USAT Olympic Nationals 2015 - Swim Times & Goals

Oct 1, 14 11:33

Post #1 of 28 (4488 views)

I am currently planning on going, as my "A" race next year. So... I decided to look at the AG results from 2014.

Ho - lee - shirt...

The winning swim time in my AG was 20:00 flat. I looked at the course, and it does not appear possible for it to have been downstream in both directions, considering that it started and ended at the same place. Barring miracles of physics, that is a really fast swim.

So here I sit, all proud of myself for my top-5%-of-finishers swim times this year and see that I need to cut at least 5 minutes from my time to be competitive there. (not FOP, just competitive!)

I don't even know if that's possible - for an adult-onset swimmer to cut that much time in less than a year. I just sent in my US Masters membership and I plan to start attending those practices, but is this goal even possible? And if so: what tack should I take? One of the fishies on here dropped a comment a few weeks ago, implying that getting someone to do an IM swim in under an hour is as easy as getting them to swim a 1:05 100Y. (piece of cake, right?) My question is this: do the energies get focused on intensity (i.e. 100Y repeats with decreasing time goals) or increases in net distance?

Given that my target distance only represents 20-or-so minutes of the event, I'm leaning towards increasing intensity rather than distance - still trying to fit workouts within the confines of an hour in the pool. In addition, I'm thinking that the really hard interval swims should be like cycling - once a week. As it is now, those flat-out days will wipe me out for the remainder of the day, whether they be bike or swim. It doesn't seem like a good idea to stress the system like that more frequently.

I'm currently at about 10,000Y per week, about 2000Y per workout. I've been doing a lot of kicking and one-arm drills to try to specifically address a weird pull with my left arm (when I breathe to the right, my reaching arm goes down, head goes up, ass goes down, etc.), and I've given myself six weeks to do that while I recover from the 2014 season. After that, it's back to the grindstone, but I need a plan.

What sayeth the fishies?

Re: USAT Olympic Nationals 2015 - Swim Times & Goals [benjpi] [ In reply to ]

Oct 1, 14 11:46

Post #2 of 28 (4465 views)

Do you mean the swim time of the winner of your age group was 20:00?

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Re: USAT Olympic Nationals 2015 - Swim Times & Goals [klehner] [ In reply to ]

Oct 1, 14 11:59

Post #3 of 28 (4455 views)

Quote:

Do you mean the swim time of the winner of your age group was 20:00?

yep.

Overall fastest swim was an AG woman who swam in 17:24. First out of the water in my AG was 108th out of the water overall.

It must have been like swimming inside of a carwash, with that many arms swinging around....

Re: USAT Olympic Nationals 2015 - Swim Times & Goals [benjpi] [ In reply to ]

Oct 1, 14 12:03

Post #4 of 28 (4450 views)

Hard to tell, seems like you are saying you swim a 25 minute oly at the moment? If so, that's not that bad, and indicates your form is probably good enough to work on some intensity. Lose the drills. I would agree that swimming fast 100 yd intervals is better than distance sets for Oly, but I'd also say up your workouts by 1K, it won't take that much longer and you'll around 14K a week.

If your time is slower than 25, I'd suggest a coach to look at stroke and make some improvements. Then the above.

I swam a 22 and change at 2014 nats, usually that gets me near the pointy end, but there it was not even top 1/4.

If the fastest swim in your AG was 20 flat, that's actually a couple minutes behind the really fast guys

ETA - We are in the same AG group if you're talking about Ken's friend

Last edited by: ChrisM: Oct 1, 14 12:09

Re: USAT Olympic Nationals 2015 - Swim Times & Goals [benjpi] [ In reply to ]

Oct 1, 14 12:03

Post #5 of 28 (4445 views)

benjpi wrote:

Quote:

Do you mean the swim time of the winner of your age group was 20:00?

yep.

Overall fastest swim was an AG woman who swam in 17:24. First out of the water in my AG was 108th out of the water overall.

It must have been like swimming inside of a carwash, with that many arms swinging around....

You mean Doug Clark? FWIW, I beat him in the swim at the NJ Triathlon this year by about :25. Both of us are "adult onset" swimmers, believe it or not. I can tell you what it took/takes for me to get to that speed, although that may not work in your case.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Re: USAT Olympic Nationals 2015 - Swim Times & Goals [klehner] [ In reply to ]

Oct 1, 14 12:52

Post #6 of 28 (4378 views)

Yep, Doug. You beat him? Congrats to you!

I understand that things get weird at the pointy end. I know it might not work for a variety of reasons, but I'd be interested in hearing it.

Re: USAT Olympic Nationals 2015 - Swim Times & Goals [benjpi] [ In reply to ]

Oct 1, 14 12:52

Post #7 of 28 (4378 views)

I've been coaching AO Swimmers for 12 years now, I'll throw in some observations, take them for what they are worth.

First, think about what you would do and what sort of time investment you would consider if you needed to drop 20% from your run time. Or bike time, in one season. Just consider that, say you rode 1:20 this year and next year need to ride 1:04. You ran 45 and need to run 36. What sort of consistent volume are you now thinking you need to address that issue? 7 hours per week? 8? 12? Answer that in your own head. Oh also consider if you would immediately dismiss it as impractical.

Now, was the answer 3.5? Because whether we admit it or not, many of us think in our head that we just need restructure some things in our 3 or 4 workouts per week and the swim will come around. It's wishful thinking. Fact is if you want to drop 20% off of your swim time and you aren't just fresh into swimming in the last 6 weeks, you are looking at similarish times to the times above for running and biking for the swim.

Second, you already know if you are a responder in swimming. Some people are and some aren't my hypothesis is the ones who are are the ones who can make appropriate stroke changes for themselves permanent. That is to say they partly have an innate sense of what they need to do, but also given outside influence they can take the outside influence, make it make sense for themselves and then incorporate it permanently into their stroke in a very short time. But it doesn't matter, you already know whether you are or not. So keep that in mind when you think about what you are going to need to put in, or whether it's even possible.

Re: USAT Olympic Nationals 2015 - Swim Times & Goals [benjpi] [ In reply to ]

Oct 1, 14 13:08

Post #8 of 28 (4357 views)

benjpi wrote:

I am currently planning on going, as my "A" race next year. So... I decided to look at the AG results from 2014.

Ho - lee - shirt...

The winning swim time in my AG was 20:00 flat. I looked at the course, and it does not appear possible for it to have been downstream in both directions, considering that it started and ended at the same place. Barring miracles of physics, that is a really fast swim.

20 flat is pretty slow on the national scale, especially for M 45-49 a these guys haven't yet lost their strength. My AG winner was sub 18 (M 30-34). That seems pretty accurate for a protected, cool water, wetsuit swim in L. Michigan. And pretty much on par with what I was swimming in similar conditions on 16-20k/week. And I started racing at 6. You're going to need to swim more... A lot more. An easy day should be something like 800 w/u, 20x100 + 10x50, 500 c/d. 4-5 sessions/week.

Re: USAT Olympic Nationals 2015 - Swim Times & Goals [Kevin in MD] [ In reply to ]

Oct 1, 14 13:14

Post #9 of 28 (4350 views)

Quote:

First, think about what you would do and what sort of time investment you would consider if you needed to drop 20% from your run time. Or bike time, in one season. Just consider that, say you rode 1:20 this year and next year need to ride 1:04. You ran 45 and need to run 36. What sort of consistent volume are you now thinking you need to address that issue? 7 hours per week? 8? 12? Answer that in your own head. Oh also consider if you would immediately dismiss it as impractical.

I don't think it's apples to apples. My bike time is such that I need about 3-4% to get to goal, and I know that some of that is simply my gear (converted round-tube road bike). The run is different, in that I need to recover from an injury - but assuming that works it's less than 10% there too.

The swim is different - in that so much of swim performance seems to be related to personal drag and technique. I can make myself hurt in the pool just like I can on the bike, but I'm just not getting to the same "relative" pace. I mean I can waste energy in the pool like nobody's business, but that isn't making me fast.

I don't have a problem with assigning some more time, but to what end? Is it really as simple as Eddy Merckx advice transferred to the pool ("ride lots")? If the focus needs to be on speed (intervals) then I'm less sure that just more of them is the answer, as those efforts are punishing. Like I said, flat-out bike work is something I only do once every 4-5 days during a build period. Does that mean that on alternate days I should dial the pace down and just slog out hours?

Re: USAT Olympic Nationals 2015 - Swim Times & Goals [benjpi] [ In reply to ]

Oct 1, 14 13:20

Post #10 of 28 (4336 views)

I was also there this year with ChrisM competing in M45-49. I swam 23 and change. The one thing I felt that despite being very crowded the first 1/4 and me feeling like I was having a terrible time of it, the course ended up being "fast" if you catch meaning. I swam 2X per week about 6000 yards and had no business swimming 23. Thank God it's a triathlon, though. :)

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
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Re: USAT Olympic Nationals 2015 - Swim Times & Goals [benjpi] [ In reply to ]

Oct 1, 14 13:46

Post #11 of 28 (4298 views)

I know 3 people who went 22:04, 22:05 and 22:07 this year.

I beat them in the swim by 3:40, 3:48 and 3:15 when racing head to head the past 15 months. In the 3:15 race I did not wear a wetsuit, the other guy did. I think you can agree that I would have been somewhere around 18:30 +/- :10 at USAT Nationals this year.

I can tell you I am not capable of going 18:30 in an OWS unless there is something "helping" me. It may have been short, it may have a favorable current, I don't know. My guess is that a 20:00 swim (on that course this year) could be accomplished by someone who can swim 20 x 100s on a 1:25 interval coming in around 1:15 on each one.

Re: USAT Olympic Nationals 2015 - Swim Times & Goals [benjpi] [ In reply to ]

Oct 1, 14 14:01

Post #12 of 28 (4274 views)

benjpi wrote:

Like I said, flat-out bike work is something I only do once every 4-5 days during a build period. Does that mean that on alternate days I should dial the pace down and just slog out hours?

I got cut of and I think my answer came out to be obtuse.

To cut 20% off of any discipline, swim, cycle, run, row, or even darts, for an established athlete you are looking at LARGE volume. Just shuffling your training mix won't get it.

I'd say something like 12 weeks at 8 or so hours per week is something you are looking at, assuming you're a responder to get your sustainable pace down by 20 seconds per 100. If it happens faster than that, great, but I'd be prepared for it to be more. That would include technique work, and intervals structured so that they span the gamut of sprint work to pure endurance, it owuldn't be JUST anything it would cover everything. You need to drop 20 seconds off of your sustainable pace per 100 in one season, that's huge.

Re: USAT Olympic Nationals 2015 - Swim Times & Goals [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]

Oct 1, 14 15:12

Post #13 of 28 (4220 views)

ajthomas wrote:

I know 3 people who went 22:04, 22:05 and 22:07 this year.

I beat them in the swim by 3:40, 3:48 and 3:15 when racing head to head the past 15 months. In the 3:15 race I did not wear a wetsuit, the other guy did. I think you can agree that I would have been somewhere around 18:30 +/- :10 at USAT Nationals this year.

I can tell you I am not capable of going 18:30 in an OWS unless there is something "helping" me. It may have been short, it may have a favorable current, I don't know. My guess is that a 20:00 swim (on that course this year) could be accomplished by someone who can swim 20 x 100s on a 1:25 interval coming in around 1:15 on each one.

I swam 18:40 without pushing too hard and with poor sighting choices.
My guess is that I could swim 1650 yards in the pool in about 18:40.
(That would be hard, with turns and a dive). I doubt the wetsuit helps that much.
I think that course might be about 40-60 seconds "fast".

How to go from 25-21 on the swim?
In swimming there there are incremental improvements but there are also major jumps that can be had.
One day you are doing something wrong, a weak later maybe not.
It will take a couple of "break throughs" to make the improvement.
It is not impossible.

Re: USAT Olympic Nationals 2015 - Swim Times & Goals [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]

Oct 1, 14 15:15

Post #14 of 28 (4214 views)

Quote:

The one thing I felt that despite being very crowded the first 1/4 and me feeling like I was having a terrible time of it, the course ended up being "fast" if you catch meaning.

I thought overall swim times were faster than last year, and conditions were similar. They moved the swim exit this year. Last year you swam under the bridge twice, so it's possible the swim was a little short.

Re: USAT Olympic Nationals 2015 - Swim Times & Goals [Supersquid] [ In reply to ]

Oct 1, 14 16:39

Post #15 of 28 (4153 views)

Supersquid wrote:

Quote:

The one thing I felt that despite being very crowded the first 1/4 and me feeling like I was having a terrible time of it, the course ended up being "fast" if you catch meaning.

I thought overall swim times were faster than last year, and conditions were similar. They moved the swim exit this year. Last year you swam under the bridge twice, so it's possible the swim was a little short.

Not short, just dealing with less congestion at that bridge with athletes going out and coming in.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

Re: USAT Olympic Nationals 2015 - Swim Times & Goals [benjpi] [ In reply to ]

Oct 1, 14 17:54

Post #16 of 28 (4106 views)

FWIW I swam 20:15 this year. I did the practice swim the day before and there was a slight current going under the bridge. I didn't notice one anywhere else. You also could hug the rocks on the left for the single left-hand turn rather than going around the buoys. I verified this ahead of time, and that could have shortened the course a bit.

One other thing- there are rarely such large packs of FOP swimmers in a race. I was able to draft a pack for much of the swim; I'm sure that benefited me.

Re: USAT Olympic Nationals 2015 - Swim Times & Goals [benjpi] [ In reply to ]

Oct 1, 14 18:04

Post #17 of 28 (4093 views)

It is a fast swim. The way the lake feeds in, I think there is a clockwise current in the inlet, which benefits the swim. I swam about 60 sec faster there than I usually would.

Re: USAT Olympic Nationals 2015 - Swim Times & Goals [integrator] [ In reply to ]

Oct 1, 14 19:41

Post #18 of 28 (4035 views)

The swim was the same, the fastest guys (m20-24) swam the same exact time as 2013. 2014 was a fast and deep race in all AG's because of worlds in Chicago, it will be fast but less deep next year probably back to 2013 level. Pretty much everyone I know (myself included) went faster and finished with a worse place. So worry less about it.

Re: USAT Olympic Nationals 2015 - Swim Times & Goals [benjpi] [ In reply to ]

Oct 2, 14 5:05

Post #19 of 28 (3953 views)

I would say the swim at Nationals was "fast" because the conditions are quite ideal. Wetsuit swim, calm water in an inlet, easy sighting, and not terribly crowded despite the number of athletes. The other big effect to consider is drafting, people who would normally go 22 in an Oly can catch a nice pack to draft in so they get pulled along at a 21 or 20. So for you, that's also practicing race strategy, not only yardage in the pool. I dropped almost a minute in my 2014 nationals swim from 2013, and my training remained pretty much the same. I think I just got better and more aggressive at catching the pack from the start, and knowing who to draft off of and who not to. As far as training goes, I would definitely opt for more intensity rather than just distance. I'd do aerobic sets of 100s and 200s rather than 500s or something.

http://trainingwheelsrequired.wordpress.com
@KellyNCollier

Re: USAT Olympic Nationals 2015 - Swim Times & Goals [kncollier2] [ In reply to ]

Oct 2, 14 5:52

Post #20 of 28 (3921 views)

Yeah, either all that or it was short.

Re: USAT Olympic Nationals 2015 - Swim Times & Goals [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]

Oct 2, 14 6:02

Post #21 of 28 (3912 views)

ajthomas wrote:

Yeah, either all that or it was short.

According to my Garmin it was spot in.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

Re: USAT Olympic Nationals 2015 - Swim Times & Goals [benjpi] [ In reply to ]

Oct 2, 14 6:54

Post #22 of 28 (3878 views)

Is it a sure thing that it is going to be in Milwaukee next year? The 2013 announcement re: the 2014 site was made on Oct. 1.

I agree with the others re: why the swim course was fast. Lots of athletes who could swim fast and straight definitely helped me go faster than normal.

Re: USAT Olympic Nationals 2015 - Swim Times & Goals [xc800runner] [ In reply to ]

Oct 2, 14 11:10

Post #23 of 28 (3774 views)

xc800runner wrote:

benjpi wrote:

I am currently planning on going, as my "A" race next year. So... I decided to look at the AG results from 2014.

Ho - lee - shirt...

The winning swim time in my AG was 20:00 flat. I looked at the course, and it does not appear possible for it to have been downstream in both directions, considering that it started and ended at the same place. Barring miracles of physics, that is a really fast swim.

20 flat is pretty slow on the national scale, especially for M 45-49 a these guys haven't yet lost their strength. My AG winner was sub 18 (M 30-34). That seems pretty accurate for a protected, cool water, wetsuit swim in L. Michigan. And pretty much on par with what I was swimming in similar conditions on 16-20k/week. And I started racing at 6. You're going to need to swim more... A lot more. An easy day should be something like 800 w/u, 20x100 + 10x50, 500 c/d. 4-5 sessions/week.

If 20:00 flat for a M45-49 is "pretty slow", what do you call a 58:50 bike for a M30-34?

:)

Scott

Re: USAT Olympic Nationals 2015 - Swim Times & Goals [WiScott] [ In reply to ]

Oct 2, 14 11:21

Post #24 of 28 (3753 views)

For a wetsuit swim in dead calm water, at a national champs? Yep. That's not a very fast time. The bike course looked a bit faster than normal, too. I've raced with the guy who was 2nd overall a few times in the past and he's never been a 1:51 on a fair course (I'd suggest somewhere around 1:54-1:55 unless he's really stepped it up). I didn't do the race this year, but it looks like the bike was ~2 min fast, swim maybe 30 sec to a minute, and run was pretty fair.

So, assuming that 58:50 was your bike time, I'd say it's solid. Not top tier on that track, but no slouch. And it's on par with anything I've ever put out in a triathlon.

Last edited by: xc800runner: Oct 2, 14 11:27

Re: USAT Olympic Nationals 2015 - Swim Times & Goals [Kevin in MD] [ In reply to ]

Oct 3, 14 5:10

Post #25 of 28 (3657 views)

Thanks Kevin. Looks like the volume has to go up to "set" the long-term muscle memory, combined with more focused drill & interval work. The problem I have right now is that my long slow swims tend to revert and set to the "wrong" muscle memory, whereas I can maintain better form at much faster paces as long as I let myself recover between the units - if I don't give myself 10-15 seconds between 100Y shots then my form goes to pot and stays there. So what I'm doing now is building "breaks" into the sets, where after 5 x 100 I'll do 100 kicking.

I'm hopeful that the Master's group will help.

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