The angle at which that picture was taken is far from ideal so it's hard to tell from that perspective but...

you need more pad reach and less pad stack. You're riding high and cramped, at least from that bad angle.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

agreed pretty much, more reach and a better picture for sure.

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Really looks like you are fitted as if that P3 was a road bike... everything just looks shifted rearwards.

Retul is nothing but a tool, what you really are paying for is the fitters knowledge and ability to translate that to the best fit for YOU. I'm not knocking the fitter, but looking at the picture and the recommendations you got, it makes me wonder...

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"Suddenly the thought struck me. My floor is someone elses ceiling"-Nils Ferlin

Definitely need more reach, there is no way that your reach is still too long, and maybe lower the cockpit some, its kind of hard to tell from the pic but I wouldn't be going to that fitter anymore.

I have only been doing this a couple years. But I know from going through multiple fits and what I've learned through slowtwitch this is not a good bike fit... bigly

You should be if the fitter is suggesting less reach on that setup. Cripes.

Go somewhere else!

I don't get what so hard about fit, just make yourself look like this

When you lowered the bars, did you adjust the saddle to accommodate? If not, I can appreciate why you felt squeezed. The picture that Slowman created years ago captures how your saddle position should change with more drop to maintain the same hip angle. Right now it seems like you are the 'green' outline. Simply dropping your aerobars without moving your saddle forwards and up would really close the hip angle.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...techctr/bikefit.html


Are you on a 54cm P3 right now? For your height (184cm), even a 90mm stem seems kinda short for a frame that would already be on the small side of your fit range.

are you set up on your bike according to the retul report? i ask because people here are complaining about your scrunched cockpit, but the report says you should have an "armpad reach" of 460mm, and they measure to the back of the pad. that's not consistent with a scrunched cockpit. that's about 500mm to pad-center.

now, it could LOOK scrunched because your pads are so high. just, i'm wondering if the bike is set up as per the report.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Thanks for all the replies guys.

Yeah, the photo is me racing in the position exactly as per the retul report. The fitter did advise me to raise the seat by 0,5cm but I needed spacers for the 3T aura bar which I received yesterday. So yesterday I raised the seat 5mm and added the 10mm spacers. Here's a much better photo just now.

Here's a photo with the 90mm orginal stem, no further adjust per above photo.

It's a 2016 (or 2015) Cervelo P3 size 56 with 170mm crank.

that's the danger of one shot from a bad angle from a race... new picture looks a lot different. (and better)

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

i am so glad you found and posted that diagram, because it points out the one obvious pitfall that most be avoided when body angles drive the fit. all of the three riders in that diagram conform, because they all exhibit identical body angles. this metric is independent of the horizon.

this is why i wrote an article some weeks back explaining why HX is the metric i watch most of the time, most often, during a fit. i have not found that HX is a metric retul fitters are trained to look at. now, part of the reason is that neither HX nor any other cockpit measure (reach, pad x) is a deliverable when using retul's fit bike. this is my main problem with that tool.

you can have body angles that conform, while still ending up with an pad x that is too short, or an armrest elevation which is anemic (90mm off a 800mm saddle height, in this case).

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

The new photo is a much better representation.

Remember, fit is about maintaining an optimal hip angle.

Following the Slowman diagram above:
- as you raise your bars, you should consider moving your saddle back and lowering it. (...remember, this is to maintain effective hip angles)
- as you lower your bars, your saddle should come forwards and raised.

It's great that you're willing to adapt your fit. Work incrementally towards something like the Fabian Cancellara position. It's very possible to create an aerodynamic and comfortable fit.

I've read countless articles and looked through all the videos and pictures of bikefit's etc. but I just can't figure it all out. I've also been trying with the bikefit app to check angles etc.
So my position looks a lot better in these pictures, sorry for the first very bad picture which then was very misleading.

Am I to conclude that the 60mm stem is a good fit and the bike is a good fit? I should just look into lowering the front to get a more flat back while keeping the angles I have now per the retul fit?

How about going to 160 cranks, then raise the saddle a cm and try it that way. IF not comfortable then raise the bars a bit..

Of course you have to go back to the fit bike to do this, did you do any trials with shorter cranks?

How does this new fit feel? How does it ride? It isn't a great idea to work with a fitter in one snapshot and then go make a lot of changes. If the fitter is in your area then the best approach is to work with them over time to evolve your position.

The key to getting your back flatter is Slowman's diagram above depicting rotating your entire body around the bb. Just lowering your front end while holding everything else static will just lead to problems. Your current limiter is probably how you sit on the saddle. Until you can roll forward on the saddle it will be difficult to rotate your position. This is where I would expect a fitter to help you find a way to make this happen.

Also, don't get too hung up on a flat back to start with. Maybe not even for the long term, if you can't get rotated. A lot of aero improvement can be gained by optimizing your reach to bring your elbows in, shoulders in or shrugged and head down to really reduce your frontal area.

Monty has nailed (and Dan, Dan first). Often, and I mean often, a bike fit will get lost in translation. Meaning, you get your fit coordinates on a paper and then the fit gets lost in setting up the bike to those coordinates. Without a UCI jig you can measure a bike 5 times and get 4 1/2 different measurements - e.g. gather your friends around to measure saddle setback and you'll see what I mean.

(Monty has nailed it) Look at your hips - key in on your kit lines for references. Right now you're sitting on the bike like Eddie Merckx, you just have aerobars in front. You have a saddle that promotes hip rotation but you're not rotating them [so it's either an off the bike thing or it's not the right saddle - e.g, you need channel relief but maybe something more narrow like the new Bontrager Pro posted earlier on ST]. So, crank length is the next thing to look at. If your brain can't workout how to get those fixed levers through the circle it will compensate to do so. Arching your back, swinging knees out to the side, dropping hips, etc...these all show an issue with circular efficiency. So, dropping that crank length - then raising the saddle to match it - will provide clearance. You can then rotate forward with more open/stable hips and be supported on the front. You'll likely need some drop after that change as well.

......and when the retul numbers don't match reality for the actual frame stack/reach(compare database on this site or cervelo's page to that listed in retul output), how much faith do you put into the rest of the numbers being accurate?

position is beach cruiseresque with bend mid back to reach bars. not sitting on that saddle as it is designed to be. cervelos(the one OP has) are not a long/low frame

Are you sure about your inseam? You mention 84 cm but your saddle height on the retul form is almost 80 cm heigh?? That sounds a bit off for either one of them.

Jeroen

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Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands

Nice body position to be sure. His reach seems a bit short to me, I prefer to have a slight forward tilt of the upper arms but he's likely constrained by UCI regs. The slight downward slope of the forearms has been generally found to add drag. But very few triathletes have a position this good.

As for Retul fits, supposedly it's just a tool to be used by the fitter but it seems their default recommendations are very cautious as generally the Retul fits I've seen have been very upright and oriented towards comfort rather than performance.

You're absolutely right.. I did another control measurement and it's more like 87-88cm.

I haven't tried any different crank lengths.. I don't have any lying around either so I would have to buy one.

In terms of hip rotation, this is one of the things I'm having troubles understanding. The position I have now (with the 60mm stem) is very comfortable indeed, but it also feels quite "high" and when I lower the cockpit and I fall more forward I actually think that's more comfortable than the upright/uphill position. Also, this "uphill"-position makes it hard to rotate the hips (I think?) as I'm not leaning forward and putting pressure on the pelvis I end up with a more of a "road bike" position on the seat? It could also be that the ISM Adamo Prologue is a little wide, I could try zipties on the ISM or try to switch the Specialized Sitero seat from my road bike to the P3. On another note, the fitter did say I have "little or no internal hip rotation which may cause knees to be pressed outwards at the top of the pedalstroke" so might just be a problem for me?

Here's a photo with the 90mm stem with 4-5 cm lowered cockpit. Comparing photo's side by side my back is a little more flat and I can lean more forward on the saddle, but this also feels more compressed in the upper thigh.. As mentioned in this thread I should lower my seat and move it forward while doing this.. I've just been experimenting some. I might just go back to the orginal bike fit setup.

So at least we've concluded that bike actually fit quite ok so there's no need for a new bike?

I still think you lack full hip rotation but this last one is much better!

And you have room to move down.

You should be able to put your hands on base bar and practice rotating your hips.

You may find you're sitting too far back on the saddle.

Saddle height will be affected when you rotator your hips better

1) rotate hips
2) then work saddle height
3) then work reach/drop

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Merge Multisport Founder & Head Coach
USAT Level 2 - Short & Long Course
Ironman Certified
Brevard, NC

Thanks for all the good replies! I have come to the realization (as said by many) that there is no answer and that it's more of an art than science. That's why I think forums such as these are awesome!


So, having a little cold this past week made me do some more research into positions and reading lots of the great information available on this forum. I then went back to my bike to experience and spent a couple of hours adjusting things back and forth, mainly focusing on shoulder and hip angles - as well as what felt good for me. After lots of fiddling, I ended up with this position.

Thew new position is a roughly 13cm drop (the retul fit was 8) and I actually feel a lot more stable having more drop as well having the 90mm stem opposed to the 60mm which the fitter meant was a "must" for proper shoulder angle. I don't actually get why though, comparing my shoulder angles with the 60mm vs 90mm I'm at roughly the same - it's just more or less the drop that's the big difference? I don't feel particularly stretched out either in "the new position" with the 90mm stem. After a two hour ride yesterday, it felt quite good after some adjusting. My neck will have to get used to this new angle and perhaps the seat is a tad too high, but otherwise I think it's quite good. I got lots of headwind yesterday and I definitely felt a noticeable difference as opposed to the old position!

What do you guys think? Too aggressive? Not aggressive enough?

I guess hip rotation is still not very good. I am (or at least it feels like) I'm at the very front of the seat now.. I do feel like I rotate my hips when riding at least..

All that rounding in your back makes it really difficult to use your glutes/core when riding.

Still have a long way to go on rotating your hips.

Learn to rotate your hips, THEN fit the front end.

This is a big improvement though. Learning to sit on a bike properly is important. Clearly, your previous fitter was just focusing on numbers, NOT how you actually sat on the bike.

Keep working on it. Most people I know with good positions have migrated there over years. It's not an overnight change.

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Merge Multisport Founder & Head Coach
USAT Level 2 - Short & Long Course
Ironman Certified
Brevard, NC