Mark, interesting comments. One thing I have noticed now in the 50 plus age groups, in Oly and Sprint distance, are not many folks who
have done this sport for a lot of years, and doing well from a quality of life perspective. I see many now having knee issues and other things.
I have many tell me they now wish they had not run some many miles earlier in life. You also just so a lot fewer folks. Do you think older folks
lose the heart for the sport, or the body finally gives up?

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

My very unscientific opinion based only on personal experience and observation is:

1. IM/marathon type training is not good for most people.

2. High intensity (pushing yourself to the limits) training impedes the aging/slowing down process.

You aren't saying that, right? You're saying that both Oly and Ironman and sprint training is harmful to longetivity. (Though presumably not equally harmful.) Or let's take running: Let's say I adopt a reasonably moderate training plan that calls for 35 miles per week to race 10Ks. Your opinion is that such training is detrimental to long living, right?

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It's all a matter of degree (and speculation, of course). I am much more certain that hard IM or marathon training for prolonged periods can be detrimental to someone trying to maximize longevity. On the other hand, an out-of shape 30 year-old training 10 hours a week to finish an Oly once a year is probably doing him/herself a great service. Similarly, running 35 miles a week easy, with an occasional interval day so you can run 2 or 3 10ks a year would, in my model, not be a bad thing. Might even be considered "optimal" or the perfect longevity recipe if you ate properly and lifted some weights now and then. The problem comes when the ego takes over and the "more is better" syndrome kicks in. Now you have the ex-out-of-shape triathlete or runner who is now in shape and says, "how can I ramp this up and snag a medal?" That's when the liklihood of overtraining and over-carbing can start you on a path that, if not properly monitored, might increase your risk for certain degenerative or lifestyle "issues". Again, I'm not talking about guarantees here, just possiblilites increasing. Hell, I raced hard for a total of 15 years, went to the well way too often, bonked on purpose more times than I can count and suffered the consequences. I've never been healthier than I am now or had more energy than I do now, but then again, I quit the hard stuff 15 years ago.

I think Andrew Coggan's point is very simple: there is a difference between "corrrelation" and "causality". There is a great latin expression that summarizes it: Post hoc ergo propter hoc (Literally, "after this and then because of this"). It's not because an event occured after another (e.g. more training and increased longevity) that increased training is the cause of increased longevity.

As A. Coggan acknowledged it, the anecdotal evidence is interesting and potentially convincing. However, as in any experiment, we need scientific validation. Merely observing 2 events is not sufficient, however compelling the evidence might be. It's not because the pavement is wet that it necessarily rained!

Francois

Great - but why wasn't Mark held to the same standard? That is, why did you choose to give him a bully pulpit for his unsubstantiated (and in fact often factually incorrect) claims?

As A. Coggan acknowledged it, the anecdotal evidence is interesting and potentially convincing. However, as in any experiment, we need scientific validation. Merely observing 2 events is not sufficient, however compelling the evidence might be. It's not because the pavement is wet that it necessarily rained! \\\[/url]



Exactly, but in the meantime, those of us that will the the cogs in the wheel, of any studies that will prove it or not, have to make choices based on intuition, anecdotes, logic, and our own personal observation. I can't afford to wait for the jury to come in, especially if what I think is true..But in a historical perspective, you are absolutly right. I just want to be able to read that study in history, not be a foot note in it....

Do you think older folks
lose the heart for the sport, or the body finally gives up?

_____________________________________________________________

Dave, It's a little of both, don't you think? When my times started going down and I found it hurt more to race slower, I said "what am I trying to prove to myself anymore? I've done over 200 endurance contests, so what's the right number??" I think older athletes who are not really competitive get it after a few years racing. They recognize that one more finisher medal in the Hall of Fame at home is meaningless and that the many stresses of training are accumulating and not boding well, so they fade off into the golf course or gym and save the weekends for family.

THANX SLOWMAN.

I FEEL BETTER AND YOU MAKE A LOT OF SENSE.

I'm a hard charger , but I'll take 68 yrs. LOL

I respectfully suggest that your article should have made that point more clearly, and if it had, you would not have encountered the degree of resistance you have.

You'd have gotten some flack for the bad science, of course, but I think most of us intuit that moderation is a good thing, and extremism in training is probably not the best for us in the long run.

Thanks for the clarification.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I love #6!!!

Well said my man.

Monty,

I figured someone would catch me on the Molina comment. I assumed he had no cardiac issues that you have experienced, even though his overall health may be less than ideal (Sisson may have a handy definition of what ideal health is; I do not.)

1. There is scientific evidence that links exposure to UV to increases mutation rates in cells. But there is no evidence drawing increased UV exposure to increased rates of aging. So yes, one should put on sunscreen and wearing the appropriate clothing to decrease the risk of skin cancer.

2. It is a very complicated question with regards to how often a cell can divide before mutations randomly accumulate or are induced (UV exposure). A terminally differentiated cell (i.e. a skin cell) may have a limited number of divisions before the telomeres (the ends of chromosomes) shorten and cell undergoes programed cell death. Whereas a undifferentiated stem cell is thought to have an unlimited number of divisions. (Currently biologists are trying to determine the exact number of cell divisions a stem cell can undergo.) These stem cells replenish various organs (like your skin) throughout your lifetime.
Additionally, cancerous cells often have the ability to divide for an unlimited period. They have changed to skirt the normal issues that would send a cell to programmed cell death.
My point is that many of these questions in biology are currently unresolved but actively being studied. The effect of aging or anti-oxidants of cellular viability is also being studied but there is no data in peer-reviewed scientific journals supporting a link between intense training and these processes so we cannot use logic to piece together the puzzle because logic requires data.

Sisson attempts to use evolution to justify his intuition and he is completely wrong in both his language on evolution and understanding of how evolution occurs. This is quite unfortunate because he is trying hard but fails to realize the difference between what he "believes" to be true and what a vast body of scientific literature available on PubMed shows to actually be true.

Cheers,

Noah

Mark, good inputs. I know I started this sport at 40, and got real serious last year. I have been going full out for over a year now,
and yep, have told the wife I am starting to burn out. Getting up at 4:20 every morning, and going to bed at 7 is getting pretty old.
But, I would be less than honest to say that as the results have gotten better, the ego gets more involved as a Type A.
So, I fight hard to keep putting this sport into the correct light, meaning, it is for fun to stay in shape. I was probably much better
at this with 4 to 6 hours a week or training, rather than my 11 to 12 I am doing now.

So, for folks that started early, between physical burnout and mental burnout, I can see how, has you have experienced, it is not worth
the possible negative quality of life issues later in life. Most of the older folks I talk to started later like me. And the ones really old
started in their early 50's.

Interesting.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"Losing heart" and the "body giving up" -- both are negative phrases for natural processes. As our testosterone levels and other hormonal levels start to decline, we lose some of the competitive urges we had we were younger and, even if we did want to compete as hard and as long as we used to, our bodies won't let us. That is nature taking its course. I had my chance to be young, but now I'm not anymore. Do I want to pop a bunch of expensive pills to try to delay the inevitable? So far I'm satisfied with a daily vitamin.

Is it OK to grow old gracefully? Maybe that is a very important life skill that we can learn from a lifetime of athletics. I talked to Mark Allen in Kona last year. I remember that a half-dozen or so years earlier I couldn't wait to ask him how I could improve my IM performance. Last year, I couldn't wait to ask him if he was satisfied with his current training regime of running 30-40 minutes a day and weight training a couple of times a week, along with surfing. He shook his head and smiled.

Maybe Allen does train more than that, but it made me happy to think that one of my heroes could be slowing down too and accepting it.

That's his answer to most questions ;-)

A terminally differentiated cell (i.e. a skin cell) may have a limited number of divisions before the telomeres (the ends of chromosomes) shorten and cell undergoes programed cell death.\\

Telemores, that was the word I was looking for, I guess that is what google is for..So to use logic you need concrete numbers, so I should have used intuition, as someone pointed out to me. If indeed, our cells have so many replications(as it seems to be the case now), and it is shown that excessive training speeds up that process, through direct stress, or indirect, as in a loading of more free radicals, then my intuition tells me, that later on I'm going to have my aging problems at a younger age. I know that cell division is very individual, and will vary, but my own clock was set at birth, and that is what concerns me. I believe I got a good clock to begin with, probably have already set it ahead 10 years. I just want to limit my losses from this point foreward...You appear to have a good grasp of this biology, are you in the field, or self taught like myself????

// i may or may not agree with mark's view, but it occurs to me that nobody's really got the chops to say, with sufficient data one way or the other, that mark's guess as to the health and longevity aspects of hard core triathlon training is accretive or destructive. no, mark doesn't have the data. neither does anyone on the other side. so we postulate. //

Since you say we don't have the answer, what is the point of the articles on your front page? If you are trying to inform the general public, you cannot, because you have already admitted that there is nothing to tell us.

The only use of a postulate is as the basis for conducting scientific research. Seems to me you've made a reasonable postulate (excessive exercise can adversely affect long-term health), someone should now do some research. Convince someone, maybe that well funded sport governing body, USAT, to fund some university research on the subject.
.

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________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Hey Monty,
Do you think long course training/racing is more detrimental than going hard and doing sprints and Oly's?

I was always under the impression that the fountain of youth lied in doing lots of intensity ( producing more hgh ).

I train very low hours 6-10 hrs tops a week right now. I've been wanting to train 15 or so to go under 2hrs at Olympic distance and under an hour for sprints. Do you think that training at this level is unhealthy?

Thanx for letting us know about your situation , it is helpfull .

Mark, interesting comments. So, do you think us Baby boomers are willing to go into old age like generations before us?
Most that I know plan on working well past when a lot of our relatives were already dead. A lot of us do more
sports that any of our parents and have no plans to quit. So, if science can offer us stuff that "improves" our quality
of life as we get older, do you think baby boomers will ignore it?

If you knew where the swimming pool from Cocoon was, would you jump in?

Very very interesting questions I have no answers or even opinions on what is "right"

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Sisson attempts to use evolution to justify his intuition and he is completely wrong in both his language on evolution and understanding of how evolution occurs. This is quite unfortunate because he is trying hard but fails to realize the difference between what he "believes" to be true and what a vast body of scientific literature available on PubMed shows to actually be true.

__________________________________________________________________

Noah,

Your continuous underscoring of this point that I'm "completely wrong" in my understanding of evolution has me wondering if you understand it yourself. What have I said specifically about evolution that so triggers you?

   
wow. I was willing to follow along until here. I'm sorry but if that's the view point then I'm not too sure you "get it". "Not really competitive" relative to what.

" I think older athletes who are not really competitive get it after a few years racing. They recognize that one more finisher medal in the Hall of Fame at home is meaningless and that the many stresses of training are accumulating and not boding well, so they fade off into the golf course or gym and save the weekends for family.[/reply]

 
I believe all men and women and inherently self-taught, but I confess that I am nearing the end of my PhD in biological chemistry so I am immersed in this research everyday.

As an aside I find no problem in using intuition to generate ideas, but upon experimental testing intuition sometimes is supported by data but can also be completely wrong.

noah

Hey Monty,
Do you think long course training/racing is more detrimental than going hard and doing sprints and Oly's?\\


Yes I do. From my expirence, the longer I raced, the higher the chance was of a pure meltdown. I thus spent a lot of time racing, having gone way past the red zone. It would take weeks and weeks to recover from Ironman efforts, a little less for halfs. Doing olympic and sprints, I could recover in a matter of days, so that says to me that they were less harmfull. I have done the big mileage, and in the last 5 years very little mileage. I have found that shorter, faster workouts work just as well for the shorter races, and I feel better day to day. I think incorporating long periods of time off worked very well for me(long surfing trips every winter) and was a reason for my longevity in the sport as a pro(15 years), and why I still love it 15 years later.. I'm not burned out mentally, but there are physical problems that I have to deal with. I am my own expirement, so I will continue to up date you all on the results....

"Great - but why wasn't Mark held to the same standard?"

mark sisson on drugs in sport -- much as tim noakes on hypervolemia and fluid replacement -- does not meet your standard as one who ought to be listened to. i disagree with you, for reasons i've already stated. when doctors, surgeons, athletes, ethicists, federation officials, all submit on this issue, you may want to consider not reading, because in each and every case they'll fail to be representative of those to whom you'll listen.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman