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Re: USAT Age Group Champs thread [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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Also, a lot of penalties given out during both races. USAT was enforcing everything in its rule book; unfortunately USAT hasn't provided a list of what the exact infractions were for each athlete. I was glad to see so many officials on the bike course. The athletes were forewarned at the race briefing of what officials would be really focusing upon - one of which was having your race bib visible on the front of your body during the entire run and especially at the finish.

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Re: USAT Age Group Champs thread [More Cowbell] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, there were a lot of race marshals on motorbikes. As much as I support penalizing drafting, I found myself, to my surprise, feeling kind of terrorized. I kept worrying about gray area situations where riders in front of me over-slowed for turns so suddenly I was unexpectedly right on top of them. Or I'd be behind and catching up, while maintaining some L/R offset. But then they'd shift abruptly left/right and I'd lose the offset. Or riders bunching up on each hill, sometime so bunched that the lane was entirely blocked.

I've been doing tri's, off and on, for a long time. But those races were tiny compared to Nats. There's always been few cyclists around me that the real problem is navigation, not drafting avoidance. It was new to my experience to have to worry about it so much.

I didn't have any experience with race marshals. I had no idea if, for example, there was informal agreement like "no one cares about proximity in a steep climb" or "no one cares if riders are (precisely) side-by-side for a bit".

In my mind I was very aggressive about making sure that I either stayed 4 bike lengths back and a meter left/right, or I hustled on by. But I worried constantly that some ref on a motorbike 40m behind me might be in a lousy position to tell 4m back from 2m back and decide that I was drafting.

Twice I had to dart left while passing and I touched, but didn't cross, the yellow line. In both cases I was in the middle of passing someone and they inexplicably darted left so I had to go left also. I was instantly mortified that maybe there was some ref behind me now noting my #.

I was just about to pass a guy and he suddenly darted left into my path. I hit the brakes and darted right to avoid. But that put me beside him and passing on the right, a big no no. So, grinding my teeth, I slowed down even more, got back behind him, moved to his left and made the pass.

There were an awful lot of slower cyclist that had to be passed, and many of them bunched up at turns, or they bunched up as they passed other riders that were slower still. Every time someone in front of me did something unexpected that created geometry that a ref at some vantage point might hold against me, I imagined a ref 30m behind me writing my # down. It was a frequent source of stress.

I guess I need to better understand what the refs are briefed so I can better read their minds. And I just need to get more used to high profile races that have refs everywhere. I'm all for strict rules re. drafting so I certainly have to be supportive of the refs being aggressive.

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"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: USAT Age Group Champs thread [HandHeartCrown] [ In reply to ]
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HandHeartCrown wrote:
If you followed the sight buoys on the return leg, you swam long. The buoys we're laid out such the they arced out (i.e. convex). This was not obvious from the start dock but very obvious if one looked from the swim exit.
It seemed as though many people were starting on the Iowa side, instead of the Nebraska side, and swimming to the first turn buoy. I swam from the NE side, for the turn buoy, made the turns as tightly as I could, and then sighted the swim exit.

I wound up w/ about 80m long on Sat., and 50m long on Sun. Talking to others in the NormaTec tent, this seems to reconcile with what others had for the swim distance, too.

Did you get a long course on either day?

no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here
Last edited by: philly1x: Aug 14, 17 13:51
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Re: USAT Age Group Champs thread [philly1x] [ In reply to ]
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Just replying to the most recent post because it's handy.

Another point of reference about the swim...and a quick summary of my race.

I started at the far/south end of the dock and completely disregarded the orange sight bouys, but chose to swim directly for the first yellow turn bouy. I sighted every third or fourth stroke to make sure I was as straight as possible. My Garmin file shows a pretty straight line, but has my swim at 1765 yds. That's about 115 meters long, which explains the extra 2 minutes beyond what I was hoping for. Maybe I was not swimming as straight as I thought. Or maybe starting at the far end did actually add some distance. Either way, any added distance didn't help me at all as a weak swimmer (which is true for the olympic distance in general). I wasn't last (of my wave) out of the water, but there were ladies from the following wave running to transition ahead of me (I'm not a lady so they clearly weren't from my wave).

My bike went well. I really liked the course. A good mix of sweeping turns, small rollers, and a couple of steep climbs. I was geared wrong (39-23) and ended up mashing 350 watts for what felt like an eternity up the big hill on the way out. That left turn at the bottom of the same hill on the way back to town scared the sh*t out me when I drove the course the night before. By that time, I had already dropped my bike off in transition. I was confident my front brake was set up as good as it could be. However, my rear brake is finicky and I hadn't taken any extra time to dial it in precisely. The "Oh sh*t" factor got worse when I got back to the hotel and looked at some Strava ride of the same course in 2016. There were dudes hitting 53 mph down that hill. The speed alone didn't necessarily scare me, but the left turn certainly did. The result...I was the pansie sitting up and riding the brakes most of the way down. I'm sure I lost 30 seconds, but I lived to type this.

The congestion on the bike was a blessing and a curse. I've never raced in a large field like that. As such, I've never had to navigate through 200+ slower riders while trying to stay legal. VI was higher as a result, but I clearly got an advantage from slipstreaming past so many people. BBS had predicted 1:05:xx on 240 watts. I finished the bike about 15 watts under goal but in 1:04:xx.

The first couple miles of the run went fine, but it went downhill from there. I ended up walking the last few aid stations and going about 10 minutes longer than I had hoped to. I didn't understand what was wrong at the time other than my heart rate was high and I just couldn't run. I had consumed one bottle of water and a half bottle gatorade on the bike, but I'm pretty sure I was still dehydrated by the midpoint of the run. It took four bottles of water, a gatorade, a Diet Pepsi at Arby's, and about 150 miles of driving toward home before I had a good pee. Maybe I didn't hydrate well enough in the 48 hrs prior to the race.

Overall, I did not perform up to my expectations, but I had a fun weekend in Omaha at a great zoo with the kids and at the race.
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Re: USAT Age Group Champs thread [Signal8] [ In reply to ]
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That downhill was the fastest I've ever been on my tri bike.

About half way down I had to move off the bars to the hoods, if it was straight I might have stayed on them but the kink at the bottom was the clincher.
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Re: USAT Age Group Champs thread [SteveM] [ In reply to ]
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That was a fun descent. I sat down on my toptube, but kept my hands by my brakes, instead of keeping them on the extensions.



no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here
Last edited by: philly1x: Aug 14, 17 19:30
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Re: USAT Age Group Champs thread [More Cowbell] [ In reply to ]
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More Cowbell wrote:
Also, a lot of penalties given out during both races. USAT was enforcing everything in its rule book; unfortunately USAT hasn't provided a list of what the exact infractions were for each athlete. I was glad to see so many officials on the bike course. The athletes were forewarned at the race briefing of what officials would be really focusing upon - one of which was having your race bib visible on the front of your body during the entire run and especially at the finish.

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yeah, i am super careful about the rules and drafting, but i got a penalty for my bib not being visible on the run. it is nitpicky i think and and i am a bit upset. my Garmin chest strap kept falling down under my trikit and i think it took me a mile to sort out that and other things and by then i had probably gotten dinged for the bib. i am a big fan of good marshalling on the course but just don't understand with how many race numbers we had on why this was so much of a focus for usat. most of the guys in my ahe group who got a penalty got it for race numbers. thst does not constitute a safety or a fairness problem.

besides that i was also super disappointed in my race. :(

2018 Races: IM Santa Rosa, Vineman Monte Rio, Lake Tahoe 70.3
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Re: USAT Age Group Champs thread [Sanrafaeltri] [ In reply to ]
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Does seem odd to be handing out a bunch of bib penalties. Given the athlete could be identified via the arm/leg tats to be penalized what's the point?
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Re: USAT Age Group Champs thread [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
For the life of me I may not understand the AG qualification protocol in regards to aging up.

So 18 spots per age group. So what happens if 10 are aging up to next AG? Does only 8 from the older group make it?

Or is it 18 per age group on race day + roll downs....then they figure out which AG you actually will race in?
If those 10 aging up have a better time than people in the upper age group, they'll move them out of qualification. In my experience it tends to be a wash... but if you're in the 15 - 18 spot on race day, you're on the bubble about getting in that day. You will get in though eventually, I've never my AG slots get locked in other than Chicago.

They take the race time and create the AG with ages of everyone the following year for TeamUSA qualification. However that works out is a variable you just can't predict... if you're in that top 18 - 25 I'd say go to awards, see if your name is on the paper on the wall in the top 18 with this age up adjustment. If you're in the top 18, you go to another room they open as they start AG awards, look yourself up in the iPad, confirm/change your contact info... that's it. Wait for an e-mail in the following couple of weeks to pay your $50 admin fee.

Omaha went well for me considering I fractured my back in four places, major concussion, etc. on March 1st. I rode my 1x 54t and 11-28 setup and spun up the hill okay, just not in the cycling shape I normally am yet. I liked having the the run course adjusted to a 2 lap course. All in all, things went well and felt like USAT put on a nice race. Enjoyed my time in Omaha and found some things to do, breweries to visit and decent restaurants. The ability to leave your bike in transition for the Sprint was nice too.

It seemed like there were a ton of officials on the bike course... every time I made a pass I'd look left to make sure a motorcycle was creeping up beside me. The app was pretty good too, with updates, info and tracking... my wife, kids at home and others found it very useful. My now adult children got together with the app loaded and had the stream going on a TV and were able to see me finish... of course they gave me grief for not doing anything fancy at the finish line in the Olympic.

Looking forward to Cleveland! Locked in a spot for Australia, which was my wife's goal for me... she's pretty pumped.
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Re: USAT Age Group Champs thread [xeon] [ In reply to ]
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I had a junior race, and he made it going to Aussie land next year. I liked the app as I could "follow" his progress (i assume they had timing mats along the course and the app just calculated where he was the whole time) on each leg.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: USAT Age Group Champs thread [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Drafting up a steep incline. If the riders get bunched up because of a steep climb, is that drafting? If it is "theoretically" drafting, maybe there is an informal convention to not hold that kind of thing against the rider? On each climb I worked my way past numerous riders, but it almost certainly took me longer than 15secs to do it.

Bib # in front during the run. I had no idea this was a rule. I had my # in front, only because that's what I'm used to doing. I did see that lots of folks had their #'s in back. Geeze, I feel like I dodged that one only out of dumb luck.

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"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: USAT Age Group Champs thread [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
Drafting up a steep incline. If the riders get bunched up because of a steep climb, is that drafting? If it is "theoretically" drafting, maybe there is an informal convention to not hold that kind of thing against the rider? On each climb I worked my way past numerous riders, but it almost certainly took me longer than 15secs to do it.

Bib # in front during the run. I had no idea this was a rule. I had my # in front, only because that's what I'm used to doing. I did see that lots of folks had their #'s in back. Geeze, I feel like I dodged that one only out of dumb luck.

Rule has always been bib number in the front. Do most folks race in Tri's but never read the rules, ever?

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Re: USAT Age Group Champs thread [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
RangerGress wrote:
Drafting up a steep incline. If the riders get bunched up because of a steep climb, is that drafting? If it is "theoretically" drafting, maybe there is an informal convention to not hold that kind of thing against the rider? On each climb I worked my way past numerous riders, but it almost certainly took me longer than 15secs to do it.

Bib # in front during the run. I had no idea this was a rule. I had my # in front, only because that's what I'm used to doing. I did see that lots of folks had their #'s in back. Geeze, I feel like I dodged that one only out of dumb luck.


Rule has always been bib number in the front. Do most folks race in Tri's but never read the rules, ever?
I guess since I automatically put the bib # in front, I never actually paid attention to the fact that there's a rule requiring it.

I would say, yes, most folks doing Tri's haven't carefully read the rules. Culturally, this is not an American strength. Those that don't agree should go spend some time in Germany. Those folks are serious about rules.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart
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Re: USAT Age Group Champs thread [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I had a junior race, and he made it going to Aussie land next year. I liked the app as I could "follow" his progress (i assume they had timing mats along the course and the app just calculated where he was the whole time) on each leg.

Timing mats were at swim exit, bike start, bike turn-around (both races), run start, run turn-around (both races) and the finish.
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Re: USAT Age Group Champs thread [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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RangerGress wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
RangerGress wrote:
Drafting up a steep incline. If the riders get bunched up because of a steep climb, is that drafting? If it is "theoretically" drafting, maybe there is an informal convention to not hold that kind of thing against the rider? On each climb I worked my way past numerous riders, but it almost certainly took me longer than 15secs to do it.

Bib # in front during the run. I had no idea this was a rule. I had my # in front, only because that's what I'm used to doing. I did see that lots of folks had their #'s in back. Geeze, I feel like I dodged that one only out of dumb luck.


Rule has always been bib number in the front. Do most folks race in Tri's but never read the rules, ever?
I guess since I automatically put the bib # in front, I never actually paid attention to the fact that there's a rule requiring it.

I would say, yes, most folks doing Tri's haven't carefully read the rules. Culturally, this is not an American strength. Those that don't agree should go spend some time in Germany. Those folks are serious about rules.

yep

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: USAT Age Group Champs thread [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I got hit with a 6 min penalty. Anyone know how I can find out what it was for? A small group of us got bunched up going up a hill on the bike and I saw a motorcycle taking notes but I'd like to know specifically what I did so wrong.
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Re: USAT Age Group Champs thread [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure where to find the actual penalties, but 6:00 of penalties means you got dinged twice. 3 times and it's a DQ.

1st- 2:00
2nd- 4:00
3rd- DQ

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: USAT Age Group Champs thread [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
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Often times you'll get hit with a position penalty, meaning you're left of a rider/pace line and you have only so may seconds to get ahead of them or fall back. If you're not single file, you'd better be passing somebody.
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Re: USAT Age Group Champs thread [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
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If you had 6 minutes in penalties, then you had two of them: the first one for 2 minutes, the second one for an additional 4. You should be able to set an email address from the USAT websie.

To the earlier poster: a lot of what you're wondering about was covered in the briefing on Friday. Bib numbers needed to be worn on the run. They would not penalize for drafting on the big hill, but would penalize for blocking. Your 15 second time starts either when the official gets close enough to see that you're inside the 3 bike length draft zone, or if they're behind you and see you're riding left and aren't actively passing the next rider up the line.

If you're back at least 3 bike lengths, you should still stay to the right, even if you're lined up with the bike in front of you. If you move to the left to try to show that you 'aren't drafting', but you aren't passing, you now might be riding too far left and subject to either a position or blocking penalty.
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Re: USAT Age Group Champs thread [Peanut] [ In reply to ]
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Peanut wrote:
If you had 6 minutes in penalties, then you had two of them: the first one for 2 minutes, the second one for an additional 4. You should be able to set an email address from the USAT websie.

To the earlier poster: a lot of what you're wondering about was covered in the briefing on Friday. Bib numbers needed to be worn on the run. They would not penalize for drafting on the big hill, but would penalize for blocking. Your 15 second time starts either when the official gets close enough to see that you're inside the 3 bike length draft zone, or if they're behind you and see you're riding left and aren't actively passing the next rider up the line.

If you're back at least 3 bike lengths, you should still stay to the right, even if you're lined up with the bike in front of you. If you move to the left to try to show that you 'aren't drafting', but you aren't passing, you now might be riding too far left and subject to either a position or blocking penalty.

3 bike lengths on a crowded course seems like a lot. A bunch of us got packed together and if I remember correctly I moved to the left in order not to draft off one of the riders near me. If I got behind them it sounds like I was expected to really slam on the brakes or gun it to get ahead of them. Felt like a lose lose. I'll email and ask, thanks for the suggestion.
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Re: USAT Age Group Champs thread [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
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Moving left doesn't do any good. It comes down to one of 3 things:
Ride right, and keep back 3 bike lengths
If you come up behind a slower cyclist and get within 3 bike lengths, you must move up and pass on the left within 15 seconds. No yo-yo'ing in and out of the zone.
If you are passed, you must drop back the 3 bike lengths before thinking about passing again. They say 'immediately', but as long as you ease up as soon as you're passed and get out of the zone within 15, you'll be OK. No hard braking, just slow up a bit to re-establish the distance.
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Re: USAT Age Group Champs thread [Peanut] [ In reply to ]
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Peanut wrote:
Moving left doesn't do any good. It comes down to one of 3 things:
Ride right, and keep back 3 bike lengths
If you come up behind a slower cyclist and get within 3 bike lengths, you must move up and pass on the left within 15 seconds. No yo-yo'ing in and out of the zone.
If you are passed, you must drop back the 3 bike lengths before thinking about passing again. They say 'immediately', but as long as you ease up as soon as you're passed and get out of the zone within 15, you'll be OK. No hard braking, just slow up a bit to re-establish the distance.

Yep. Always have to stay to the right. And do not pass on the right, penalty if caught.

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Re: USAT Age Group Champs thread [SteveM] [ In reply to ]
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SteveM wrote:
Does seem odd to be handing out a bunch of bib penalties. Given the athlete could be identified via the arm/leg tats to be penalized what's the point?

The only "official" numbers you had to have according to the rules briefing were:
1.) the written number on your swim cap
2.) seat post sticker on bike that is visible from the left side by the officials.
3.) run bib in front of body on the run.

I would also add that mandatory but not race related were the bracelet (to get in and out of transition with bike) and the sticker on the bag drop for your morning items if you used it.

Everything else was garbage. 3 helmet stickers advertising Rudy, 2 swim cap stickers advertising Roka and 4 tri-tats advertising I can't even remember who are just extra and not looked for by the officials. I get your point that they "could" identify you from any one of these 9 other markings but that's not what they officially look for.
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Re: USAT Age Group Champs thread [ChrisT] [ In reply to ]
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ChrisT wrote:
Everything else was garbage. 3 helmet stickers advertising Rudy, 2 swim cap stickers advertising Roka and 4 tri-tats advertising I can't even remember who are just extra and not looked for by the officials. I get your point that they "could" identify you from any one of these 9 other markings but that's not what they officially look for.

Thanks for the clarification, interesting.

I'd intended to go to the briefing but the walk from the bus to transition & back was significantly longer than I'd expected. (I've got a decent list of rookie mistakes from my first nationals, at least I got no penalties)
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Re: USAT Age Group Champs thread [ChrisT] [ In reply to ]
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ChrisT wrote:
SteveM wrote:
Does seem odd to be handing out a bunch of bib penalties. Given the athlete could be identified via the arm/leg tats to be penalized what's the point?


The only "official" numbers you had to have according to the rules briefing were:
1.) the written number on your swim cap
2.) seat post sticker on bike that is visible from the left side by the officials.
3.) run bib in front of body on the run.

I would also add that mandatory but not race related were the bracelet (to get in and out of transition with bike) and the sticker on the bag drop for your morning items if you used it.

Everything else was garbage. 3 helmet stickers advertising Rudy, 2 swim cap stickers advertising Roka and 4 tri-tats advertising I can't even remember who are just extra and not looked for by the officials. I get your point that they "could" identify you from any one of these 9 other markings but that's not what they officially look for.

My run bib was on the front of my body during the run, but was squinched up as I had to keep pulling my top up to reposition my garmin heart rate monitor so it would work. My bib was 100% of the time on front and some % of time wrinkled up (i have no idea what % that would be as I looked down just after mile 1 and saw it squinched and tried to fix it and assuming I did fix it after that, it would be 1/6th of the run that my bib was up front but squinched up) and I got a penalty for it.

I think it would be great for course marshals to either talk to folks or give a smaller penalty for a bib that was hard to read. With a squinched up bib that was hard to read, i certainly was not ignoring the rules but I got the same penalty as someone who sits on someone's ass in the bike drafting for advantage.

2018 Races: IM Santa Rosa, Vineman Monte Rio, Lake Tahoe 70.3
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