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V02 max intervals on the bike (Trainer Road)
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So I've been an endurance athlete all my life. Runner, roadie, triathlete, ironman, stage races / etc. So I've been around the block training using different methods.

What I have not done is a lot of V02 max on the trainer. Yesterday I had a prescribed workout on TR. It was 9 x 3 mins (3 mins rest) as 3 sets of 3 with 6 mins rest between sets. Doesn't sound too awful right? Well they had it prescribed at 120%! Now it sounds awful right!!?? There was a little note at the bottom of the workout that said something like find a sustainable hard wattage for you. Well for me I figured first crack at it let's try 120%. I blew sky high on the 3rd one. That's coming off hitting pace in a 5 x 8 102% workout last week, and a 5 x 9 over / under workout last week that maxed my HR....those hurt. But I hit the targets.

So my question is this. When I do something like 5 x 5 at V02 I'm redlining at 360 or so. Yesterday's target.....396...lol. Do others find wide variations in what they can handle v02 wise? I'm assuming the higher trained athletes have a harder time hitting 120%. For reference my 5 minute power is about 410, Threshold about 330. I've been riding only about 15+ hours / week in the 700+ TSS range. I'm definitely not sharp, but until yesterday feel strong.

Just looking for other experiences with V02 targets. Thanks.

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Re: V02 max intervals on the bike (Trainer Road) [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]
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That was my experience a few months ago in the HIM build plan. I had to de-rate my FTP significantly to get through the VO2 workouts. I had no trouble with sweet spot or tempo rides.

At the time I was early into the desert dude full on ass challenge building my run volume up to 50mpw, so definitely had more stress in my legs than I was used to.

Once my body got used to the run volume my next FTP test put my FTP back to where it was and I haven't had trouble with the VO2 workouts since (but the VO2 in the specialty plan is more 105-108% intervals than the 120% it was in build).

So it could be the high volume you are carrying.
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Re: V02 max intervals on the bike (Trainer Road) [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]
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9x3, 3 times is almost an hour and a half at 120%. No way I could do that
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Re: V02 max intervals on the bike (Trainer Road) [ridenfish39] [ In reply to ]
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3 sets of 3 total. 27 minutes :)

24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex
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Re: V02 max intervals on the bike (Trainer Road) [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]
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I did some vo2 work yesterday too. Normally I can gut it through intervals, but I started to fall apart from the beginning. Glad I'm not the only one who felt that workout was borderline unsustainable. I'm also not the cyclist you are though.
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Re: V02 max intervals on the bike (Trainer Road) [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]
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I am also starting the IM Build Plan from Trainer Road, and had problems with the first VO2 workout, which had two blocks of 3 x 4.5 min intervals at 120% FTP, it felt brutal and I could not even finish the 3rd interval.
Before I did several VO2 workouts during the base period, with 3 min intervals at 120% FTP, and I could always hit the target watts. However I suspect that it was because my FTP was previously set too low. Now starting the build phase I did a new FTP test and the new FTP was 10% higher than in the previous test (which was 10 weeks before after a period of little training).
The workouts became obviously more difficult with the new FTP value, but I could manage all of them... until that VO2 workout yesterday. It appears that all the next VO2 workouts from the plan are shorter (also at 120% FTP but 3 min. instead the 4.5 min. of my last workout), so I guess I'll first see how the next one goes before deciding if I should reduce my FTP.
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Re: V02 max intervals on the bike (Trainer Road) [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]
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I have a pretty similar FTP (around 330-340) and VO2 work sucks! Doing 3' intervals at 120% is f-ing hard. Lately, I've been doing intervals in the 112% range - 5' at around 365-370 watts with 3' rest. These seem doable compared with 2 min less at 8% more!

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Re: V02 max intervals on the bike (Trainer Road) [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]
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I've been doing the Long Course Build Plan, and the last while have had a VO2 Max interval once per week.

Of the 7 VO2 work outs I've done, I've only nailed 2 of them, the others I've either missed an interval, or dialed down the intensity on a couple of them.

I've never done VO2 work before this, so it's all new, but I dread seeing them in the plan. For me, the shorter the intervals, the more likely I've finished the entire work out as prescribed.
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Re: V02 max intervals on the bike (Trainer Road) [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]
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I've done 5X3', 5X4' and 5X5' with 5' rest at 115% to 120% but not as many as 9.

I remember fading on the 5X5' though. Some people at good at the high power stuff and can do 120% with a lower perceived exertion than most so I can see why the workout might say "find a sustainable hard wattage for you".
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Re: V02 max intervals on the bike (Trainer Road) [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]
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I just did this same workout last week and I was able to get through all 9. Now my wattage was lower (not sure your w/kg) but 120% is 120% regardless. Then yesterday I was meant to do 5x3 @125% (3 min recovery) and I only managed 3 of the 5. To get through the workout I had to drop things down to 118% for the remaining 2 intervals. I think the rule is to stay above 115% to ensure you're still getting the VO2Max benefits in the training. So if you're struggling just knock it back a smidgen and see where that leaves you. I am confident that's what Coach Chad would say! (because I've heard him say so on the podcast)

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Re: V02 max intervals on the bike (Trainer Road) [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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Trainer road VO2max workouts are too hard for most athletes IMO.

Triathletes are often doing 5-6 hard sessions per week. You don't want to blow your wad on one workout.

20-25 minutes of VO2max work per session is more than enough. I have power numbers pretty similar to yours and do my 3 minute vo2max intervals at 112-115% FTP.

Remember the following principle: train the least amount that still creates a stimulus. Why do 9 intervals at 120% and feel like death when you will get a good training response from 6 or 7 at 115%?
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Re: V02 max intervals on the bike (Trainer Road) [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]
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I've been doing the 40km TT road plan but still train as a triathlete (swim, run, gym work). What I found that helped me was a solid day off for the legs in between VO2 days. Sounds simplistic as the workouts are still really, ridiculously hard but for me, moving my long / hard runs to the same day I did these workouts then just swimming or spinning on off days gave me a bit of pep in my legs during the hard sessions. My FTP is nowhere near yours but changing things around like this resulted in me actually being able to hit the prescribed wattage for the first time.
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Re: V02 max intervals on the bike (Trainer Road) [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]
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I am guessing 360 watts is still productive V02 Max work with a 330 FTP, but if you go much lower than that, you are doing more of a threshold workout than a V02 max workout. My philosophy on V02 max intervals (also using trainer-road) is to complete the reps I can and once/if I fall off, to end the interval set rather than push through and do the intervals at threshold as opposed to V02. At that point I am no longer getting the intended benefit of the workout and I am just adding fatigue for my next workout. If the workout calls for three sets 3 x 3 @ 120%, I would rather complete the first two sets at 115-120% then to do the first set at 120% and the next two at 105%.


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Re: V02 max intervals on the bike (Trainer Road) [TennesseeJed] [ In reply to ]
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How many miles are you running? Any hard runs? I find this will affect Vo2 stuff on the bike a lot. Overall, That's a very hard workout. I'm not sure I could manage this unless I took a complete taper into it. If you are a triathlete, you carry fatigue from running and swimming so it makes it very hard to hit Vo2 work like this. I like 15x1min at 120-125% with 2 min rest. You can get through it and get some benefits from the Vo2 work but not mentally drain yourself or burn your legs for a couple days.
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Re: V02 max intervals on the bike (Trainer Road) [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]
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cmscat50 wrote:
So I've been an endurance athlete all my life. Runner, roadie, triathlete, ironman, stage races / etc. So I've been around the block training using different methods.

What I have not done is a lot of V02 max on the trainer. Yesterday I had a prescribed workout on TR. It was 9 x 3 mins (3 mins rest) as 3 sets of 3 with 6 mins rest between sets. Doesn't sound too awful right? Well they had it prescribed at 120%! Now it sounds awful right!!?? There was a little note at the bottom of the workout that said something like find a sustainable hard wattage for you. Well for me I figured first crack at it let's try 120%. I blew sky high on the 3rd one. That's coming off hitting pace in a 5 x 8 102% workout last week, and a 5 x 9 over / under workout last week that maxed my HR....those hurt. But I hit the targets.

So my question is this. When I do something like 5 x 5 at V02 I'm redlining at 360 or so. Yesterday's target.....396...lol. Do others find wide variations in what they can handle v02 wise? I'm assuming the higher trained athletes have a harder time hitting 120%. For reference my 5 minute power is about 410, Threshold about 330. I've been riding only about 15+ hours / week in the 700+ TSS range. I'm definitely not sharp, but until yesterday feel strong.

Just looking for other experiences with V02 targets. Thanks.
There is a good reason why the power level known as VO2max is fairly broad, from 105-120% of FTP.

When you transition to a block of dedicated VO2max work:
i. it will take a while to work out what power is suitable for you, use your actual efforts to guide the next session
ii. it also can be a rude transition that requires a couple of weeks to adapt to
iii. don't expect to last much longer than 6 weeks or so if this sort of work is a key part of your training focus

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Re: V02 max intervals on the bike (Trainer Road) [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]
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Here is the issue with this. That 105-120% for V02 is descriptive in nature (Coggan's zones). It was never really supposed to be prescriptive If I understood him right at a conference he spoke at (If not, he can correct me hopefully).

These zones are generally pretty close for individuals from threshold and below. However, when you go above threshold people become very different in how they handle the watts. To correct for this, he has come out with the individualized zones based on your own data in WKO4.... game changer.

You very likely may be trying to fit a square peg into a round hole... While doing this, you may not be maximizing your training. Sure its hard and you'll get some benefit, but again, you could be missing out on the optimal workload.

Ex: Different athletes should have different durations for v02 workouts at different percentages of their FTP..... it needs to work for you.

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Re: V02 max intervals on the bike (Trainer Road) [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]
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I am on Climbing Road Race.


I was supposed to do Charybdis +2 yesterday after doing Gould+2 and bombing Sierra last week. I knew I wasn't going to make it so dialled it back to Mount Deborah: 7 x 3min at 105-109%. That went okay so will look at finding another workout with slightly higher intensities and build it up from there.

I am finding this round of VO2max hard - no trouble with the threshold rides though.
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Re: V02 max intervals on the bike (Trainer Road) [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]
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I love how this was brought up today.

I'm doing the sweet spot plan right now and today's session was 6x3'@120%. My target power was a tad lower than yours (371/FTP=310), but I was absolutely dying. Next week is a rest week, but I don't want to screw with the person that truly completes 9x3'@FTP. Freaking monster.

Minute 1 is manageable. 1:30 starts to really hurt. By 2:00, time slows to an absolute crawl. 2:30 things go dark. lol. Dry heaves undoubtedly for all my vo2max work. I seriously hate (and love) TR for putting so much vo2max work in. But I will say this: I can only do so much work right at FTP. I seem to respond really well to 115–120% work.

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Re: V02 max intervals on the bike (Trainer Road) [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]
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The trainer road workouts are hard, I think you have to be on a good day to hit the 120%

I managed it yesterday for 9x3, but i was pretty wrecked on today's run so it might not be worth aiming that high.
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Re: V02 max intervals on the bike (Trainer Road) [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]
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I don't use trainer road, but right now my coach is having me get back into more VO2 stuff after a few weeks more geared towards tempo and cruise intervals. For perspective, ~1.5 month ago I did a 20' TT and hit 343w (I weighed 158lb), also did a 10' TT and went ~370w. I was injured off running and barely running. Since then my running has come back to ~20mpw and I'm swimming a fair bit as well, down to 153lb or so.

Today I was supposed to do 6x3' @ 355 on 1' rest, 5' spin, then 3x2' @ 355 on 1' rest. I blew absolutely sky high after the 3' intervals and had to readjust to 6x1' on + 1' off instead of 3x2'. This was my first real VO2 set in about a month. 355 is in the ballpark of 109% for me and it friggin' HURT to hit my targets for 6 intervals.

There is ZERO way I could do the set you described, as someone who tends to have less top end and more diesel. I wouldn't sweat it. Adjust to maybe 105-108% and see if your HR is still getting up to where it needs to be to get the VO2 benefit.

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Re: V02 max intervals on the bike (Trainer Road) [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]
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I posed a similar question in the TR thread last summer regarding some of the workouts in succession during a full volume build and peak. I've got a decently high ftp and w/kg of 4.5. I'd never failed workouts before, let alone regularly not being able to hit target power each week of 120%. Chad noted that the higher the FTP, the more difficult it may be for people to hit the upper end wattages. The workout is still of significant value as long as you're hitting at least 110% - which agrees with a lot of the other literature out there by Hunter Allen, etc for Vo2 work.
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Re: V02 max intervals on the bike (Trainer Road) [pvolb] [ In reply to ]
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This thread is interesting. I've pretty well trained my bike and could pretty easily do that workout. It would be hard but 120% ftp for 3 minutes is about right for me. OTOH, my 5 min power is 118% my best 20 minute power and 130% ftp, so 'slowtwitch' may not apply.
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Re: V02 max intervals on the bike (Trainer Road) [pvolb] [ In reply to ]
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So glad this came up today. My ftp is 330 and I had been sailing through the sprint base and build faze. Was gonna bump up my ftp and then came the 3' vo2max intervals. I dropped by the third one and couldn't hold more than 110% . On the last one I was pretty motivated and held 120% for the first min, fell off the second and reached deep on the third min and got back up to 120%. Needless to say I was a bit demoralized. This thread made me feel better :-) .
P.s. Its good to let people In your home know when your doing vo2 max intervals. My wife heard me one day and thought I was being stabbed to death.
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Re: V02 max intervals on the bike (Trainer Road) [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]
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I think it may be highly personal thing.

I am rather "big boned" and definetly not a typical endurance type bodybuild and 3 x 3x3 at 120% is a bit tiresome but still on a fun side of things. The only V02 max training in trainer road that has ever made me give up was Givens 3x3 at 110-120-130 and another set at 130-120-110.


3x20 @ 90-95 on other hand is an absolute horror.
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Re: V02 max intervals on the bike (Trainer Road) [Dirt fighter] [ In reply to ]
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Dirt fighter wrote:
So glad this came up today. My ftp is 330 and I had been sailing through the sprint base and build faze. Was gonna bump up my ftp and then came the 3' vo2max intervals. I dropped by the third one and couldn't hold more than 110% . On the last one I was pretty motivated and held 120% for the first min, fell off the second and reached deep on the third min and got back up to 120%. Needless to say I was a bit demoralized. This thread made me feel better :-) .
P.s. Its good to let people In your home know when your doing vo2 max intervals. My wife heard me one day and thought I was being stabbed to death.

Early Thursday mornings are my hard interval day. Last week my wife got up earlier than usual and heard me 'huffing' through the end of my intervals - she thought something was horribly wrong. She often reminds me that I'm choosing to do this to myself! :)

Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
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