I'm not trying to be rude but that's MY opinion. Anytime you want to beat a previous PB then you're racing that time, but racing others around you...? I don't think it's a race unless there is something to be gained by placing better than that other competitor. I guess you could be racing your training buddies and to me that is often the most important race! So I guess anyone anywhere can be racing.

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"the trick is to keep losing weight until your friends and family ask you if you've been sick. then you know you're within 10 pounds. if they start whispering to each other, wondering if you've got cancer or aids, you're within 5. when they actually do an intervention, you're at race weight." - Slowman

What bothers me s when people on here always post their race times with questions.

"Hi, I'm a 4:30ish Half IMer and I'm trying to decide which water bottle cage to get." WTF does your Half IM time have to do with your goddam water bottle cage???

I totally get what you are saying and I don't completely disagree. But, being a participant isn't bad. Yes, there should be a cutoff on some events. But, what that cutoff is can be a raging debate.

I'm completely honest about my race times and always have been. I'm slow, I'm BOP. But, my slow body has accomplished a hell of a lot.

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Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce

I have always said - at IronMan there are about five guys "racing"...and they are way way "up there" (pointing forward)....the rest of us are there to participate. Being as I have always been there to participate, I prepare best I can, arrive on time and go out to play. The folks from Chicago in years past pretty much claimed that the RD at Chicago was pretty much out to kill them for being slow. All bullshit. And, no matter what there is no pride at all in a suffer fest. I can not think of one time in my playing the IM game since 1999 that I would ever tell anyone how "horrible" it was...but dont worry, more often than not the folks with these stories will follow up with how they made it past such terrors.


(oh, and had they just been PREPARED - there would be no horror as they would have been ready for what the course had in store for them)

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Hrm. So I guess the guys finishing 12th in any race in the Olympics aren't really racing, huh? Good to know.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Chip, I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure I saw you sweating like a pig on the sidelines at IMOO while snapping away at "fatties."

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Tweet WattsUpKarin Blargh

I was sweating like a pig! But, I was not suffering....had a few great spots too (like smack in the center of State St.)

What does sweating have to do with it? Oh, and I now regret not shooting a few of that guy in the speedo and wife beater...it was the pimples on his hind side that were just too much to take.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Sure you wont marry me?

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

I finished my first marathon today, and was thinking about this exact topic on the way home.

I finished in 3:34, 4 minutes off my goal and 19 minutes off a BQ. Not fast, I know, but I'm pretty damn proud to have finished. This time last year I couldn't run a mile and a half, seriously.

Before watching the leaders fly past my on their way back from the 1st turn around, I used to think that anyone qualifying for Boston was pretty quick. Now I know better.

The winner finished in 2:09, and there was a decent crowd in that absurdly fast stratosphere.

One of the first posts on this thread mentioned the 3 hour mark for being fast. Well, I'm a hell of a lot closer to the 3:00 runners than they are to actually being in the race. In fact, the three hour finishers get about as much notice outside their immediate family friends as the 5-6 hour finisher.

So really, unless your within actual striking distance of the leaders, you're not racing the marathon. Doesn't matter if you finish in 2:30 (men), 2:45, 3:00, 3:34, 5:00 or 6:00, we're all the same - racing ourselves and our goals.

Oh, and the course has a 6:30 time limit. I am all for time limits. If one person is out there two hours longer than anyone else then they need to re-set their goals and come back when their ready.

I'm not sure why you brought up Chicago, 2 years ago when it was hot and humid, 82F and high humidity, Chicago did indeed run out of water/gatorade at several water stops. I know many people who confirm that boper's and some late mopers were without fluids. Family, friends, and even the crowd did what they could to help people. People even ran into stores buying their own. I don't think anyone blames Carey for intentionally doing this, it was just poor planning in extreme conditions. If you pay $125 for a race you expect a minimum of water. For me, I was lucky it was about 36f when i ran chicago in 2006.

I don't have a problem with time limits, and people I know who are 6+ hour marathoners don't either, they just need to know the limit when the register. Some races allow them to start unaided an hour early. Keep in mind if you didn't have the BOPer's shelling out $125 for an entry for the big races like Chicago, they would not have the winners getting a big payday. So if you chase slow people away from th e race, remember that you are throwing out entry fees too. Sure there is a break even point somewhere, but with the tri's and marathons I've helped with there are usually only a few paid staff, medic, and police. Volunteers line up to be involved in good events like the chicago marathon and you don't have to pay them. Though I think my local tri race directors do give donations to boy scouts, track teams and other groups who volunteer. If they are there an extra 30 minutes, you aren't going to pay them any more.

Let's not include any professional competitions or world championships. However, I do feel depending on the event that there are TONS of athletes in the Olympics who aren't in the race and know it, but are likely going as hard as they can.

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"the trick is to keep losing weight until your friends and family ask you if you've been sick. then you know you're within 10 pounds. if they start whispering to each other, wondering if you've got cancer or aids, you're within 5. when they actually do an intervention, you're at race weight." - Slowman

First - no Chicago DID NOT run out of water, nor sport drink...they didnt, that is just a fact.

And yes, RD's do give donations to boy scouts and the like. The police, ambulance and permits all cost money and are a loss at a point.

82 is still not that hot. Extreme - freaking please. I suppose that if I was 250lbs and out of shape it would have been extreme - short of that...folks were just plain unprepared.

Entry fee's also do not pay out prize money - sponsors do. If an RD depends on race fee's for prize money that is just a huge gamble.

As for chasing away folks who will do a 6+ marathon as compared to their entry fee opposed to the costs of keeping roads closed and police on the course....I would make the cut off 5hrs MAX if I was a marathon RD. It does not require much effort to WALK 26 miles in 5 hours - not even with a back pack, food, tent, sleeping bag and extra clothing. Now, if I was to pitch a tent and take a nap.....I can see 6+ at an open Marathon. Now, ride your bike some 112 mile first, and have your son in a push cart...I can see it.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

I think lots of the 3 hour guys are probably placing quite high at Scotibank in their age group (which is the level of "racing" I've been talking about). I think in some smaller marathons like the Toronto marathon in 3 weeks, 3 hours probably is a GREAT age group finish and possible top three. I checked 3:00:00 would have been third in 30-34 at Toronto last year.

Ken

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"the trick is to keep losing weight until your friends and family ask you if you've been sick. then you know you're within 10 pounds. if they start whispering to each other, wondering if you've got cancer or aids, you're within 5. when they actually do an intervention, you're at race weight." - Slowman

Life comes full circle. Classic!

Did you forget to take your medication again?

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

They did NOT run out of water...there was a WAIT at some stations, granted. But, oddly most of the folks who were bitching were at not even the half way point at 3 hours, a full hour after the "race" was over. Again (being as water was coming from the public water lines and from fire hydrants) they DID NOT run out of water.

The way I see it, Boston has it easy - they at least know the folks showing up have a reason to be there.


As for your math...if only it was that easy. You have any clue what it costs to close a road and hire cops? Entry fee's are not even a shadow in the dawn compared to real costs (here, an hour from Chicago it is $120 an hour, per cop - take that times a few hundred cops at Chicago rates. Add to that EMS, and on and on). Pretty much you dont have a clue (and have no reason to as you are not an RD).

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

I should have used some pink in the font, 3:00 is pretty damn fast.

But, the point I was trying to make was that no matter how fast you are, it is always relative to the competition you are being compared to. So, outside of the elite it is impossible to draw a line and say one side is fast and one side isn't. And, if you can't find a place to draw an absolute line, you can slide the relative line from 10:00 behind the winner all the way to the final stragglers.

This applies to all sports really. Take any men's league. I used to play beer league hockey that had divisions A through D. The A division is made up of top notch guys, many of whom came pretty close to the pros. The D division is pretty much beginners who didn't take the game up until later in life. But, they all compete hard, play to win, and are stuck with ice time at 11:30 pm on a Tuesday night because all of them, A through D, are guys who will never make it to the top but still love to play. Is there that much difference between them?

But, in running and Tri - they are on the same ice at the same time....that is what makes things a bit more fuzzy here.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Brilliant. So if I show up at a race and the fast people are not there and I win then I am racing but if I go back the next year, go a few minutes faster but a bunch of fast guys show up I finish 10th I am merely participating?

Chip, I ran that race. It was HOT! The Farmer's almanac reported 88 degrees max temp at Midway airport and I remember it was extremely humid (mean dew point was 62.5). That's pretty hot for any marathon in my book. It was probably hotter downtown with all the glass, buildings, etc..

http://www.almanac.com/...L/Chicago/2007-10-08

All the complaining, I agree there was water and lots of folks going really slow but I ran that race and the RD was not prepared for that heat. What baffled me was they sent out alerts all week warning about the heat and to be sure to take in plenty of liquids, then they didn't have enough gatorade. IM races are much better organized.

good on ya. Not just for the heroic job of being a teacher, but for leading by example and actually inspiring others around you.

Very fuzzy.

At least fast runners don't have to be stuck in a late wave and worry about working their way through traffic, they can be at the other end of the ice so to speak.

I do understand where you are comming from I think. But I also think everyone has their own set of reasons for running and their results have to be taken into context with those reasons. Sometimes walking a six hour marathon is quite an accomplishment.

I guess I just haven't really run into people boasting about some pretty mediocre accomplishments. At least not in my new adult running life.

If things don't work out with my husband I'll let you know. :-)

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Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce

Awwww hell...here in Rockford you will have no problem at all finding folks who could have easily survived Satan himself...yet, just by will alone made it to the finish line of that there marathon.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?