2017 Neo:

Due to complaints from people about the Tacx Neo being too slow to adjust resistance when target power changes, there were changes to the firmware a while back to address the issue. The Neo is now very aggressive about setting resistance to target power, not only when a new interval starts, but also in response to any drop in cadence that causes power to go down during the interval. IMHO it's too aggressive, longer intervals at threshold or above are absolutely brutal on the Neo - more so than on my old gen1 Kickr. I personally would rather have the older behavior, although I understand why it wasn't optimal for really short intervals.

Thanks Gary and JSK. I went back and re-read the recent thread I was thinking of about the Neo vs Kickr power feel differences. There was a picture in it that I didn't remember being there (below). JSK, that seemed to be the general consensus as you mentioned about the brutal variations above 90% of threshold.

The Kickr looks so smooth, I'm wondering if that wouldn't be the better option for me. I was thinking with the few features of the Neo (simulated downhill, road feel, and slightly better stability of the unit) based on my readings, that it may be worth it over the Kickr (that plus I was able to find a deal making the Neo only $80 more than the Kickr). But my primary use of it would be for using with TR during training with just occasional use in the off-season for Zwift. Sorry, just thinking out loud here.

I think the real question is does the smoothness of the line matter? I really don't think it does.

Good point. I guess that is what it comes down to. Here's a pic of my workout this morning. The Neo probably would be similar, likely even better as far as overall variation from the target power. So definitely something I could deal with, I guess it's just more so the idea of how much these smart trainers cost and seeing how smooth the Kickr is and costs less that is throwing the flag up in my head. That coupled with hearing that the variation is most prevalent during the more intense efforts (threshold and V02 max).

There are tricks these manufacturers can do too, like data smoothing that make it LOOK like the line is smoother, even though it may not be. Your mind believes what your eyes see, and if they can take data less often, for example, you'll see less variance and it will make the line look smoother. It also probably has some to do with how apps like Trainer Road display those data. People will then make the assumption that the smoother line indicates better control of the trainer and/or a better or more effective workout. At the end of the day, though, does it really matter? I would say no. A slight variance most likely makes no difference in the grand scheme of things. If pros can use one sided powermeters and still be successful, it probably doesn't matter much for this application.

The difference you see between the NEO's and KICKR's power boils down to the differences in flywheel size, and how the units measure power. In both cases, the raw power data will be sent to us, and we simply display it. Though, some say that some sort of power smoothing is applied to the KICKR's power in addition to the sizable flywheel it has. In actuality, the more volatile readings are likely a more accurate representation of an athletes' actual power output.

But, if you like the features of the NEO and just don't like the jumpier power output, you can always enable Power Smoothing settings in the TrainerRoad app. This won't change the graph itself, but it'll display an average value as your power output, instead of constantly fluctuating. Again, this will only be applied to the value in the power number field that you use to compare to the target power, not the graph itself.

We haven't seen tons of complaints about slower transitions between intervals between the two machines, though. I just wanted to make sure you guys knew about the power smoothing option, as well as why you see the differences between the two trainer's power outputs. For what it's worth, lots of us ride KICKRs and love them! :)

Cheers,

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Get Faster with TrainerRoad

Here is a NEO/TR ride from 4/12. I had a KICKR for years (and sold it for a NEO). The NEO is being being controlled by my SRM to ensure accuracy. The NEO works well, and so did the KICKR. The NEO feels harder, I think because there is a fair bit of time over the prescribed wattage, but the average power for the interval is dead on. I guess that's why anything over 90% FTP is brutal :). I am happy with the NEO... and if it feels harder, so what?? Hopefully that will translate to the wattage feeling easier outside.

I have learned that the smooth lines don't mean squat.

I have a tacx vortex and when i let the trainer control the resistance, the lines are always perfectly smooth and I'm 100% accurate. ...Unfortunately, the reality is that these trainers are only estimating power based on roller speed and resistance and so long as you keep things realtively constant, you'll always be bang on. This means that the trainer really isn't all that sensitive to power and it's really only getting you in the ballpark range estimate.

Now, when I let my pioneer PM control resistance on the vortex, I see much more of those small fluctuations in power. It used to bother me a little, until I realized it was far more accurate / reflective of what power I was actually putting out.

TR and the Neomare are like two peas in a pod. They just belong together.

Matter of fact, I use TR as my interface for any custom workouts (i.e. Ones built on Training Peaks by my coach). Seamless.

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AV8 | Team Wattie Ink Elite 2019

Thanks Nick and everyone else for your replies and input.

Pretty sure I read something a while back that the Kickr reports target power instead of measured power. I'm guessing that this is why the line looks smoother on the Kickr.

Yes, this is the case.

In fact, I'm looking to buy a smart trainer, and can't decide between the Neo and the Elite Drivo.

I discarded the Kickr as soon as I read that it reports different power to the real power. Really bad imho.

At the end of the day it just so happens that what seemed like a reason for the Kickr to be superior actually means its inferior.
This is why we should always question. Reviews, like power display, can be 'tweaked' to show us a "fact" in a slightly different light. Different enough to make us interpret it in a wrong way. Some call this bias.

Hey Guys! Bryce from TrainerRoad here.

I have no vested interest in the Wahoo vs Neo comparison, however I thought I would jump in to clarify one point.

The Kickr does not simply show the Target Power. The reason the power looks so smooth is becasue the Kickr contains a gear ratio between the freehub and the flywheel.

When you pedal your trainer, whether it is a Kickr or a Neo, it spins a weighted flywheel to simulate realistic road feel and smooth out your power. However, the Kickr's gear ratio allows for a different interaction between your drivetrain and the flywheel. Since the Neo does not have this ratio, one rotation of the cassette= one rotation of the flywheel. On the Kickr, one rotation of the cassette results in many rotations of the flywheel, which means that the flywheel is rotating many times faster, which means more inertia, which means smoother power.

Both trainers are actively reading your power, but the Kickr will just be a bit smoother. Now, it can be argued that this smoother power is less responsive to power changes and helps "hide" a poor pedal stroke or improper technique, but that is a different conversation :)

Having dealt considerably with both trainers, I can easily recommend either of them with their individual strengths being:
Kickr: Smooth power delivery
Neo: Silent operation

I hope this helped clear things up!

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Get Faster with TrainerRoad

Hi Bryce,

Well, that's certainly not the case for me.

The power reported in my kickr is generally just having a variance of +/- 1 W. That's definitely not actual power.
I confirmed by comparing to an accurate external power meter, when power of kickR was being reported in erg mode as an almost flat line in the graph, it was actually jumping by +/- 15 W by what the accurate external power meter was showing.

I have seen this has been experienced by several other users as well.

Based on my experience I wouldn't compare "smooth power delivery" by only using the power reported by the Kickr.

Be warned that there is (was) a significant noise level difference between the Kickr and the Neo. I had to return the Kickr and got Neo and could not be happier.

The one below is from Neo with Vectors with power match from few days ago. I don't see any problem with it.

The KICKR has an ERG Mode power smoothing feature that you can enable/disable within the Wahoo Fitness app. Usually it's on by default and when you are using an app like TrainerRoad, you will see beautiful smooth power lines – even though that's not really true or how power works. If you disable it, you will see your real power numbers and your chart won't be as pretty. But the KICKR is actually fine reporting power and usually close to my powermeter when calibrated. But overall, the NEO has a much better power accuracy.

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SmartBikeTrainers.com || YouTube || My Twitter

Yes. Originally I ordered a Kickr and used it several times with the power smoothing feature turned off. I can’t remember for sure but it may have been because I was having the power adjusted based on my P1 pedals. My workouts definitely were not smooth looking. I then returned it and got a Neo. Pretty similar result. I’m very happy with the Neo. I use Zwift during the off-season and liked the idea of the road-feel that the Neo offered. Probably would have been happy with the Kickr too. Really I don’t think you can go wrong either way. The Neo is quiet but that makes you notice the sound of the drivetrain. Some gear combos are more quiet than others.

I haven't been able to get the Wahoo Fitness app to enable/disable ERG Mode power smoothing. I don't see that option at all.

In the Wahoo fitness app, go to sensors and make sure it’s paired to your Kickr or Snap. Select it and you should see Erg mode smoothing option.

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SmartBikeTrainers.com || YouTube || My Twitter

Be careful when attempting to measure power over short durations. The power you output is very lumpy and not at all a constant level. If you average power over a complete pedal revolution it can be consistent but most powermeters don’t measure that way. If they just average the power over 1 second intervals it will look quite noisy unless you smooth it.

The kicker could be averaging the power over a pedal revolution and it could be quite smooth compared to your other meter.

the external PM was displaying power over 3s duration.

I get it, if I display a longer average power duration, like for example 30s W, the power will look a lot smoother than the 3s duration. That will happen on any trainer, not only on the kickr.

I just don't think it's fair to say kickr power is smoother based only on the power display of the unit, as it probably is showing just target power or way longer duration average power. So if someone want to see actually how smooth a trainer power is, should compare to an accurate external PM instead of the kickR power display.

The closest item on my list is ERG Mode Speed Simulation. Nothing about smoothing :(.