Total Immersion books/dvd's review wanted

Jun 29, 17 18:43

Post #1 of 17 (7381 views)

Like a lot of people i never did competitive swimming as a kid or ever did intense swim training growing up. In 2015 I did an ironman. But, while training for it I slacked off a lot and often went weeks in between swimming. Luckily I did the beach to battleship (last year before it became ironman North Carolina) and there was a generous current that year.

I hated swimming while training for it and hadn't swam since. But, I've got a recurring hamstring strain and while I rehab it I've decided to swim again and have been for about 3 weeks.

I hated swimming while training for the ironman because it was the one disciple that was difficult to do because of my work schedule so I never could get into a good routine. I was nervous about swimming 2.4 miles and I knew my training wasn't what it was suppose to be. Then i always felt guilty about not swimming as much as I knew I should be swimming and the more guilt I had about swimming then the less desire I had to do it so I could avoid facing the reality that I wasn't getting any better.

Anyways, now that I have no pressure to train for a 2.4 mile swim and I can just swim however long or short I want, swimming is a lot more enjoyable. I've been trying to work on my form and have been watching a bunch of videos on youtube. One of the video serious I've enjoyed is the total immersion videos. I am considering buying the books and dvds to help me improve my stroke and efficiency. A masters class or a coach isn't a real option so something like this seemed like a good option.

Curious of opinions from those that did it or know people who did it. Also which books/DVD's did you do?
Some of the youtube videos were segments of "Perpetual Motion Freestyle in 10 lessons" and also "Freestyle Made Easy" both from Total Immersion. When I went to their website there is:
1.0 Effortless Endurance
2.0 Freestyle Mastery Complete Course
Perpetual Motion Freestyle in 10 Lessons
Outside the Box (for open water swimming)

I am curious what courses you might have taken (or know somebody else that took it) and what the results were and how happy you were with it and if you felt it ultimately helped.

Thanks!!

Last edited by: Kaywould: Jun 29, 17 19:34

Re: Total Immersion books/dvd's review wanted [Kaywould] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 17 10:10

Post #2 of 17 (7293 views)

First of all, listen closely, I am about to save you about $40.

Buy them used.

Go to half.com or check the amazon used listings to buy these things.

If it were me, I'd get both a book and a video. Watching a video is great but if you don't understand the reasoning for it, you won't get very far.

I'd get "Better Swimming for Every Body" as the book and Freestyle Made Easy or one of the newer videos with it.

The way they teach freestyle hasn't changed radically over the last 10 years or so.

You should be able to get both of those on half.com for under $10.

This is the part where I tell you a couple of things. I've been coaching adult onset swimmers, mostly triathletes, for 16 years now. So know these things.

1. Teaching yourself from any single book or video can lead you down dead ends. You may take a phrase absolutely literally and latch onto it and carry it to its unnatural end. Be cautious of that.

2. No single method of learning to swim is correct, furthermore no matter what book you are reading or video you are watching - that teacher no longer teaches the exact same way. They will have learned at least a little bit from the time they wrote the book. It's no locked in stone.
The extension of that is, don't stop with the Total Immersion methods. Check out the swim smooth book and video as well, the swim power 2 video is a little dated but also worth seeing and also available for cheap.

3. As you may have noticed, the Total Immersion methods can get your horizontal and get you able to swim 2 or 3 miles of freestyle easily and smoothly. To get fast at doing that will require more work probably in a different vein.

Good luck

Re: Total Immersion books/dvd's review wanted [Kaywould] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 17 10:30

Post #3 of 17 (7281 views)

I started with TI books and watched a video. It was a great way to start swimming, and I would recommend it to all/most adult-onset swim noobs. Great drills for starting, and great relaxed approach to swimming, where you don't fight the water.

These are common criticisms that are recurrent about TI :

1. TI implies you can 'swim easy' for all of your training and 'go fast' because you're so smooth in the water. There are a few talents who can do this, but the cold, hard reality is that this is as far from the truth for most. Just go look at a typical competitive youth swim team practice, and watch how many 'easy relaxed' yards they swim, and how many hammerfest yards they swim. It's a LOT of hammering.

Ok, I guess you'll be 'fast' compared to an untrained swimmer or an occasional swimmer who doesn't know anything about technique. But you'll still come in bottom 25% in a triathlon swim.

2. Once you are an intermediate swimmer, streamlining and reducing drag are a lot less of a limiting factor compared to as you were a beginner swimmer.

The most common refrain here and on Beginnertriathlete is "waah, I'm swimming 2x/wk, going 1:40/100, look at my technique and help me get to sub 1:20 - but I don't want to swim more than 3x/wk." I don't care how good your coaching is - ain't gonna happen unless you amp up volume and intensity a lot more than 3x/wk.

3. TI def oversells its expected results. It's not unrealistic for a typical MOP-genetic ability swimmer to do TI very carefully, but still end up bottom third of their AG in the swim if all they've done is 'swim easy.'

Bottom line - once you're past that beginner flail part of swimming, of which TI helps a TON with getting comfortable and not panicking in the water, its gonna take a boatload of a hard work to actually get fast (or just faster than you are now for the typical plateuad intermediate-level triathlete.)

Last edited by: lightheir: Jun 30, 17 10:33

Re: Total Immersion books/dvd's review wanted [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 17 10:41

Post #4 of 17 (7264 views)

What a fantastic response ... should be cataloged for newbies. I was an AOS at age 49, and ended up taking a TI class shortly thereafter. It helped. I also paid for some extra coaching here and there, attended a swim camp in the Keys, and a number of swim clinics. This past winter I was looking for a swim camp/clinic and came across one that sounded good until I learned that all the instruction would be from "TI Master Coaches". I passed. I think TI was a great help initially, but eventually you need to move on to progress.

Re: Total Immersion books/dvd's review wanted [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 17 10:57

Post #5 of 17 (7249 views)

Thanks for the input everyone. Definitely very helpful.

Re: Total Immersion books/dvd's review wanted [Kaywould] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 17 12:00

Post #6 of 17 (7208 views)

If you can get some video of yourself swimming. from multiple angles. I took a swim smooth clinic and really liked it. I like some of their drills quite a lot. But the best thing walking away from that was the swim video. what you feel like you're doing in the water may not be what you're actually doing. the video made that apparent for me.

Re: Total Immersion books/dvd's review wanted [mickison] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 17 12:17

Post #7 of 17 (7190 views)

I started with TI to get initial body positioning right, but realized very quickly it would only get me 30% of where I wanted to go.

I was sick of the over the water coaching (they seemed to care more about how splash free you were) instead of coaching to what was going on under the water with your stroke.

I am glad I moved on, I think the reason it gets flack is because it is such a cult.

Re: Total Immersion books/dvd's review wanted [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 17 20:01

Post #8 of 17 (7099 views)

I have an old TI video that did me a huge amount of good. I spent decades not understanding that I did not know how to swim. But as someone else in this thread said, don't get too obsessed by TI. Once you've got decent body position so your hips and feet are up, you're long and skinny, your toes are pointing in a low amplitude at-the-surface burble, you've got good rotation and a good high elbow pull, then it's time to move on from TI so you don't get stuck in that rut. I moved on to SwimSmooth and that helped me understand that TI had me way over-gliding and therefore a way too slow stroke rate. That said, I needed that slow stroke rate to understand and then fix problems. I'd never have fixed the problems if I'd have tried to do it at 50 stroke/min.

I'm still not a great swimmer, I will probably never be all that good. But I'm a whole helova lot better than i was when I was much younger and fitter. And that difference is mostly TI teaching me to be more efficient.

My video was old. I've no idea what they are doing these days tho.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

Re: Total Immersion books/dvd's review wanted [Kaywould] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 17 21:07

Post #9 of 17 (7079 views)

email me if you want to buy my TI DVD.

cagreg@cox.net

Re: Total Immersion books/dvd's review wanted [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 17 14:59

Post #10 of 17 (6970 views)

Swim smooth seems to be a recurring recommendation.

Compared to the abilities of a lot of people on here I'm comparitavely a beginner but I'm way beyond the point of hardly being able to swim 25 or 50 yards. I could definitely swim a mile right now but I'd be tired. I can breath on both sides but it's uncomfortable to breath on my non dominant side so I don't do it often. My stroke is definitely not beautiful but it's well beyond doggie stroke. I can swim comfortably but I have a lot of areas to improve.

I'm sure Total Immersion could help but if there are a lot of recommendations to start with TI but eventually transition to swimsmooth, should I just get swimsmooth?

Last edited by: Kaywould: Jul 1, 17 15:01

Re: Total Immersion books/dvd's review wanted [Kaywould] [ In reply to ]

Jul 1, 17 20:34

Post #11 of 17 (6920 views)

Kaywould wrote:

Swim smooth seems to be a recurring recommendation.
Compared to the abilities of a lot of people on here I'm compaaitavely a beginner but I'm way beyond the point of hardly being able to swim 25 or 50 yards. I could definitely swim a mile right now but I'd be tired. I can breath on both sides but it's uncomfortable to breath on my non dominant side so I don't do it often. My stroke is definitely not beautiful but it's well beyond doggie stroke. I can swim comfortably but I have a lot of areas to improve.
I'm sure Total Immersion could help but if there are a lot of recommendations to start with TI but eventually transition to swimsmooth, should I just get swimsmooth?

Ya, I'd say just go straight to swimsmooth; that said, as Kevin in MD pointed out, it is very easy to go down a dead-end street trying to interpret various guidance on your own. In your OP, you say that a masters team or coach is not feasible but are there no good swimmers at your pool??? Assuming that there are a few, I'd try to get one of them to help you with your stroke, plus you could try to keep up with them by swimming shorter repeats than they're swimming, e.g. you sprint a 25 or 50 when they're doing 200 or 300 repeats. While you're taking your extra rest, watch their stroke and try to imitate it when you're swimming. IME, having a good visual model in your mind is very helpful in getting a nice smooth stroke ingrained in your muscle memory, so choose a swimmer whose stroke you like the most and think you can maybe replicate, albeit at a slower pace. Most importantly, continue to enjoy your swims. :)

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: Total Immersion books/dvd's review wanted [Kaywould] [ In reply to ]

Jul 2, 17 10:36

Post #12 of 17 (6830 views)

Kaywould wrote:

I'm sure Total Immersion could help but if there are a lot of recommendations to start with TI but eventually transition to swimsmooth, should I just get swimsmooth?

I'm certainly not an authority, but in my opinion, no. I'd go to TI first. TI is (was?) obsessed with...
Long and skinny body position, both in terms of parts of the body going too wide, and also too deep.
Slow stroke rate with big rotation in order to allow you to very carefully focus on the minute details of your pull.

By stroking dead slow and obsessing over being long and skinny, I finally figured out what I was supposed to be doing. I figured out how to drop my drag down to something reasonable, how to get a great big arm full of water, and how to time my rotation such that my major muscles are doing the work. Well, on good laps that all seems to work. Once I get tired it all kinda goes to shit.

When you stroke slow, especially with a pull-buoy, you can really feel when a stroke goes exactly right. You get a huge armfull of water and, using your abs and hips, you pull yourself past your arm. That slow stroke will also make it clear when you don't get it right. That feedback and analysis of each stroke is how you improve your technique.

My point is that TI's obsession (my perception) over efficiency and their low stroke rate was really huge for me, and I don't think that I would have gotten that from Swimsmooth. What was particularly helpful from Swimsmooth is their little download swimmer dude. They helped me understand that my TI learned stroke rate was way way too slow, and helped speed up my stroke rate.

Someone here mentioned that TI's program has changed. I think they took heat re. over-gliding (causing low stroke rate) and that's a fair criticism. TI's (old) approach was prob fine for the recreational distance swimmer, but the stroke rate is way too low for competition. My only experience with TI was late '90's so I don't know what they're doing now.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

Re: Total Immersion books/dvd's review wanted [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]

Jul 2, 17 11:31

Post #13 of 17 (6824 views)

I found a reasonably priced used DVD of the TI: Perpetual Motion Freestyle in 10 lessons. I think I'll start with that and see where it takes me and then maybe look at swim smooth in the future.

I'm so slow I'm sure just improving my efficiency, even if it is a slow tempo stroke rate, will make me faster than I currently am.

Appreciate all the advice I've gotten.

Re: Total Immersion books/dvd's review wanted [Kaywould] [ In reply to ]

Jul 2, 17 11:47

Post #14 of 17 (6814 views)

Kaywould wrote:

I found a reasonably priced used DVD of the TI: Perpetual Motion Freestyle in 10 lessons. I think I'll start with that and see where it takes me and then maybe look at swim smooth in the future.

I'm so slow I'm sure just improving my efficiency, even if it is a slow tempo stroke rate, will make me faster than I currently am.

Appreciate all the advice I've gotten.

At our skill level, don't worry about fitness. Obsess over efficiency. By the time you fix that, you'll find that you've gained pretty decent fitness, and that your technique is good enough that your shoulders aren't getting chewed up. Much. Then you will be ready to experiment with big yardage and the repeats at higher intensity if that suits you.

Lots of very accomplished swimmers will tell you that the way to get fast is to swim long and hard. Big yardage and lots of intervals. But, imo, those folks have forgotten what it was like to suck. Some of them started swimming as youngsters and so never knew what it was like to suck. In contrast, I remember what it was like to suck like it was yesterday. Because, it was yesterday. From noon to 1PM in fact.

Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

Re: Total Immersion books/dvd's review wanted [Kaywould] [ In reply to ]

Jul 2, 17 12:27

Post #15 of 17 (6799 views)

TI taught me freestyle, backstroke, breaststroke, butterfly (& butterfrog) and combat swimmer stroke (with Stew Smith).

I learned from books, videos and a local TI coach who specifically worked on my freestyle with me.

I can't rate it enough BUT after achieving a certain level of competence I would recommend mixing things up a bit and not being so 'religious' in your training. I use that word deliberately. Something like a masters swim club and swimming like a competitive swimmer will give you a huge leap.

Also, much of what is in the books and modern videos is the same as what is already publicly available for free. This series of lectures is a very good starting point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97b6XIntfcc

Re: Total Immersion books/dvd's review wanted [Kaywould] [ In reply to ]

Jul 2, 17 16:08

Post #16 of 17 (6759 views)

Kaywould wrote:

I could definitely swim a mile right now but I'd be tired.

Umm, that never changes...

Re: Total Immersion books/dvd's review wanted [Kaywould] [ In reply to ]

Sep 20, 19 20:16

Post #17 of 17 (4509 views)

Does anyone have any successful stories to increase the speed of marathon swimmer using T.I. method? I'm now training in a squad but I now start to doubt the methodology. The squad coach always tell me to increase stroke rate, which will make my deadspots disappear, and I'm really faster if I do so, by omitting the reach at the front of stroke.

However, doing so requires much more aerobic demand than trying to actively reach as forward as possible (I couldn't stroke fast when I reach forward because my arms fatigue when I over-extend), and I currently still need more than 60 strokes to cross a 50 m pool, at whatever speed I can swim. Moreover, stroking faster will make me overheat as the water is too hot where I live for half a year in the year.

My 1.5 km time is about 31 minutes in both the pool and OW (without wetsuit) and my CSS time is about 1'54" / 100 m, and my aim is to get faster in marathon swimming. Should I grab a set of TI DVDs, watch them and practice what they teach? Is it likely to be helpful to get faster for marathon swimming without wetsuit?

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