Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Nice work! I have been skimming through the original aero test thread but apparently wasn't paying attention - I thought that the Felt was an IA.

For the benefit of all of the B16 riders out there (I'm on a 2012), so the Felt test frame is the same as the B16 with only the ENVE bar and TriRig brake replacements?

I was looking at the Premier Tactical as my next ride, but not that significant a gain over my Felt if this is the case.
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Grant.Reuter wrote:
My take away with all that work they got the picture or the caption wrong on page 4. I mean come on is this amateur hour here?

How is the caption wrong? Cervelo took this picture when they tested a bunch of bikes.

Team Zoot
2019 Sponsors: Canyon Bikes, Garmin, Smith Optics, Gatorade, Zealios Skin Care & Sun Protection, Speedfill Products, Base Performance, Ottolock, Theragun, Boco Gear, ORR Carbon Wheel Systems, Giddy Up Multisport
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
We wanted to keep the wheels the same across the board so ENVE's were chosen since the have a disc brake specific aero wheelset. Sourcing a Disc disc(?) was not possible given time constraints and trying to normalize wheel choices.


jeffp wrote:

also, would have preferred seeing a disk wheel in back vs open spokes, unless you are saying the cervelos designed with riders onboard were designed with non-disk wheels



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
Last edited by: Ex-cyclist: Jun 30, 17 8:41
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [Stevie_A] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Stevie_A wrote:
Firstly, great work guys, thanks.

I will never be in a position to buy a "super bike"... I'm too fat and slow and don't have the cash nor realistic desire to buy one. What I do love about this test is how well the Felt B Series did, why are we not talking about this? And as Kileyay stated... easy to travel with.

Thanks again

That was kind of my intention when I link back to the old windtunnel test of the P4. The Felt probably falls right in with the rest of the previous generation "superbikes". There are a handful of current gen superbikes that can hang with the P5-6, but it is probably safe to say that the rest are about 10 watts back. I would guess the open-mold "looks fast" frames are another 5-10 watts slower, because all those PhDs, WT time and CFD have to be good for something
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [Grill] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Grill wrote:
So my P5-3 is fastest. Already knew that. :P

I don't remember seeing the data on The P5-3 vs P5-6. At what yaw angles was the 5-3 faster?
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [Apollo71] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Jesus. Is anyone actually reading or opening the report?

"One Line Robert"
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [SBRcoffee] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
SBRcoffee wrote:
Yes, they used Kiley's old Felt.

Ah, that helps a lot, thanks.

I'm honestly even more underwhelmed with the speed advantages of these uberbikes with the strong performance of that Felt in there. Take that extra $5-10K and spend it elsewhere!
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
this tells you how close all these bikes are.

Exactly. Life is too short to ride fugly bikes. So choose based on aesthetics if aero is a wash.
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
lightheir wrote:
SBRcoffee wrote:
Yes, they used Kiley's old Felt.


Ah, that helps a lot, thanks.

I'm honestly even more underwhelmed with the speed advantages of these uberbikes with the strong performance of that Felt in there. Take that extra $5-10K and spend it elsewhere!

Well, I think you have to remember that there are many folks who know they aren't going to get any magical performance improvement, rather they just want a really nice bike!

A honda civic can get you from point A to point B just fine, but a lot of us buy a nicer car... :)
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
for the 120 of you who crowdfunded this thing, here is what you (and i) paid for, as explained on our front page article, with the link to the download.

Best $25 bucks I've spent in a loooooong time.
Glad to see this come to fruition.

"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [wsrobert] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
wsrobert wrote:
Jesus. Is anyone actually reading or opening the report?
Easy big fella... the report simply refers to a B series Felt frame. I now see in this thread that it is a 2009 frame. The question I asked is whether the tested frame is the same as the B16 frame (specifically 2012 for me) - i.e. have there been any changes to the Felt B series frame design from 2009 to 2012?
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [wsrobert] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It is interesting, on our conference call last night I brought up that people would probably just look at pictures and make comments and that we needed to ready for that. Seems to be the case.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jeffp wrote:
thoughts...how about question:

could you please post images on each bike at same yaw angle while pedalling so we can see how the positions might vary between bikes? it is obvious they do to a degree, esp tactical with non-angles arms. IMO images help a lot when looking at the runs as a whole

There are videos on the AeroCamp Facebook page. Not sure how to post images while pedaling. But here's an overlay:



Basically all Brian and Heath were doing all day was laser focused on these overlays making sure everything tracked. A lot goes into avoiding any kind of position foul and we scrapped or redid a few runs when they noticed something off.

Like Dan said with the Tactical we had no choice with the cockpit rise but that's changing soon with the new clamps
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [SBRcoffee] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
SBRcoffee wrote:
lightheir wrote:
SBRcoffee wrote:
Yes, they used Kiley's old Felt.


Ah, that helps a lot, thanks.

I'm honestly even more underwhelmed with the speed advantages of these uberbikes with the strong performance of that Felt in there. Take that extra $5-10K and spend it elsewhere!


Well, I think you have to remember that there are many folks who know they aren't going to get any magical performance improvement, rather they just want a really nice bike!

A honda civic can get you from point A to point B just fine, but a lot of us buy a nicer car... :)

Yes, you're quite right! I'll admit that I will lustily admire the curves of those most-modern-gen uberbikes any day and if I had unlimited funds, I'd buy one in a heartbeat!

That said, it's quite reassuring to know that my 2008 Cervelo P2c, which is still in really great shape, is likely neck and neck with the uberbikes in the wind tunnel.

Thanks to the team and all the funders for a great study!
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [mknight84] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
mknight84 wrote:
It still doesn't look better in person, but its good to know that at least its got a great personality.

it's like that lady (or man) who's somewhat attractive, and can quickly become much better or worse looking once he or she opens his or her mouth and starts talking.

now that the p5x has begun talking, it's going to become better looking.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It does seem that things are close. What bike is fastest seems to be decided by the type of event you ride and therefore hydration / nutrition needs.

Short TT's + some short tri's (typical UK time trial scene non UCI) with no bottles or hydration required. No need for integrated storage or hydration, possible single ring set up so removable front hanger good.

UCI style TT - UCI legal set-up one frame mounted UCI aceptable bottle (depending on distance/hear etc). Probably 2x gearing as courses often more sporting than a UK drag strip course.

Olympic Tri and 50mile TT
Not UCI legal - one or two bottles worth of fluid and a storage for a few gels & maybe flat kit.

70.3/IM's/100mile TT's
Non UCI - Hydration 2 + bottles worth of fluid, ability to store handed up standard bottles or pour fluid into hydration storage, nutrition gels/food storage + flat kit storage.
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [Apollo71] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Apollo71 wrote:
wsrobert wrote:
Jesus. Is anyone actually reading or opening the report?

Easy big fella... the report simply refers to a B series Felt frame. I now see in this thread that it is a 2009 frame. The question I asked is whether the tested frame is the same as the B16 frame (specifically 2012 for me) - i.e. have there been any changes to the Felt B series frame design from 2009 to 2012?

To clear this up, the B series changed in between 2012 and 2013. The 2013 model is (in my opinion) basically a DA with a less aero (alloy) fork with a non-integrated brake.

It's possible the 2012 is a little slower, but I just don't think we're talking about all that much. And honestly I don't believe the IA is faster than the DA or (well-configured) B series at low yaw. At high yaw, sure. But it's also heavy. Kind of crazy how all of a sudden weight seems relevant again in light of how narrow these aero margins are. On Chattanooga 70.3 course a 4.5 lb difference makes like 10 seconds of difference, which is basically the weight difference between a P5 and P5-X (I suspect, no data). And that's a flattish course.
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
kileyay wrote:
I just don't understand how people can eat real food during a triathlon. Most people figure out how to get liquid calories.


this is why, in my opinion, both the andean and the p5x are so, so, so much the future of bikes. both companies built bikes based on what people do, not what people ought to do. me, for example, no way can i subsist on liquid calories alone, because i get a terrible hunger knock and it slows me down greatly.

the three (plus one) relevant features of BOTH these bikes are:

1. they solve real world storage imperatives;
2. they are built for a variety of real behaviors, not optimized behaviors;
3. they are built for the apparent yaws real people ride;
4. they stop when you apply the brakes.

certainly other bikes stop when you apply the brakes. or they don't. the more exotic you make the aero bike; and the more exotic you make the aero wheel; the harder it is to get bike, brakes and wheel to work with each other. what we have right now, in another thread, and in the last 2 polls, is a discussion on optimal tire and wheel width and size. and, consquently, how many bikes cannot accommodate the optimal size.

i think i pretty clearly hear josh poertner saying that bike makers (and wheel makers) today ought to be accommodating a tire that measures 30mm in width. this ambivalence and uncertainty and impending shift in tech screams out for a disc brake solution.

your test was really well done. but as you acknowledge there were a lot of unanswered questions. i think that on balance, once all the data is parsed, the andean is going to look better and better than you apparently think it looks today. but i acknowledge that before the andean hits its peak it's going to need another stem solution. that bike wants a new stem - that has the bosses on it above which its storage solution affixed - and that can accept another bar, like a zipp or a PD.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Jun 30, 17 9:20
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [SBRcoffee] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
SBRcoffee wrote:
Nazgul350r wrote:
So buy your bike based off color. Red is always faster.


Pretty much. What has been said along along by folks like rapp, all the bikes are fast, and it boils down to all the -other- factors.
Agreed. Choosing the front end is the most important aero factor, to obtain the correct position. That's most of it. Followed by tight clothes, wheels and helmet, and then hiding cables and bottles.

I'd just like to correct that a bit and say that all modern aero bikes are fast. Go back to a tube frame and that would test pretty badly. In fact it would be exquisite taking a steel tube bike and P5X into a wind tunnel to see the difference between them.
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [Apollo71] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Apollo71 wrote:
wsrobert wrote:
Jesus. Is anyone actually reading or opening the report?

Easy big fella... the report simply refers to a B series Felt frame. I now see in this thread that it is a 2009 frame. The question I asked is whether the tested frame is the same as the B16 frame (specifically 2012 for me) - i.e. have there been any changes to the Felt B series frame design from 2009 to 2012?

Feel free to use google and the images and details from the report. But if unable...

Its actually not a 2009 B2 frame. Here is one of those (integrated fork, completely different rear triangle, etc):

Here is your 2012 B16:


And finally here is the bike in the test (2016 Felt B2):


You're welcome.

"One Line Robert"
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Supposedly you can make the P2 fast as a P5.

http://www.tririg.com/store.php?c=alpha&page=windtunnel_1


Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Slowman wrote:
now that the p5x has begun talking, it's going to become better looking.

In your opinion, sure.

If you value money, and do still care about performance - despite it being everything Cervelo said it was - the P5x is not any more or less attractive than it was before these results.

And since we're sharing opinions - for me - its now even less attractive. Everyone should run out and buy a P5. And I should kick myself for selling mine.

If you're a dentist or a wattie punk rocker, the P5x is the sure bet.

"One Line Robert"
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [layaway tay] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
layaway tay wrote:
Supposedly you can make the P2 fast as a P5.

http://www.tririg.com/store.php?c=alpha&page=windtunnel_1



sorry, but any data from Faster basically holds no sway as compared to data from real wind tunnels.

ETA - just based on those first two pics he has posted in that "review" the data is skewed before even going into a skewed tunnel. he's pedestaled his bar while the aduro is not (because it is not capable).
Last edited by: jkhayc: Jun 30, 17 9:26
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
grumpier.mike wrote:
Grill wrote:
So my P5-3 is fastest. Already knew that. :P


I don't remember seeing the data on The P5-3 vs P5-6. At what yaw angles was the 5-3 faster?

I'm specifically referring to my P5-3...
Quote Reply
Re: Triathlon Bikes in the Age of Peak Aero: here it is ;-) [wsrobert] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
wsrobert wrote:
Slowman wrote:
now that the p5x has begun talking, it's going to become better looking.


In your opinion, sure.

If you value money, and do still care about performance - despite it being everything Cervelo said it was - the P5x is not any more or less attractive than it was before these results.

And since we're sharing opinions - for me - its now even less attractive. Everyone should run out and buy a P5. And I should kick myself for selling mine.

If you're a dentist or a wattie punk rocker, the P5x is the sure bet.

i think there are 3 salient points that are routinely and repeatedly ignored by the P5X haters:

1. this is a new bike platform that is particularly priced in the halo range. felt behaves the same way with its new bike platforms. just as many bike companies do. it's proof of concept. if you don't want it, fine, cervelo makes really capable bikes at much lower prices. cervelo was always straightforward about what the P5X was and what it wasn't.

2. this platform - like felt's DA, like felt's IA, like many bikes - starts in year-1 at a high price and then descends in price in subsequent years

3. the bike is only built with a marquis groupkit, wheels, aerobars, etc. if you look at other bikes in this bike's competitive set, many are every bit or more expensive.

point 4, which is just now coming up, if you look at josh poertner's comments on wheel and tire width, if you consider this platform, it's much more likely to prove efficacious over time when paired with the aero wheels and tires you're more likely to buy next time you buy them.

you're going to get past this, robert. you're going to survive this. it's going to be okay in the end.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply

Prev Next