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Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [jens] [ In reply to ]
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Thousands of years ago, when our species was still evolving, obsessive and persistent acquisition of the very best weaponry (spears, clubs, arrows, etc.) was a trait that had tremendous survival value. For example, with a slightly improved spear, you could overwhelm an otherwise vastly superior foe, armed with the old, non-dimpled spear. So this trait was honed and bred into us through natural selection. Thus, in modern-day sport (i.e. sublimated warfare), it's only natural for us to hew to this strongly imprinted trait.

Or as my friend Brian Parr once laconically put it: "if we weren't doing this (racing bikes) we'd be off in the woods beating on each other with sticks and rocks."
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Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [roady] [ In reply to ]
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the drag/speed numbers imply a Cda around 0.245-0.255. For a small guy like Levi that's surprisingly large. Perhaps he ought to hire Jens/Tom/AC as consultants :-)

If the numbers have been 'adjusted' to protect his true data that should have been stated ...

Something does not quite compute ... else my spreadsheet is just way off.
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Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [roady] [ In reply to ]
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I'm constantly amazed at the resiliency of these threads on ST. Bottom line: the difference in aero performance of the top bikes is negligible, and more than canceled out by body position and/or the strength of the rider. So why must we continue to post wind tunnel tests, charts graphs, etc. when it really doesn't matter? Is it because it's the off-season?

IMO, it's because doing well in timed cycling events ( i.e. TTs or Tri bike legs) is ALL about attention to a BUNCH of little details. This is one of those details. It's up to the person looking at the numbers to decide if they are significant enough to worry about. They, and they alone, get to decide if it "matters".

Personally, I'm constantly amazed at how many people think that none of this stuff "matters" ;-)
Spoken like a real 'watt trader', Tom.....

Is it just me, or do those drag numbers not add up for a 130lb TT specialist??



Yeah...a CdA of ~0.25 - 0.26 does seem a bit high for Levi. But, like I've said, not knowing the details of the comparison, it's tough to put any value on the differences shown in that chart. I'm thinking the comparison may actually have been from Basso (who would've had a P3C to compare to, right?).



I've pointed out to Druber the flaws in his "watt trader" or "purchasing watts" analogy. Here's what I told him is a better analogy:

Quote:
BTW, you haven't been "purchasing watts", you've just
figured out ways to not waste them. Your engine has a
finite amount of power when it's in "peak tune", you
just want to minimize how much is wasted so that more
of that finite amount can go into what's important,
going faster! Think of it more as a conservation
program. You may need to put some up front capital
into the project, but your return on investment (i.e. speed) from the savings is huge!

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, I've stood next to Levi, and he's one of the only guys I've seen who make me feel big--and I'm in the sub .02 category! Something is fishy with those numbers?

As far as Druber, I beat a lot of guys like that simply because they cling to that attitude--so please, don't try to change his ways!
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Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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For another poster, Lieto's bottle set-up is a dremel job on the bottles themselves. The bottles are empty; he carries his fluids behind the seat in a custom Bontrager carrier.

Yes, those numbers are off if they are for Levi. Allied confirmed he tested at like 0.19, lowest they'd ever seen. You can find that somewhere.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Trek's press release stated they were for Levi ...

FWIW, 0.19 CdA would require equivalent test drag numbers in the 1475-1500g range.

Does Scott Daubert ever post here?
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Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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those numbers are off if they are for Levi. Allied confirmed he tested at like 0.19, lowest they'd ever seen.
Hmm. As Colonel Klink used to say, "interesting.....veeerrrrryyyy interesting."
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Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [rmur] [ In reply to ]
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Trek's press release stated they were for Levi ...
My guess would be that was a bit of "artistic license" based on the belief that more people have heard of Leipheimer than of Lieto (or whomever it was that was actually tested).
Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Oct 10, 07 10:24
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Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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http://biz.yahoo.com/....pf=personal-finance


In any case, what do Cervelo have to say? ;-)
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Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, I guess I'm just a dumbass, but I'm guessing that he found having the bottle on the front was better than nothing at all. I don't really understand that, but I'll take the word of people smarter then me. Nice touch with the straw coming out, that makes it not a fairing?

---------------------------------------------------

Brawndo's got what plants crave. Brawndo's got electrolytes. And that's what plants crave. They crave electrolytes. Which is what Brawndo has. And that's why plants crave Brawndo. Not water, like from the toilet.
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Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [rmur] [ In reply to ]
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"Based on Levi Leipheimer’s February 26, 2007 wind tunnel run, which scored the lowest drag numbers ever recorded at the SDLSWT by a male athlete."

Like I said: interesting....veeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyy interesting.
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Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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those numbers are off if they are for Levi. Allied confirmed he tested at like 0.19, lowest they'd ever seen.
Hmm. As Colonel Klink used to say, "interesting.....veeerrrrryyyy interesting."

Wrong fictional German soldier:



----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [rmur] [ In reply to ]
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what do Cervelo have to say? ;-)

I thought that I already covered that? :-)

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=1516581#1516581
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Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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okay .. the name Colby Pearce comes to mind ... just fishing .. .
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Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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those numbers are off if they are for Levi. Allied confirmed he tested at like 0.19, lowest they'd ever seen.
Hmm. As Colonel Klink used to say, "interesting.....veeerrrrryyyy interesting."

Wrong fictional German soldier:

Ack, you're right!
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Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [rmur] [ In reply to ]
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okay .. the name Colby Pearce comes to mind ... just fishing .. .
??
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Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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What do you find most interesting about the.019? Do you think that's low for Levi (I don't), or that they haven't tested any male athletes lower? He's pretty damn small. The only guy I can think of who's smaller (your arch enemy Kirk), and I wonder if he's even been to the tunnel.
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Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [roady] [ In reply to ]
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What do you find most interesting about the.019? Do you think that's low for Levi (I don't), or that they haven't tested any male athletes lower? He's pretty damn small.

On first mention, the fact that it was reported to be the lowest measured at San Diego.

On second mention, the fact that they felt it necessary to specify male athlete.

In any case, it doesn't surprise me at all that Leipheimer's CdA is around 0.19 m^2.
Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Oct 10, 07 10:45
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Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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The stats are not for the TTX, but rather the new TTX SSL.

Ummm...aerodynamically speaking (i.e. the "stats" shown in that plot), the TTX and TTX SSL will be identical.
Nope, the frames are in fact different (at least 07 TTX vs. 08 TTX SSL; not sure if they made the changes to all TTX models for 08). New fork, new downtube placement, and some other changes. They cover them in the article.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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err .. thinking of a 'low aero drag' male candidate .. that's all ..
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Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Hamner] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, I guess I'm just a dumbass, but I'm guessing that he found having the bottle on the front was better than nothing at all. I don't really understand that, but I'll take the word of people smarter then me. Nice touch with the straw coming out, that makes it not a fairing?
Oh, THAT bottle. I thought you were talking about his bottles on the frame, which are just dummys. I think the bottle up front is probably a functional bottle. Vineman, where that pic is taken, is a very well supported course, so you can make it the whole way with an aero bottle that you just refill at aid stations.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah...a CdA of ~0.25 - 0.26 does seem a bit high for Levi. But, like I've said, not knowing the details of the comparison, it's tough to put any value on the differences shown in that chart. I'm thinking the comparison may actually have been from Basso (who would've had a P3C to compare to, right?).
--------------------------------------------------------------

Do you remember this photo:




Note the yellow drag history that the rocket scientists at Pezcyclingnews neglected to blur out. Way back when I pixel counted that to determine that Basso's drag was, in fact, .254. I think I posted the calcs here and on weightweenies somewhere at the time.


-- jens
Last edited by: jens: Oct 10, 07 10:52
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Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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As to why it matters...because when people go and buy a new bike, lots of people would rather spend the money on what is proven to be the fastest. They may not be right, but it definitely exists!
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Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [rmur] [ In reply to ]
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err .. thinking of a 'low aero drag' male candidate .. that's all ..

Colby's CdA is in that range even when using the set-up shown here:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/...ationals074/file0081
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Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Large] [ In reply to ]
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I wish I had the time to list all of the accomplishments, gold medals, podium places, and PR performances that are or could have been achieved with a 0.2% advantage.

I can think of a half dozen records on the track that were eclipsed or fell just short by a margin WELL below 0.2%

What was the total difference between Cadel and Levi in time in TTs in this year's TdF? Do you think Levi would like that 0.2%?

Another way to look at it, 0.2% is about a quarter mile over the course of a Ironman Bike course. Do you think the '06 results or at least the drama of the finish would change if you gave Macca that 1/4 mile leaving T2?

You can claim that it doesn't matter much, but once you concede that it does matter, there is no such thing as negligible, a difference by its very nature and being is important.


-SD

https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era
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