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TrainerRoad New FTP test
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Trainer road is hinting in the latest podcast that they have come up with an algorithm to donor ftp test in 2 minutes. How accurate can this be

Hard work is faster then aero
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Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [surfNJmatt] [ In reply to ]
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Why don't you ask them on the Traineroad thread? They are on their all the time answering questions and giving advice.

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Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [surfNJmatt] [ In reply to ]
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How long until Coggan and others get into a bitter ST bitchfest about this? It's measured in hours but how many hours is the question. :-)

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Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [surfNJmatt] [ In reply to ]
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There was some discussions here a few years ago about a 2-minute FTP test. I don't know if it's the same. Basically you start with a full sprint, and at every second you give everything you got. Power will decline quickly and then stabilize at around your FTP. That was the general idea.
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Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [nchristi] [ In reply to ]
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nchristi wrote:
There was some discussions here a few years ago about a 2-minute FTP test. I don't know if it's the same. Basically you start with a full sprint, and at every second you give everything you got. Power will decline quickly and then stabilize at around your FTP. That was the general idea.

Sounds like a similar concept to "critical pace" at SwimSmooth. Basically the difference between a flat out / rested 200 and a flat out / rested 400 is your sustainable pace per 200m

It's pretty accurate. My avg pace in an 800 race is very slightly quicker than that calculated pace, and there really isn't much difference between an 800 and a 1500 pace.

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Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [nchristi] [ In reply to ]
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nchristi wrote:
There was some discussions here a few years ago about a 2-minute FTP test. I don't know if it's the same. Basically you start with a full sprint, and at every second you give everything you got. Power will decline quickly and then stabilize at around your FTP. That was the general idea.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/242331932_Critical_power_derived_from_a_3-min_all-out_test_predicts_161-km_road_time-trial_performance
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Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [russ] [ In reply to ]
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russ wrote:
Why don't you ask them on the Traineroad thread? They are on their all the time answering questions and giving advice.

I didn't want to ask the people who made the test, obviously they believe it works. Hence I asked in an unbiased manner

Hard work is faster then aero
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Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [surfNJmatt] [ In reply to ]
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But it would also help to hear from the creator as to why they think it is accurate.
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Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [surfNJmatt] [ In reply to ]
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It's a MAP Ramp test.
I did it and for what's its worth my result came back as my current FTP.
I liked it much better than either the 8 or 20 minute tests.Able to complete it in about 18 minutes.
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Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [TriSolo] [ In reply to ]
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TriSolo wrote:
It's a MAP Ramp test.

Paging Ric Stern. Paging Mr. Ric Stern.
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Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [surfNJmatt] [ In reply to ]
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My result from their new step test came back 3 watts higher than my previous trainerroad 20 minute FTP test so I would say that's pretty accurate.
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Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [surfNJmatt] [ In reply to ]
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the test is available to anyone with a TR subscription.
Look for 'Ramp Test X' in workouts. They also encourage feedback after you have done it to the TrainerRoad Beta testers group on facebook
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Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [tomee] [ In reply to ]
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Is it supposed to be performed in ERG mode until you simply grind to a halt?

"It's good enough for who it's for" - Grandpa Wayne
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Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [flynnzu] [ In reply to ]
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I will say I much prefer the new test. The 20 min test was a nightmare for me, so much so I usually just estimated it. I'm happy to the the new test regularly.
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Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [flynnzu] [ In reply to ]
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flynnzu wrote:
Is it supposed to be performed in ERG mode until you simply grind to a halt?

I'm not sure if you are "supposed" to do it in ERG mode, but they said you can use ERG mode if you want. And yes, you go until failure. The power increases every minute, and the step increases are a % of your FTP.
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Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
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Just for laughs, I looked at the IFs of some of the riders who have completed the ramp. Average = 0.96 with SD +.- .06.

I guess if this holds up, you could get within 6% of whatever other method you used to get FTP. Probably better if their algorithm figures out whose data to drop.

Now it makes me wonder if the BSX was using this sort of calculation, at least to 'flavor' their SmO2 readings. Was always a bit suspicious based on my own results, that how far you were able to push in their ramp had some effect on the calculated FTP. But that's a whole other can of worms.

A.
Last edited by: zender: Jan 30, 18 16:16
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Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [surfNJmatt] [ In reply to ]
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IMO i doesn't necessarily matter with testing.

What matters is that you use the same test throughout your season to monitor your progress. If you are looking for accuracy, then get a blood test.

Personal experience is that 2' step w/blood, 95% of 20' and 100% of 30' solo test were all pretty close (within a few percent).

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Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [zender] [ In reply to ]
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A ramp (incremental) protocol will tend to overestimate FTP in individuals with above-average resistance to fatigue during supra-FTP exercise, whereas it will tend to underestimate in those in whom the opposite is true. This is precisely the same limitation that exists when applying a fixed correction (i.e., 95%) to 20 min power.

As for what is more tolerable, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and all that, but for me at least a truly maximal incremental test leaves me knackered for hours. That's not really surprising, though, since as a whole-body physiological stressor such a test is far more challenging (at least acutely) than, e.g., major burn injury, trauma, etc.
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Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [surfNJmatt] [ In reply to ]
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Hey guys, Bryce from TrainerRoad here.

The new test that we are developing is not technically a MAP test, however it does have a stepped nature like many other tests out there. Most of those stepped tests are designed to be used alongside medial testing equipment in order to attain the results of the test. The Ramp test that we are developing is designed to be used purely on its own and to accurately estimate a user's FTP.

The way it works is through a series of one minute steps. The test is scaled to your current FTP and increases to an order of 6% with every step. The rider then begins the test and rides until they can no longer meet the demands of the Target Power. While it is a reallllly nice test for ERG mode users, the algorithm is designed to deal with the imperfections of non-ERG users and is accurate for everyone. We then take the point of failure, and using our formula, we work backwards to estimate the user's FTP. So far, we have been recieving very positive feedback.

You mention that it is a 2 minute test, however that is not entirely true. I believe Nate said on the podacast that you only "really have to hurt for 2 minutes" and having completed the test myself a few times that is certainly a fair statement. By constantly increasing the resistance, you only have to live in a zone of suffering for a brief period of time before failure occurs. This contrasts to the 20 min test for example, where you may start really hurting 8 minutes in, but you have to hold that same output for 12 more minutes until you want to fall off your bike.

The goal of this is not only to require less TSS during testing, but also to eliminate the feelings of dread and anxiety surrounding testing. It also eliminates the factor of pacing and just allows you to ride hard :)

If you are a TR user, I recommend joining the TrainerRoad Beta Testers page on Facebook. Even if you are not a member, you can complete the Ramp Test X in our Workout Catalog. Since it is still in Beta, it will take about a day for a Support Agent to manually comment your earned FTP from the test.

Happy training!

Get Faster with TrainerRoad
Last edited by: Bryce Lewis TR: Jan 30, 18 17:46
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Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test wis TR] [ In reply to ]
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I played around with the ramp testing approach in the early 2000s if anyone is interested in learning more:

https://groups.google.com/.../wattage/6MEHIl-zGaA
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Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
A ramp (incremental) protocol will tend to overestimate FTP in individuals with above-average resistance to fatigue during supra-FTP exercise, whereas it will tend to underestimate in those in whom the opposite is true. This is precisely the same limitation that exists when applying a fixed correction (i.e., 95%) to 20 min power.

As for what is more tolerable, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and all that, but for me at least a truly maximal incremental test leaves me knackered for hours. That's not really surprising, though, since as a whole-body physiological stressor such a test is far more challenging (at least acutely) than, e.g., major burn injury, trauma, etc.

Is it possible to get around that by doing multiple tests at different rates? As I understand it (no physiology background), an incremental ramp test to true exhaustion would end when you exhaust your available AWC/W'. If you assume that all the energy above some sustainable-ish steady state is from AWC, it seems logical to me that you could take the result of two tests at different ramp rates, say a ~25 W/min MAP test and a slower ramping test (maybe 20 W every 3 minutes), and then calculate a steady-state work capability and AWC that match with the exhaustion times for both tests. Am I over-simplifying here?

Even if it works, it sounds pretty terrible. As you say, one maximal test is bad enough. I really don't want to do two in fairly close succession.
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Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [RunningChoux] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, that is precisely what Morton proposed in the 1990s and what I tested on myself in 2003 or so. It worked well enough, but I don't know if multiple ramp tests to failure are any more palatable than multiple constant intensity tests, or even just one (I.e., 20 min).
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Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [Bryce Lewis TR] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Bryce, any idea when it is likely to be available with automatically calculated FTP?

Will definitely be giving this a go.
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Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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cartsman wrote:
Thanks Bryce, any idea when it is likely to be available with automatically calculated FTP?

Will definitely be giving this a go.

Sadly we don't have a solid time-frame quite yet. First, we had to prove the concept and determine if it could reasonably assess FTP. We feel that the test has shown enough promise to continue moving forward with the project, however, now we need to dive into the Development Phase to integrate the prompts, calculations, and cool-down.

Get Faster with TrainerRoad
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Re: TrainerRoad New FTP test [Bryce Lewis TR] [ In reply to ]
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Does TR automatically determine when to end the test? Or is it something I need to figure out?
Last edited by: AndrewL: Jan 31, 18 17:04
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