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Re: Trainer road.com [chadtimmerman] [ In reply to ]
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You know you've reached the masses when they cry for easy workouts.

What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699
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Re: Trainer road.com [chadtimmerman] [ In reply to ]
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chadtimmerman wrote:
they'll be brutal in terms of TSS/stress.

Are you saying you'd like some lighter-intensity workouts, something along the lines of aerobic endurance and/or tempo efforts to perhaps keep piling on the stress, just a lighter form of stress?

I'm liking the idea of brutal - I'm thinking it would be nice to essentially have something to help work up to Cartago or Rockhouse, bridging that gap between the 90 minute rides to the 3 hour rides. The triathlon training plans I'm using call for increasingly longer rides over time, so I had hoped to emulate that. Another option (that I understand is being considered for development) is the idea of putting two or three workouts together, where I could pick and choose a couple of workouts, string them together and have the target power adjusted for both workouts accordingly. I don't know if that really works, though - if 2 60 minute workouts that are designed to target VO2 max are adjusted -10% or whatever to be the first and second half of a 120 minute workout, do they become ineffective? Perhaps a dedicated 120 minute workout designed to be a 120 minute workout is the better option.

Ideally, if I may dream for a bit, I could really use half-Ironman and Ironman TrainerRoad training plans and whatever workouts would be appropriate for those. That would be beyond awesome. I'm pretty much clueless on how to put together a training plan and I am really happy using the TrainerRoad training plans as the first real structured training I've ever done. So far, so good with the early base. I'm starting the advanced base plan tomorrow morning, which I will follow up with the early build plan. That will wrap up just in time for my first Olympic race of the season. After that, I'm not quite sure what I would end up doing leading up to my planned half in August, and full in November.

Anyway, I hope I made some sense. That was probably the most disjointed pile of babbling you've suffered through in a while. Thank you for taking the time to listen - I really appreciate it!

Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador
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Re: Trainer road.com [Printer86] [ In reply to ]
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Printer86 wrote:
You know you've reached the masses when they cry for easy workouts.

That's an awesome quote.

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: Trainer road.com [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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How about a sort function for the rides? I would like to be able to sort by time, tss, etc.

“Read the transcript.”
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Re: Trainer road.com [sslothrop] [ In reply to ]
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Excellent idea.

We are changing the way we store the workouts that will let us do this a little more easily. I might be able to do this change this weekend though.

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: Trainer road.com [Travis R] [ In reply to ]
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Travis R wrote:
Ideally, if I may dream for a bit, I could really use half-Ironman and Ironman TrainerRoad training plans

x2... that would be awesome.
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Re: Trainer road.com [3Dealz] [ In reply to ]
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I tried to sign up but it says all my credit cards have the wrong postal code (cvs error). I haven't had a problem buying other stuff. Has anybody else had this problem?
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Re: Trainer road.com [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Nate Pearson wrote:
MasterTX wrote:
Thanks for the reply...I guess my main issue is-- I feel like if I try to maintain 90+ during my rest period ( I am totally comfortable riding a high cadence ) my power goes up and I can't keep the lower target power in check. Is your suggestion to get into a much lower gear to maintain the cadence, yet keep the power to a minimum?


Yah. But...some rest intervals I don't even pedal for like 30 seconds because I feel like I'm dying. The only way you can do the rest intervals wrong is to do them too hard. Cadence doesn't matter too much.



So the recovery times don't change the numbers for the FTP test right? Tried Trainer Road for the first time last night (FTP Test), loved it. Had the same question as MasterTX, I couldn't keep the power down/RPM up during recovery. Basically would've had to stop pedaling to keep it at 80-90 (or felt that way at least). But from what I gather, the recovery numbers are merely a suggestion, the key is to just keep the legs moving but not "working".

Awesome product. Hope you guys keep moving it forward and end up achieving word domination and infinite wealth.

*edit* just read chadtimmerman's post as well, good to know


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Last edited by: ArtyEff: Jan 24, 12 5:23
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Re: Trainer road.com [chadtimmerman] [ In reply to ]
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chadtimmerman wrote:
Some longer workouts are in the works right now, and I'll be dumping a bunch of 90-minute interval workouts into the pool very soon - shooting for the end of the month. 2 to 2.5 hour workouts are on the list, but beware...they'll be brutal in terms of TSS/stress.

I'd also be happy to put together some recovery "workouts", but I'm befuddled by the idea. Recovery is one thing, workouts entirely another - downright opposites in terms of physiological response. As you may or may not know, workouts literally tear us down and tell our bodies that we want greater capabilities. We then recover (rest + nutrition) and allow the healing process to effectively expand our capabilities and make us stronger and faster riders, Training 101.

Are you saying you'd like some lighter-intensity workouts, something along the lines of aerobic endurance and/or tempo efforts to perhaps keep piling on the stress, just a lighter form of stress?

I am looking forward to some longer efforts Chad. Currently when I want to do a lower intensity recovery type ride that is 75-100 mins is use the free ride option. As I ramp up some longer endurance efforts would be nice.



----------------------
TriAnotherDay.com
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Re: Trainer road.com [chadtimmerman] [ In reply to ]
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chadtimmerman wrote:
I frequently recommend that my riders "do what you need to do in order to make the most of your recovery" and that often means backpedaling, i.e. no-resistance pedaling. The intent is simply to keep the blood circulating and the muscles clearing/recharging without furthering your fatigue - and even spinning at 60rpm with dead-heavy legs can prevent the recovery necessary to make the most out of your subsequent work efforts.

This gives me another idea for the software. I have "auto stop" enabled and that means I can't stop pedaling during recover or pedal backwards as TrainerRoad uses speed to pause the workout. This is also an issue when I'm going at very high intensity efforts as the speed signal is sometimes lost and the app stops when I least want it to (when I'm suffering!).

So, maybe TR can use both speed and cadence to determine whether to pause or not. If it sees that both stop, then it pauses, but if it sees that speed has stopped but cadence is ongoing, it can keep going or wait a few extra seconds before deciding to stop or not stop at all? That way, people could pedal backwards and let the workout keep chugging along.
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Re: Trainer road.com [ArtyEff] [ In reply to ]
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Arty-

I am not sure it's possible to maintain a high cadence and stay at the recovery power levels unless:

A) your FTP is crazy high so your recovery levels are higher
B) You go into your granny gear and spin away

I have resorted to resting during all recoveries (70rpms comfortably) and kicking back up to 90+ cadence during the intervals
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Re: Trainer road.com [ArtyEff] [ In reply to ]
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Yah, recovery time doesn't affect FTP. It's just that main work interval. We take the average of that 20 minutes.

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: Trainer road.com [tovi] [ In reply to ]
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tovi wrote:
chadtimmerman wrote:
I frequently recommend that my riders "do what you need to do in order to make the most of your recovery" and that often means backpedaling, i.e. no-resistance pedaling. The intent is simply to keep the blood circulating and the muscles clearing/recharging without furthering your fatigue - and even spinning at 60rpm with dead-heavy legs can prevent the recovery necessary to make the most out of your subsequent work efforts.


This gives me another idea for the software. I have "auto stop" enabled and that means I can't stop pedaling during recover or pedal backwards as TrainerRoad uses speed to pause the workout. This is also an issue when I'm going at very high intensity efforts as the speed signal is sometimes lost and the app stops when I least want it to (when I'm suffering!).

So, maybe TR can use both speed and cadence to determine whether to pause or not. If it sees that both stop, then it pauses, but if it sees that speed has stopped but cadence is ongoing, it can keep going or wait a few extra seconds before deciding to stop or not stop at all? That way, people could pedal backwards and let the workout keep chugging along.

Yes, I agree. Speed and cadence would be nice. That way we would be double protected from drop outs.

We've noticed that some people lose cadence when they really dig hard and flex their bike. The cadence magnet doesn't read and then it pauses! That totally sucks. You want to throw your bike, trainer and all.

I think we'll put that in for the release this weekend.

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: Trainer road.com [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome... I expect my check is in the mail? :-P
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Re: Trainer road.com [Travis R] [ In reply to ]
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Then brutal you'll have, but of course it will either have more recovery between intervals or less intensity during the intervals in order to stretch your effort for progressively longer periods. The idea of stringing workouts together is interesting and could be useful with the lower-end workouts, but as you sensibly questioned, if you adjust VO2max workouts down then at some point they cease being VO2max efforts/workouts, and rightly so because that level of intensity can only be maintained and repeated for so long. When that intensity drops below a certain point, we're not producing the output necessary (nor imposing the required demands) to stimulate the changes that take place when we work at high percentages of our VO2max power, but over long workouts we simply can't work that hard very often before our form & performance begin to degrade - you only have so many matches to burn.

Is this time wasted on ineffective workouts? No, definitely not. Could this time be better spent, made more effective and with less time on the bike - very probably. I'm a big believer in reaping the most out of my time and my athletes' time; think Joe Friel's "...least amount of properly timed, specific training that brings continual improvement," and that's verbatim from memory because I cite it so often. So the short answer is, at least in the case of VO2max work, a 2-hour workout makes more sense than two 1-hour workouts with wattage reductions. Alternatively, you could even do a couple 1-hour workouts separated by several hours of rest but this would largely depend on your level of experience and ability to recover.

I'm less of a multisport coach and more of a cycling coach, but of course cycling is a huge component of tri's & du's. With regards to the cycling end of things and your new exposure to structured training, I think you're gong to get a lot of return on your planned approach just the way it stands. By the time you approach your first race, there will be a number of new training plans available that are very likely to suit your needs when it comes to furthering your fitness in time for your August half-IM and subsequent November IM. These are "Race" training plans that build upon the fitness you'll have built during the Build phases and should be sufficiently challenging (and "interesting" wink wink) in order to bring your riding to the next level.

Head Coach at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: Trainer road.com [VanDrunken] [ In reply to ]
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They're on the way, for sure. And your active recovery approach is an excellent one because those free rides allow you to work at a true recovery effort level (under 50%FT) and bore yourself with recovery miles. Speaking of boring, I'm happy to put together some long, endurance rides for those iron-taint riders willing to log the longer trainer miles. Get your DVD's/Netflix/Hulu videos ready and I'll make it happen.

Head Coach at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: Trainer road.com [chadtimmerman] [ In reply to ]
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There's a gap of workouts between 1:30 and 2:30 in length. Those would be great.
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Re: Trainer road.com [chadtimmerman] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome - thanks for the well thought out response. That makes a lot of sense, and I'm looking forward to the new plans. I know I sound like a shill, but I have been really impressed with TrainerRoad, and having these great plans in place is huge for a guy like me that doesn't really grasp all the details of the science and can use the guidance. It has really opened a new world for me as far as my training goes, and I look forward to every bike ride!

Thanks again!

Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador
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Re: Trainer road.com [morey000] [ In reply to ]
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Yes indeedy, but I'm not sure I'd call it a secret. There aren't too many coaches who will repeatedly tell you to got out and log sweet spot/threshold miles (90-100%FT) and nothing else, rather they'll complement that training with intervals. And by their very nature, intervals are intense. They have to be in order to make you stronger because when you continually train at threshold and lower, there's just not the necessary demand to elicit improvement. So even riders who compete at steady, subthreshold effort levels will benefit - greatly, I might add - from a couple of short but intense weekly workouts that push them well outside of their typical sweet spot/threshold power levels.

My recommendation is to get rested, assess your FTP, and then start with some of the Sweet Spot and Threshold workouts for a couple-few weeks before you dive into the VO2max end of the pool. The Advanced Base training plan has plenty of this type of stuff, and the Early Build plan will progress you into some of the rough stuff. Good luck!

Head Coach at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: Trainer road.com [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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I wanted to expand on Nate's comments a little by pointing out the different tolls that different cadences take on your body. In a nutshell, slower, sub-90 cadences are muscular spins, increasingly so as you slow down to "climbing" cadences as low as 60rpm (yikes) whereas quicker, 90+ cadences are more cardiorespiratory in that they noticeably ramp up your heart rate and breathing more than a slower spin. I like to put this in hiking terms by asking riders to imagine slowly trudging up a steep grade by taking large, lumbering steps that place a lot of stress on your leg muscles (and joints) due to long, forceful contractions that keep your breathing in check but place you at the top of the hill with heavy legs. Compare that to a hiker who's taking short, choppy, rapid steps up the hill, breathing noticeably harder, but reaches the top with legs that can probably handle some more climbing, almost immediately.

Now relate this to a cycling scenario where you climb a 4-mile, 5% grade at 65rpm only to summit with legs that NEED a downhill segment in order to recover, legs that even post-downhill are tired and lethargic and load up very soon into your next climb. Compare this to the rider who has cultivated a comfortably-quick, much more nimble 85rpm climbing cadence that shifts the demand more toward the far less fatigable heart & lungs (diaphragm). By fostering greater aerobic fitness via consistent, higher-cadence efforts over numerous rides and workouts, climbing or otherwise, this rider will summit and roll right past that summit-sign-photo-op because s/he is ready to RIDE the descent rather than coast or backpedal to the base of the next climb. And upon reaching that next climb, this same rider will settle back into a quick-ish spin that again taxes the heart & lungs fueled more by ever-plentiful oxygen in an effort to preserve your muscles and far less plentiful sugar stores.

To distill this down to an oversimplified lesson, slow spins stress muscles and burn sugar while quicker spins stress your heart/lungs, preserve muscles & sugar, and better utilize oxygen. Just ask Jan Ulrich why he could never accelerate and catch Lance and he'll tell you, "my legs were cooked, man!" ;-)

Head Coach at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
Last edited by: chadtimmerman: Jan 24, 12 12:19
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Re: Trainer road.com [3Dealz] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with this sentiment. Perhaps add some plans for olympic distance as well. I find the plans to be most usefull. Also maybe some plans based on current level of cyclist (ie long rides= 3h, 4h, etc). thanks-ps love and "hate" the workouts if you know what I mean ;). Never realized how easy i was riding on the trainer until I rode with power.
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Re: Trainer road.com [chadtimmerman] [ In reply to ]
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chadtimmerman wrote:
By fostering greater aerobic fitness via consistent, higher-cadence efforts over numerous rides and workouts, climbing or otherwise,

Hey Chad
My takeaway is that you recommend spinning for the intervals. Would this be ideal for all rides or a percent?
By the way thank you for helping me kick my own ass. You and Nate have put together a really useful tool.

Mike
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Re: Trainer road.com [heliix] [ In reply to ]
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I try to prescribe RPM ranges for each workout, at least the ones that have text within them, and it would probably be best if we also added the rpm ranges to the workout descriptions. I'll add that to my to-do list and I'll make sure that all workouts & plans created from this point forward include this information in their descriptions.

In general, I try to adhere to a 90rpm minimum unless climbing and/or standing. In the case of seated climbing, with proper gearing you can still shoot for this 90rpm minimum on milder grades but when the road really turns upward you have to do whatever is necessary to keep rolling which could mean grinding away at 70rpm or lower (at great muscular expense, I might add) but even then the higher the rpm, the better you'll preserve your muscles/carbohydrate assuming excellent muscle control, i.e. knee tracking & fluid, circular pedalstrokes.

When it comes to climbing out-of-the-saddle, I try to coach riders to get "comfortable" at around 70rpm but I've seen some of the best climbers around hold a cadence as high as 85rpm. Quick, standing cadences like that come with MUCH practice and exceptional fitness, both cardiorespiratory and muscular, so this can be a very long-term process taking multiple seasons and a lot of time in the hills. For most riders, achieving a 70rpm spin while standing puts them ahead of the far majority of riders in terms of muscle sparing and higher climbing speeds - but again, this takes a lot of practice and a high level of fitness.

And finally, with respect to VO2max work (and to a lesser extent anaerobic efforts), the idea is to stress the heart/lungs more than the muscles so I emphasize 100+rpm which sounds very high for less experienced riders, but keep in mind that VO2max efforts are typically quite short, often as short as 2-3 minutes (anaerobic efforts are often even shorter than that). This is also part of the reason we perform early-season speed work in the Base training plans as well as why we incorporate quick-spinning drills into many of our workouts.

Head Coach at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: Trainer road.com [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry Nate, I still do not know what you mean by 'dropping a video into our video player'.

I'm new to all of this and need some more help !

Sorry

Db
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Re: Trainer road.com [Dbeitel] [ In reply to ]
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Does one's cadence appear in the workout graph? I know it appears in numerical form.

What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699
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