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WTC profit numbers
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So working this out from these quotes from Messick

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- Some 200,000 athletes are set to cross an Ironman finish line this year,
- The result has been a sevenfold increase in its annual revenue, jumping to more than $150 million.
- While the registration fees — for a full distance Ironman, they are about $650, and for an Ironman 70.3, around $300—currently generate about half of its revenues, the company sees the most untapped potential in sponsorships from corporations as well as host cities,

What final number are we looking at ????

Rhymenocerus wrote:
I think everyone should consult ST before they do anything.
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Re: WTC profit numbers [PJC] [ In reply to ]
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We don't know their costs. Revenue doesn't tell us much by itself. The fact that it's increased is quite self-explanatory considering the increase in races and the fact that they're not cannibalizing themselves.
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Re: WTC profit numbers [PJC] [ In reply to ]
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PJC wrote:
the company sees the most untapped potential in sponsorships from corporations...

Are they high!? Because clearly the Ford thing worked out soooooo well...(and every other major corporation that sponsored before them I don't remember)
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Re: WTC profit numbers [PJC] [ In reply to ]
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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
Last edited by: Bryancd: Jul 31, 14 16:59
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Re: WTC profit numbers [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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Bryancd wrote:
Wasn't Ben (TRS) going to do a whole expose on WTC's financials he claims he had gotten a hold of? Or was that just the self promotion machine at work?


Id be interested in seeing it. I've heard the number in 2013 of 49 million dollars profit.

Given they have taken $240 million loan from the banks, they have to be able to pay it back somehow, so they must be making about that number. I just wanted to see if someone actually knew.

http://fortune.com/2014/06/25/iron-man-triathlon-private-equity/

Rhymenocerus wrote:
I think everyone should consult ST before they do anything.
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Re: WTC profit numbers [PJC] [ In reply to ]
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PJC wrote:
Bryancd wrote:
Wasn't Ben (TRS) going to do a whole expose on WTC's financials he claims he had gotten a hold of? Or was that just the self promotion machine at work?


Id be interested in seeing it. I've heard the number in 2013 of 49 million dollars profit.

Given they have taken $240 million loan from the banks, they have to be able to pay it back somehow, so they must be making about that number. I just wanted to see if someone actually knew.

http://fortune.com/2014/06/25/iron-man-triathlon-private-equity/

One of the desired benefits of being a private company is you don't have to disclose this publicly. So they won't.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
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Re: WTC profit numbers [PJC] [ In reply to ]
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the company sees the most untapped potential in sponsorships from corporations as well as host cities,


I see an even bigger untapped revenue potential — WTC actually listening to its customers and learning how it can improve its product. There's no shortage of feedback here on ST, and I'm always amazed by the amount of negative comments coming from WTC's core customer base.

I'm even more amazed by what appears to be WTC's complete lack of interaction (response). Companies pay millions of dollars for "focus groups" like ST, a dream product development opportunity that's free to WTC, and WTC fails to engage. Even if they're listening (reading), they are still not engaging — asking for ideas, testing things out, etc.

Worthy of an HBS case study.


_____________

"Some guys they just give up living, and start dying little by little piece by piece. Some guys come home from work and wash up, then go racin' in the street." Bruce Springsteen
Last edited by: Bigcreek: Jul 31, 14 16:29
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Re: WTC profit numbers [Bigcreek] [ In reply to ]
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From what I've seen, they have listened to their customers and made improvements. My first Ironman-branded event was in 2005 and I have raced with them on three continents since then. The first one was great and they have gotten better at several things. There is still room for improvement and they are making efforts.

I was sent a satisfaction survey this morning for IMC, that is probably more valuable to them than he whining rants from the same few people on ST...which is not to say that they should completely ignore those altogether.
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Re: WTC profit numbers [cjbruin] [ In reply to ]
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cjbruin wrote:
I was sent a satisfaction survey this morning for IMC, that is probably more valuable to them than he whining rants from the same few people on ST...which is not to say that they should completely ignore those altogether.

Well, it's not my private equity firm that owns WTC, but what I see in ST is a gold mine of customer feedback and opportunities to use the dedicated ST crowd to enhance WTC's marketing effort and good will globally.

A customer survey... in today's information/tech age?

Just sayin'.


_____________

"Some guys they just give up living, and start dying little by little piece by piece. Some guys come home from work and wash up, then go racin' in the street." Bruce Springsteen
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Re: WTC profit numbers [PJC] [ In reply to ]
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PJC wrote:
Bryancd wrote:
Wasn't Ben (TRS) going to do a whole expose on WTC's financials he claims he had gotten a hold of? Or was that just the self promotion machine at work?


Id be interested in seeing it. I've heard the number in 2013 of 49 million dollars profit.

Given they have taken $240 million loan from the banks, they have to be able to pay it back somehow, so they must be making about that number. I just wanted to see if someone actually knew.

http://fortune.com/2014/06/25/iron-man-triathlon-private-equity/

If the 49Million figure is right, that makes it less than 10% margins, so we are comparing them to a hardware company or general retailer. In short, this is not a high margin business as many of us suspect it is, one can only speculate
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Re: WTC profit numbers [asianzone] [ In reply to ]
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asianzone wrote:
PJC wrote:
Bryancd wrote:
Wasn't Ben (TRS) going to do a whole expose on WTC's financials he claims he had gotten a hold of? Or was that just the self promotion machine at work?


Id be interested in seeing it. I've heard the number in 2013 of 49 million dollars profit.

Given they have taken $240 million loan from the banks, they have to be able to pay it back somehow, so they must be making about that number. I just wanted to see if someone actually knew.

http://fortune.com/2014/06/25/iron-man-triathlon-private-equity/


If the 49Million figure is right, that makes it less than 10% margins, so we are comparing them to a hardware company or general retailer. In short, this is not a high margin business as many of us suspect it is, one can only speculate

A 10% EBITDA company that is growing nicely is nothing to sneeze at. The question is how can WTC best balance growth initiatives without eroding margins. I for one would love to have the opportunity to invest in WTC. I see a large price insensitive market with huge brand value. People would pay some nice multiples for a company like that.

____________________________________
Pain is inevitable. Suffering is up to you.
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Re: WTC profit numbers [PJC] [ In reply to ]
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PJC wrote:
Bryancd wrote:
Wasn't Ben (TRS) going to do a whole expose on WTC's financials he claims he had gotten a hold of? Or was that just the self promotion machine at work?


Id be interested in seeing it. I've heard the number in 2013 of 49 million dollars profit.

Given they have taken $240 million loan from the banks, they have to be able to pay it back somehow, so they must be making about that number. I just wanted to see if someone actually knew.

http://fortune.com/2014/06/25/iron-man-triathlon-private-equity/

Providence is basically out of the picture now. The dividend was for them to cash out. So there really are no more private equity masters. Well they still have a minority stake, say 10-20%. This is most likely the Messick show now. Figure they are paying 9-10% a year on this note. Balance due in 2021. So either WTC grows the shit out of their revenues and profits or they sell.
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Re: WTC profit numbers [Runorama] [ In reply to ]
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Runorama wrote:
asianzone wrote:
PJC wrote:
Bryancd wrote:
Wasn't Ben (TRS) going to do a whole expose on WTC's financials he claims he had gotten a hold of? Or was that just the self promotion machine at work?


Id be interested in seeing it. I've heard the number in 2013 of 49 million dollars profit.

Given they have taken $240 million loan from the banks, they have to be able to pay it back somehow, so they must be making about that number. I just wanted to see if someone actually knew.

http://fortune.com/2014/06/25/iron-man-triathlon-private-equity/


If the 49Million figure is right, that makes it less than 10% margins, so we are comparing them to a hardware company or general retailer. In short, this is not a high margin business as many of us suspect it is, one can only speculate


A 10% EBITDA company that is growing nicely is nothing to sneeze at. The question is how can WTC best balance growth initiatives without eroding margins. I for one would love to have the opportunity to invest in WTC. I see a large price insensitive market with huge brand value. People would pay some nice multiples for a company like that.

I do agree with you on your point of brand equity/loyalty, they have a cult following! The issue or challenge i feel is scale! Scale here does not mean putting out more races, you still get that 8-10% overall.
Not sure how many more people they can have per race? Rolling starts may allow a little more scale but it seems that races are not selling out as far as before? There was also a separate discussion recently on how rolling starts increase cost because of closures....
Sponsor $$ is another potential but I doubt sponsors are willing to shell out top $$ as long as this is a niche sport
The last revenue stream is merchandize, there are definitely margins here. I bet their sale per sq ft is = to Lululemon and Apple (benchmark for retailers) but that can only go up if more folks do the race
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Re: WTC profit numbers [Bigcreek] [ In reply to ]
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Bigcreek wrote:
cjbruin wrote:
I was sent a satisfaction survey this morning for IMC, that is probably more valuable to them than he whining rants from the same few people on ST...which is not to say that they should completely ignore those altogether.


Well, it's not my private equity firm that owns WTC, but what I see in ST is a gold mine of customer feedback and opportunities to use the dedicated ST crowd to enhance WTC's marketing effort and good will globally.

A customer survey... in today's information/tech age?

Just sayin'.

The banter on ST only represents 10% of 10% of their target market. 90% of their target market are not, here, don't post here, and don't care what we are talking about. Of the other 10% who are here, probably 9 out of 10, you don't hear from because they don't get involved in these debates. So that 10% of the 10% (that would be around 1% of their real customer) while perhaps providing some interesting feedback, only represent a small part of the revenue potential. Like in any business, you can't cater to all customers and certainly not all the squeeky wheels. They do need to listen to us, because on the balance, we are passionate about the sport and generally represent the "power user". I'd personally say they listen more than not. It is a matter of how we provide them with guidance. Just saying something is broken, provides them with no solution. When we propose solutions and how they can be implemented, my personal experience is that they take some action. I might not like their action, but as I said, they can't please us all the time.
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Re: WTC profit numbers [tucktri] [ In reply to ]
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tucktri wrote:
Providence is basically out of the picture now. The dividend was for them to cash out. So there really are no more private equity masters. Well they still have a minority stake, say 10-20%. This is most likely the Messick show now. Figure they are paying 9-10% a year on this note. Balance due in 2021. So either WTC grows the shit out of their revenues and profits or they sell.

I think most people don't see this for what it is. PEP is cashed out. From their position, anything else they can get of WTC is gravy, and if nothing comes and the business fails (and lack of continued growth will be fail thanks to the debt load), then at least PEP got out with a handy profit. What you've got is a company with $150m in revenue that all of a sudden owes in the ballpark of $20m / year in loan payments alone. That's a huge burden. I am not envious of any WTC employees now (Messick and BOD aside; I'll assume they also got a nice payday via the dividend). Their future is continued strong growth or else. Any slowdown and their heavy debt becomes an albatross around their neck.
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Re: WTC profit numbers [asianzone] [ In reply to ]
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asianzone wrote:
Runorama wrote:
asianzone wrote:
PJC wrote:
Bryancd wrote:
Wasn't Ben (TRS) going to do a whole expose on WTC's financials he claims he had gotten a hold of? Or was that just the self promotion machine at work?


Id be interested in seeing it. I've heard the number in 2013 of 49 million dollars profit.

Given they have taken $240 million loan from the banks, they have to be able to pay it back somehow, so they must be making about that number. I just wanted to see if someone actually knew.

http://fortune.com/2014/06/25/iron-man-triathlon-private-equity/


If the 49Million figure is right, that makes it less than 10% margins, so we are comparing them to a hardware company or general retailer. In short, this is not a high margin business as many of us suspect it is, one can only speculate


A 10% EBITDA company that is growing nicely is nothing to sneeze at. The question is how can WTC best balance growth initiatives without eroding margins. I for one would love to have the opportunity to invest in WTC. I see a large price insensitive market with huge brand value. People would pay some nice multiples for a company like that.


I do agree with you on your point of brand equity/loyalty, they have a cult following! The issue or challenge i feel is scale! Scale here does not mean putting out more races, you still get that 8-10% overall.
Not sure how many more people they can have per race? Rolling starts may allow a little more scale but it seems that races are not selling out as far as before? There was also a separate discussion recently on how rolling starts increase cost because of closures....
Sponsor $$ is another potential but I doubt sponsors are willing to shell out top $$ as long as this is a niche sport
The last revenue stream is merchandize, there are definitely margins here. I bet their sale per sq ft is = to Lululemon and Apple (benchmark for retailers) but that can only go up if more folks do the race


I don't think the problem is the number of races, the venues or what not operational type sideline. It's the lack of a clearly defined mission and accompaning vision to go to the next stage. That's what you often get with managerial type CEOs instead of leaders. They need to better support creation of demand. Iron-distance triathlon is the epitome of I-can-(still)-do-it challenges. It appeals very strongly to middle aged men and A type personalities. The questions WTC needs to answer is how do we get people to think about Ironman? And how can we best facilitate the process of converting thought into action for potential customers?

____________________________________
Pain is inevitable. Suffering is up to you.
Last edited by: Runorama: Aug 1, 14 4:19
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Re: WTC profit numbers [Bigcreek] [ In reply to ]
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Bigcreek wrote:
cjbruin wrote:
I was sent a satisfaction survey this morning for IMC, that is probably more valuable to them than he whining rants from the same few people on ST...which is not to say that they should completely ignore those altogether.


Well, it's not my private equity firm that owns WTC, but what I see in ST is a gold mine of customer feedback and opportunities to use the dedicated ST crowd to enhance WTC's marketing effort and good will globally.

A customer survey... in today's information/tech age?

Just sayin'.

They DO listen to the ST crowd. Do a search for posts by "IronmanCEO". Andrew Messick has chimed in on threads, as have Tom Ziebart and Mike Reilly (IMVoice). They might not get involved in many threads, but you can be sure they are reading them. ST is the pointy end of the Ironman target market.

------------------
My business-eBodyboarding.com
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Re: WTC profit numbers [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
They do need to listen to us, because on the balance, we are passionate about the sport and generally represent the "power user". I'd personally say they listen more than not. It is a matter of how we provide them with guidance. Just saying something is broken, provides them with no solution. When we propose solutions and how they can be implemented, my personal experience is that they take some action. I might not like their action, but as I said, they can't please us all the time.


Dev, I agree in part.

Unique Opportunity. With ST, WTC has its core users and early adaptors readily accessible in a low-cost environment. Most companies would give their right testy for that customer discovery opportunity.

Missed Opportunity. I'm sure WTC monitors talk here, but that's 10% of 10% of the opportunity ST offers WTC (Slowman, you listening too?). WTC should be proactively coming to STers and asking "what's broken, what's the top ten list of things we should fix." And they should also be asking "hey, here's a new product or service we're thinking about, what do you think?" It's not our job to offer them a solution — that's their job!

This is more than monitoring chat; it is proactive customer discovery, and for WTC it's easy and free via ST. And yet how often do you see WTC coming to ST asking us for feedback? Not so much.

I am not Steve Jobs, but I can state with confidence that most successful businesses would never ever ever pass up a free and easy opportunity to market test its core customers. If they want to grow their business, a good place to start is by proactively asking their core customers what's broken, and then proactively asking them for feedback on new ideas.

My two cents. That and a $250 check gets me into my next Half Iron :)


_____________

"Some guys they just give up living, and start dying little by little piece by piece. Some guys come home from work and wash up, then go racin' in the street." Bruce Springsteen
Last edited by: Bigcreek: Aug 1, 14 5:28
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Re: WTC profit numbers [PJC] [ In reply to ]
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This might not be a popular stand, since for some reason it seems people on ST like to bash WTC for any and every reason, but I fail to understand why are people so upset about WTC making a profit? They are not a charity. They are a business and the goal of any business is to make money. WTC is not any different than a bike company, running store, or any other business - they are in business to make money. I really don't understand why people try to demonize this so much? And who has the right to say how much profit they can make of how much is "too much"? It is capitalism at work. If people are so upset about how much their races cost, or if they think WTC makes too high profits, then don't do their races. It's really very simple.
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Re: WTC profit numbers [kny] [ In reply to ]
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kny wrote:
Any slowdown and their heavy debt becomes an albatross around their neck.

Yeah, that'll never fly :-)



Cheers,
malte


Remember: eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked in jet turbines
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Re: WTC profit numbers [little red] [ In reply to ]
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little red wrote:
This might not be a popular stand, since for some reason it seems people on ST like to bash WTC for any and every reason, but I fail to understand why are people so upset about WTC making a profit? They are not a charity. They are a business and the goal of any business is to make money. WTC is not any different than a bike company, running store, or any other business - they are in business to make money. I really don't understand why people try to demonize this so much? And who has the right to say how much profit they can make of how much is "too much"? It is capitalism at work. If people are so upset about how much their races cost, or if they think WTC makes too high profits, then don't do their races. It's really very simple.


I agree, i cannot understand some of the senseless bashing that goes on here...... they are ruled by margins just the same way the very companies we work for!
Last edited by: asianzone: Aug 1, 14 5:44
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Re: WTC profit numbers [asianzone] [ In reply to ]
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asianzone wrote:
PJC wrote:
Bryancd wrote:
Wasn't Ben (TRS) going to do a whole expose on WTC's financials he claims he had gotten a hold of? Or was that just the self promotion machine at work?


Id be interested in seeing it. I've heard the number in 2013 of 49 million dollars profit.

Given they have taken $240 million loan from the banks, they have to be able to pay it back somehow, so they must be making about that number. I just wanted to see if someone actually knew.

http://fortune.com/2014/06/25/iron-man-triathlon-private-equity/


If the 49Million figure is right, that makes it less than 10% margins, so we are comparing them to a hardware company or general retailer. In short, this is not a high margin business as many of us suspect it is, one can only speculate

I don't believe the 49 million number but if that is true and the revenue of 150 million is true, then that is approx 30-33% profit. I would certainly be happy with that.

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
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Re: WTC profit numbers [habbywall] [ In reply to ]
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habbywall wrote:
PJC wrote:
the company sees the most untapped potential in sponsorships from corporations...


Are they high!? Because clearly the Ford thing worked out soooooo well...(and every other major corporation that sponsored before them I don't remember)

I think a "Ford like" sponsorship is exactly what they're looking for. They were title sponsor for 7 years (2005-2010) which included all 12 North American Ironman races.

I don't think they've had anything close to that since, and Hawaii sponsorship has been standalone...one and done for MySpace, and possibly the same for GoPro.

Scott
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Re: WTC profit numbers [PJC] [ In reply to ]
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PJC wrote:
Bryancd wrote:
Wasn't Ben (TRS) going to do a whole expose on WTC's financials he claims he had gotten a hold of? Or was that just the self promotion machine at work?



The TRS boys got the heavy hand of the WTC legal department layed on them in a very nefarious way, so you won't be seeing any financial metrics being released. Davey won the skirmish against Goliath on Sunday with #IMLP7, anything further is likely gonna have to come from the pro ranks organizing if they feel they're being mistreated.
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Re: WTC profit numbers [WiScott] [ In reply to ]
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WiScott wrote:
habbywall wrote:
PJC wrote:
the company sees the most untapped potential in sponsorships from corporations...


Are they high!? Because clearly the Ford thing worked out soooooo well...(and every other major corporation that sponsored before them I don't remember)


I think a "Ford like" sponsorship is exactly what they're looking for. They were title sponsor for 7 years (2005-2010) which included all 12 North American Ironman races.

I don't think they've had anything close to that since, and Hawaii sponsorship has been standalone...one and done for MySpace, and possibly the same for GoPro.

Scott

It was "MyList" and the GoPro sponsorship is at least 2 years (last year and this year).

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
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