think there is some grey area there.
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Re: What Happened in Boulder - J Daerr and L Griffin [TennesseeJed] [ In reply to ]
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TennesseeJed wrote:
hadukla wrote:
If that is really all there is to it, I am surprised USAT reversed it given each athlete has the responsibility to know the course. If Tim went through it OK as the lead, why wouldn't they? Perhaps there is more to it than we know so far?


Yes, it is officially the athlete's responsibility to know the course but I have done two Ironman branded races where there were out and back turn arounds that were NOT marked on the race maps. One was IMoo where there is a real short out and back at about mile 2, that one would be hard to miss. The other was IM 70.3Madison where there was a short out and back that no one knew about prior to the race. I had ran that course many times prior and had there not been a volunteer there directing me to the out and back, I would have ran right by it. So yes it is the athlete's responsibility to know the course, but if it is not marked on the course map, not communicated to athletes, or if there is a last minute change to the course, I think there is some grey area there.

Added to that, if, as is suggested above, they were told to turn early by an official accompanying cyclist, then I don't think it is their fault at all.
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Re: What Happened in Boulder - J Daerr and L Griffin [rmt] [ In reply to ]
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Still don't see their results reinstated on the Ironman website. I wonder how long it takes for WTC to make a simple update, or if there is something else going on here.
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Re: What Happened in Boulder - J Daerr and L Griffin [rmt] [ In reply to ]
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rmt wrote:
TennesseeJed wrote:
hadukla wrote:
If that is really all there is to it, I am surprised USAT reversed it given each athlete has the responsibility to know the course. If Tim went through it OK as the lead, why wouldn't they? Perhaps there is more to it than we know so far?


Yes, it is officially the athlete's responsibility to know the course but I have done two Ironman branded races where there were out and back turn arounds that were NOT marked on the race maps. One was IMoo where there is a real short out and back at about mile 2, that one would be hard to miss. The other was IM 70.3Madison where there was a short out and back that no one knew about prior to the race. I had ran that course many times prior and had there not been a volunteer there directing me to the out and back, I would have ran right by it. So yes it is the athlete's responsibility to know the course, but if it is not marked on the course map, not communicated to athletes, or if there is a last minute change to the course, I think there is some grey area there.

Added to that, if, as is suggested above, they were told to turn early by an official accompanying cyclist, then I don't think it is their fault at all.


But how does that happen to 2nd and 5th? It’s not like it was 2nd and 3rd. Also they have lead bikers all the way to 5th?
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