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Too Much Exercise- Not Good News

 

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ZenRT

Jun 5, 12 16:19

Post #1 of 78 (5487 views)
Too Much Exercise- Not Good News Quote | Reply

The latest- released today from the Mayo Clinic.

http://cardionutrition.files.wordpress.com/...n-be-a-bad-thing.pdf


bombagrande

Jun 5, 12 19:29

Post #2 of 78 (5323 views)
Re: Too Much Exercise- Not Good News [ZenRT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

No responses? I tried playing devil's advocate too on my local Ironman Facebook group. Same result, no responses. I just want to know everyone's thoughts on this since so many Slowtwitchers are involved in these "extreme" activities.


ZenRT

Jun 5, 12 19:37

Post #3 of 78 (5304 views)
Re: Too Much Exercise- Not Good News [bombagrande] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

All I can say, both as a doctor and as an endurance athlete, is that this emerging evidence should be taken very seriously by many in the Slowtwitch crowd.


Dreadnought

Jun 5, 12 19:42

Post #4 of 78 (5287 views)
Re: Too Much Exercise- Not Good News [bombagrande] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

bombagrande wrote:
No responses? I tried playing devil's advocate too on my local Ironman Facebook group. Same result, no responses. I just want to know everyone's thoughts on this since so many Slowtwitchers are involved in these "extreme" activities.


from the abstract


Quote:
... may lead to patchy myocardial fibrosis, particularly in the atria, interventricular septum, and right ventricle, creating a substrate for atrial and ventricular arrhythmias. Additionally, long-term excessive sustained exercise may be associated with coronary artery calcification, diastolic dysfunction, and large-artery wall stiffening. However, this concept is still hypothetical and there is some inconsistency in the reported findings. Furthermore, lifelong vigorous exercisers generally have low mortality rates and excellent functional capacity. Notwithstanding, the hypothesis that long-term excessive endurance exercise may induce adverse CV remodeling warrants further investigation to identify at-risk individuals and formulate physical fitness regimens for conferring optimal CV health and longevity....

Key words are "may", "hypothetical", "inconsistency"

Doesn't sound like a convincing indictment, but I agree that further investigation is warranted


bombagrande

Jun 5, 12 19:50

Post #5 of 78 (5260 views)
Re: Too Much Exercise- Not Good News [ZenRT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Here is the accompanying video to the article:

http://medicalxpress.com/...-excessive-good.html


Fish2587

Jun 5, 12 20:23

Post #6 of 78 (5192 views)
Re: Too Much Exercise- Not Good News [bombagrande] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Well all I know is that there are countless endurance athletes that live long, healthy lives; that this is sad because one article like this will just give one more excuse for the obese to continue rotting away on the couch with their children; and that I much rather be moving daily than also rotting away on said couch. I'll take my chances :)


Experior

Jun 5, 12 20:28

Post #7 of 78 (5172 views)
Re: Too Much Exercise- Not Good News [ZenRT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

What's so great about living as long as possible?

----
Michael


windschatten

Jun 5, 12 20:40

Post #8 of 78 (5148 views)
Re: Too Much Exercise- Not Good News [ZenRT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Doesn't need to be all or nothing.

A lot of people don't get that.


LoriT

Jun 5, 12 20:43

Post #9 of 78 (5139 views)
Re: Too Much Exercise- Not Good News [ZenRT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I've worked 'hard' to overcome limitations due to CVID--and I've had to learn that too much exercise can be detrimental if I don't have a host of other factors all in line. I have a lower bar for error, let's just say. Nutrition, sleep, stress, etc. all play a huge factor on how much exercise AND intensity I can handle--and based on the basic science, I can only extrapolate this would be true for even the healthiest, but to a lesser degree. I don't 'LIKE' the fact that too much exercise can be harmful, but I have found it to be personally true. I would however, LIKE to do another long distance tri, as stubborn minded as I may be. From personal experience, I do believe that state of mind & lifestyle factors play a HUGE factor in health & longevity regardless of endurance activities etc.


Bone Idol

Jun 5, 12 21:04

Post #10 of 78 (5099 views)
Re: Too Much Exercise- Not Good News [ZenRT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

ZenRT wrote:
All I can say, both as a doctor and as an endurance athlete, is that this emerging evidence should be taken very seriously by many in the Slowtwitch crowd.

I'm sure. May I ask, though, wearing your doctor's hat, how we should take it seriously? Myself, for example. 51 yo, been an endurance athlete for nearly 30 years. Race IMs and ultras, dozens of each, at least 2 - 3 big ones each year, as hard and fast now as ever. If anyone has the 'lifestyle' risk factors for the types of conditions described, it would be me. So:

- are their reasonably straightforward tests/exams that I should be seeking to have done to determine if I have been pushing too hard and sustaining CV damage? Do I need to be a university lab rat, or could my GP refer me for an assessment by a cardiologist/other?

- are you, as a doctor, routinely advising against ultra level endurance sport participation? I recently received an annual check-up review from a doctor who is not my usual GP, and (although blood tests, blood pressure etc, etc were all perfect) she was horrified by my description of my training regime. Her serious suggestion was that I should stop the SBR immediately (OK, a little swimming, but not laps, just play) and take up a 30 minute daily yoga or tai chi session. I laughed in her fat face and determined not to consult her ever again. Was I being harsh and naive? Should I cancel my trip to Kona and enroll in a flower arrangement course instead?

In all seriousness, I'm committed to optimal health outcomes, but the research is unclear and a little ambiguous. Beyond "warrants further study", what is your takeaway?


nathan j

Jun 6, 12 4:14

Post #11 of 78 (4905 views)
Re: Too Much Exercise- Not Good News [ZenRT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

ZenRT wrote:
All I can say, both as a doctor and as an endurance athlete, is that this emerging evidence should be taken very seriously by the many in the Slowtwitch crowd who are faster than me at races.
.


TheRhino

Jun 6, 12 4:59

Post #12 of 78 (4838 views)
Re: Too Much Exercise- Not Good News [ZenRT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

The chart relating daily exercise to morbidity reduction seems to show a peak for vigorous exercise just below an hour, with 'moderate' exercise just below 2 hours. I don't know how they define vigorous and moderate but doesn't this sound like an average training week?

2-3x 1hr tempo sessions (run and bike - your vigorous work)
1x 2hr long run (done at a 'moderate' or easier pace)
1 x 3-5hr long bike (typically in Z2/3)
2-4x base work, technique, etc.

That would add up to a 14 hr training week at the max time levels with the only single workout violating the recommendations being the long bike.

Seems you can safely (according to their chart) work in some combination of 7 hours per week of hard exercise or trade those on a 2:1 basis with endurance pace efforts (to a max of 14 if all 'moderate').

- Mike
_______________________________________
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Calculate speed from power or vice versa using sliders/switches to set weight, position, tires, grade, etc.. Feedback welcome!


3Dealz

Jun 6, 12 5:46

Post #13 of 78 (4757 views)
Re: Too Much Exercise- Not Good News [bombagrande] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I think the chances of serious medical issues because of the 8+ hours that I spend sitting at a desk job out weight any of this. Even with 14+ hours/week of exercise I do.
I think my exercise just made it more tolerable.


Duffy

Jun 6, 12 5:57

Post #14 of 78 (4721 views)
Re: Too Much Exercise- Not Good News [ZenRT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Does this mean we are going to die at some point?


____________________________________________________
"This hip-hoppers ended up tightly connected with basketball along with highway dances."


spomeroy

Jun 6, 12 6:06

Post #15 of 78 (4698 views)
Re: Too Much Exercise- Not Good News [Duffy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

...it's very likely none of us are getting out of here alive..except that Lance guy..

cheers
S.
// qui audet vincit


lcreswell

Jun 6, 12 6:18

Post #16 of 78 (4665 views)
Re: Too Much Exercise- Not Good News [ZenRT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Excellent review article. Great reading. Recommend the article to your endurance athlete friends.

At the outset, it's important to remember that there are many well-established health benefits of exercise. The evidence is overwhelming.

We're only beginning now to understand the long-term cardiovascular consequences of exercise in detail. This article summarizes the rather small amount of available information about potential harm that may come from "excessive" exercise. It does seem entirely plausible, though, that, for at least some individuals, there is an amount of exercise that can become unhealthy.

Going forward, the challenge will be to identify which individual athletes are at risk of harm with "excessive" exercise....and to define some threshold (duration/intensity) which remains healthy. Obviously, more work in this area is needed.

The headlines in the popular press about this article are unfortunate because I suspect they will discourage some folks from exercising. And that's an opportunity lost.

Larry
Larry Creswell


aca_broj_1

Jun 6, 12 6:21

Post #17 of 78 (4651 views)
Re: Too Much Exercise- Not Good News [windschatten] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Yeah, that's something that bugs me as well. Whenever someone says anything bad against over exercising, the answer is always 'well, at least I'm not a 400lb slob who just sits on the couch!'. That is about as ridiculous as if the 400lb'er said 'well, at least I'm not starving myself to organ failure!'


moneydog59

Jun 6, 12 6:28

Post #18 of 78 (4628 views)
Re: Too Much Exercise- Not Good News [spomeroy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

or Jens...



"one eye doubles my eyesight, so things don't look half bad" John Hiatt


Terra-Man

Jun 6, 12 6:39

Post #19 of 78 (4591 views)
Re: Too Much Exercise- Not Good News [lcreswell] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Well, it shouldn't be too surprising to see findings such as elevated biomarkers of myocardial injury, or even areas of myocardial scar in endurance athletes...we certainly wouldn't be surprised to discover such findings in skeletal muscle....so the question is, "So what?" i.e. Are there any clinical sequelae? And, are there any measures to prevent scar tissue, such as specific diet changes, or aspirin, etc.

Sponsored by: Center for Breast Health at MS. Baptist Med. Ctr.
Member of Ironman Foundation/Newton Running Ambassador Team
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oceanlife

Jun 6, 12 6:46

Post #20 of 78 (4568 views)
Re: Too Much Exercise- Not Good News [ZenRT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

ZenRT wrote:
All I can say, both as a doctor and as an endurance athlete, is that this emerging evidence should be taken very seriously by many in the Slowtwitch crowd.

Are you a dentist?


ZenRT

Jun 6, 12 8:47

Post #21 of 78 (4463 views)
Re: Too Much Exercise- Not Good News [oceanlife] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

oceanlife wrote:
ZenRT wrote:
All I can say, both as a doctor and as an endurance athlete, is that this emerging evidence should be taken very seriously by many in the Slowtwitch crowd.


Are you a dentist?

Actually, among the many things I do, one thing I do is look at endomyocardial biopsies. So I am very familiar with post-ischemic myocardial fibrosis (i.e. scarring).

Exercise is good for you. No news there. What is news is that there is accumulating evidence that exercising to the point of low grade cardiac ischemia produces pathologic myocardial fibrosis. In SOME people this fibrosis appears to hasten or induce the onset of things like atrial fibrillation, need for a pacemaker, or worst case scenario, sudden arrhythmia related cardiac death.

I brought this review article to everyone's attention as a public service and not to threaten anyone's lifestyle choices.

YMMV. Thanks.


squid

Jun 6, 12 9:43

Post #22 of 78 (4365 views)
Re: Too Much Exercise- Not Good News [Fish2587] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

one article like this will just give one more excuse for the obese to continue rotting away on the couch

All or nothing mentality. There are distances shorter than 140.3, you know. One doesn't have to run a marathon in order to exercise for health



squid

Jun 6, 12 9:46

Post #23 of 78 (4348 views)
Re: Too Much Exercise- Not Good News [ZenRT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

not to threaten anyone's lifestyle choices

You must be new here.



........

Jun 6, 12 9:50

Post #24 of 78 (4324 views)
Re: Too Much Exercise- Not Good News [ZenRT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

And data shows that for many the onset of AFib is vagally mediated, and somewhat adaptative in nature, without an underlying pathological issue.
Not to mention that there is no established causality here, merely reports of potential association of issues in some people at risk...


Fish2587

Jun 6, 12 10:16

Post #25 of 78 (4277 views)
Re: Too Much Exercise- Not Good News [squid] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Not quite sure where I implied otherwise? I'm well aware of all distances. My point is that these 'studies' come out and there are way too many people looking for any excuse to continue doing nothing. It only perpetuates that. You think the majority of the population that see the quick yahoo headline on this really delineate between endurance exercise and shorter exercise? They see only 'exercise is bad for you.' Im really not sure where you came up with that conclusion from my response.

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