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To Kiley, and the rest of the crew at A2
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i haven't seen the data and obviously nobody has seen the write-up but at first blush, from what i can see: bravo. you guys did a really nice job. thanks for your hard work.

i'm sure my reticence, caveats and stated concerns made your lives harder. to the degree that made the test better, then great. to the degree it didn't (because it was going to be well done anyway), i regret that.

if you don't mind i'm going to make the following guesses, proclamations, statements, predictions (we'll see if i turn out to be right):

- to brian and heath who, by all accounts i've heard, produced an excellent test, i suspect you have a new revenue stream if you want it. just, i'll bet it's a lot more nerve wracking and exacting testing 5 bikes with the same position than testing 5 positions on the same bike.

- to kiley: my posture as moderator here has always been consistent: i stand up for the folks on the inside who do the hard work (harder work than those on the outside ever suspect). you're on the inside now, which means i'll stand up for you when those on the outside take unfair shots at you (at least as regards this test!).

- about that P5X, which you didn't want to take to the tunnel because it was obviously no match aerodynamically for the other bikes, i'll be interested to see if you still feel that way once the test is published.

- same for disc brake tri bikes. i'll eat my hat if the disc brake bikes, as a pair, test more than 2 watts slower than the 2 best disc rim brake bikes you tested, in a blended sweep, and normalized down to 24mph (where people actually ride their bikes).

- there are no dogs when you get to the pointy end. bike makers today know what they're doing. i suspect that tire choices, and matching the best tire shape to the wheels you own, ends up making as much more more difference than the best frame to the worst frame among the new bikes tested. (we'll see if i just embarrassed myself with this statement.)

- i would also bet that the bikes are so close that hydration and storage preferences, ability to work on these bikes, travel with them, overwhelm the aero differences and (along with price, ability to obtain the bike, warranty, ability to test ride the bike) become the purchase imperatives.

- and finally, kiley, your cockpit is too long. this didn't matter in the test, because your cockpit was universally too long. but your position could use a little fiddling in my opinion. once it's dialed, THAT will make more difference than which of these 6 bikes you're riding, which is why i scratch my head at the keen interest among consumers in buying this versus that bike, in light of the fairly cavalier approach by so many users in how to ride properly on the product.

it was fun to watch. once you guys recover you ought to do it with helmets, where i suspect you might see a larger delta between the products than you may have seen with these frames.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: To Kiley, and the rest of the crew at A2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I am just going to predicted that all the test show all bikes are within 1% of each other! Thanks for testing guys! Bravo.

Would have loved to have seen felt and dimond in the mix to, but always limitations.

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Re: To Kiley, and the rest of the crew at A2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Dan. We learned a lot and will be sifting through this data for a while. I'll just urge everyone to be patient while we get it all in a presentable form and make sure triple check our work.

And yes, it was more nerve wracking in some ways to make sure everything was consistent. Luckily Dan, Kiley and Jimmy made sure everything was measured ahead of time. Kiley also rode like a champ and rock solid all day. In other ways it was more relaxed, doing a long yaw sweep with rider on and off gives one a lot of time to simply wait around until the next run. Doing rider optimization is more taxing as we only do two yaw point and hustle back and forth in and out of the tunnel. Both present their own unique challenges.

Thanks also goes to Geoff at A2 who worked out a couple of bugs with the mounts on the P5X. Luckily we have a long and very good working relationship with him and A2 and he stopped the clock for us. I don't think that would have happened at another windtunnel.

Lastly thanks to everyone who donated to make this happen. We had a blast, we got good data, and I feel accomplished what we set out to do. Now it is time for a beer.

Heath



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp March 8-10 A2 Wind Tunnel
Last edited by: Ex-cyclist: Apr 18, 17 15:18
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Re: To Kiley, and the rest of the crew at A2 [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Heath can you comment on Brian D falling asleep mid day during testing?

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https://www.strava.com/...toothengineer/?hl=en
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Re: To Kiley, and the rest of the crew at A2 [BBLOEHR] [ In reply to ]
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Hahahhahahha. We were up pretty late and I was tired.

Powered by All Out MultiSport - http://www.aomultisport.com/
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Re: To Kiley, and the rest of the crew at A2 [BBLOEHR] [ In reply to ]
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We were finished testing Cervelos so he lost interest? haha


BBLOEHR wrote:
Heath can you comment on Brian D falling asleep mid day during testing?



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp March 8-10 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: To Kiley, and the rest of the crew at A2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Dan. I obviously have much much more to say and I have longer posts and thoughts and responses to you in me. A couple things now

First, thank you for the welcoming to the club. As I said to you elsewhere, I can and will contribute to the sport and slowtwitch, even though I will always say critical things to people and about things I think warrant it, including you and Jordan and Cervelo -- I will just try to do it in a way that isn't so divisive and cruel.

Second, for all your predictions I had one too -- I absolutely knew this forum generally and you specifically would criticize my fit. That's what we do here! But, I agree that the cockpit is too long.

The reality is that I, with adult supervision and leadership, built three of these bikes from the ground up at the last days: the Felt B2 last Sunday (hat tip one line Robert); the Diamondback Andean (hat tip Philly Bikesmith and Max); and the Cervelo P5 (hat tip Dan Kennison and Inside Out Sports). I had to cut these four sets of very expensive Zipp extensions which I acquired for this test, and the way the Corsair is designed you have to cut it just right which imperils the resale value. So I went long. Beyond that I didn't even have a chance to ride any of these things except in the hotel parking lot for a few laps -- not even on a damn trainer -- so I am amazed I nailed it as well as I did given all the changes we had to make (stack up, saddle back a touch, etc.)

Really pleased with how it all came together here. Position wasn't the point of this test!

On the predictions,I suspect you may be on point or sniffing in the right direction with some of them
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Re: To Kiley, and the rest of the crew at A2 [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
Second, for all your predictions I had one too -- I absolutely knew this forum generally and you specifically would criticize my fit. That's what we do here!

I almost forgot...your seat is too high ;-)



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: To Kiley, and the rest of the crew at A2 [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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i HOPE you will criticize what you find worthy of critique. mostly i think the exercise has been good for you because you know a little bit more now how hard folks work to produce the products for sale that we buy.

now, honestly, you might even have worked harder than some of the folks who're in the industry. i suspect you lost a few hours of sleep getting ready for this test. but the rigor you guys put into this shows what the industry standard is (or should be) for this kind of comparative test.

i've seen bike makers really struggle with how to choose a competitor's bike in the right size, with the particular configuration that shows that bike in its best light. one of the issues in comparative tests is that every bike has its best set of native configurations. i suspect that if all those bikes were set up to fit me, instead of you, there may have been some jockeying in the results because a particular bike is better as a narrow/tall versus long/low and so forth.

i think you guys did as good a job as i've ever seen in normalizing all the bikes so that the test was fair and accurate.

pardon the digression. my point is that a bike done right is a tremendous lift, from research to industrial design to engineering, CFD, tunnel testing, back to the drawing board, then field testing, fatigue testing, kinetic failures, oxidative failures (rust), cosmetic failures and so on. i remember when cannondale used to have a lab (maybe they still do) that not only tests its bikes, but tests all the components they might buy from suppliers.

i'm proud of our industry. i think now you have a new set of criticisms you can levy, which are those to the companies that DON'T do the testing you just went through, and those criticisms will carry more weight because you took the time and invested the energy yourself.

nice work.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: To Kiley, and the rest of the crew at A2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i from what i can see

Where? Are the pictures / video / a post I am missing?
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Re: To Kiley, and the rest of the crew at A2 [Mike Alexander] [ In reply to ]
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Mike Alexander wrote:
Slowman wrote:
i from what i can see

Where? Are the pictures / video / a post I am missing?
On Facebook. The link is early in on the test day thread , top of page
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Re: To Kiley, and the rest of the crew at A2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:


- and finally, kiley, your cockpit is too long. this didn't matter in the test, because your cockpit was universally too long. but your position could use a little fiddling in my opinion. .

Dan, we really need to get you down from your mountaintop redoubt and into the tunnel ;)

Refer back to your "choosing a bike from the aerobar back" article for inspiration

Eric Reid | Optimized AeroFit
- Triathlon Optimized |Aerodynamic Bike Fitting | Retul Pre-Purchase Bike Fitting | Triathlon Coaching
- Zipp, SRAM, Quarq, Profile, Vision, Shimano, BlueSeventy
- Cervelo, QR, Cannondale, Boardman, Litespeed, Ventum
Ask me: Scody Optimized Speed Suits | CeramicSpeed Oversized Pulley Systems | HUUB Skinsuits and Wetsuits | UNC Tri Team Tuesday Night Track Workout
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Re: To Kiley, and the rest of the crew at A2 [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for all the hardwork. Can't wait to see the results!
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Re: To Kiley, and the rest of the crew at A2 [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, not a fitter. But I think a certain amount of reach is personal. Ie I could never have (upper) arm angle at 70-90 degrees.

More like 50-60 or so for me. Allows a better shrug and I can tilt and get my elbows tighter.

Personal opinion and all that,
Maurice

http://www.multisportsolutions.com
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Re: To Kiley, and the rest of the crew at A2 [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]
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it's not personal opinion... that's the point of the tunnel ;)

mauricemaher wrote:
Yeah, not a fitter. But I think a certain amount of reach is personal. Ie I could never have (upper) arm angle at 70-90 degrees.

More like 50-60 or so for me. Allows a better shrug and I can tilt and get my elbows tighter.

Personal opinion and all that,
Maurice

Eric Reid | Optimized AeroFit
- Triathlon Optimized |Aerodynamic Bike Fitting | Retul Pre-Purchase Bike Fitting | Triathlon Coaching
- Zipp, SRAM, Quarq, Profile, Vision, Shimano, BlueSeventy
- Cervelo, QR, Cannondale, Boardman, Litespeed, Ventum
Ask me: Scody Optimized Speed Suits | CeramicSpeed Oversized Pulley Systems | HUUB Skinsuits and Wetsuits | UNC Tri Team Tuesday Night Track Workout
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Re: To Kiley, and the rest of the crew at A2 [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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Yes that was my point, personal "experience" perhaps, what could be described as against convention, Was both faster and more comfortable to me.

Maurice

http://www.multisportsolutions.com
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Re: To Kiley, and the rest of the crew at A2 [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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After listening to TRS podcast I kicked over 25$ to your gofundme. Very much enjoyed the discussion and it got me enthused for the project like the threads never did. Looking forward to a proper presentation of the data.
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Re: To Kiley, and the rest of the crew at A2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i haven't seen the data and obviously nobody has seen the write-up but at first blush, from what i can see: bravo. you guys did a really nice job. thanks for your hard work.

i'm sure my reticence, caveats and stated concerns made your lives harder. to the degree that made the test better, then great. to the degree it didn't (because it was going to be well done anyway), i regret that.

if you don't mind i'm going to make the following guesses, proclamations, statements, predictions (we'll see if i turn out to be right):

- to brian and heath who, by all accounts i've heard, produced an excellent test, i suspect you have a new revenue stream if you want it. just, i'll bet it's a lot more nerve wracking and exacting testing 5 bikes with the same position than testing 5 positions on the same bike.

- to kiley: my posture as moderator here has always been consistent: i stand up for the folks on the inside who do the hard work (harder work than those on the outside ever suspect). you're on the inside now, which means i'll stand up for you when those on the outside take unfair shots at you (at least as regards this test!).

- about that P5X, which you didn't want to take to the tunnel because it was obviously no match aerodynamically for the other bikes, i'll be interested to see if you still feel that way once the test is published.

- same for disc brake tri bikes. i'll eat my hat if the disc brake bikes, as a pair, test more than 2 watts slower than the 2 best disc rim brake bikes you tested, in a blended sweep, and normalized down to 24mph (where people actually ride their bikes).

- there are no dogs when you get to the pointy end. bike makers today know what they're doing. i suspect that tire choices, and matching the best tire shape to the wheels you own, ends up making as much more more difference than the best frame to the worst frame among the new bikes tested. (we'll see if i just embarrassed myself with this statement.)

- i would also bet that the bikes are so close that hydration and storage preferences, ability to work on these bikes, travel with them, overwhelm the aero differences and (along with price, ability to obtain the bike, warranty, ability to test ride the bike) become the purchase imperatives.

- and finally, kiley, your cockpit is too long. this didn't matter in the test, because your cockpit was universally too long. but your position could use a little fiddling in my opinion. once it's dialed, THAT will make more difference than which of these 6 bikes you're riding, which is why i scratch my head at the keen interest among consumers in buying this versus that bike, in light of the fairly cavalier approach by so many users in how to ride properly on the product.

it was fun to watch. once you guys recover you ought to do it with helmets, where i suspect you might see a larger delta between the products than you may have seen with these frames.

To summarize the two lines in bold that you typed up....looks like what you are saying is "all these bikes are fine aero wise for most of us....just get the bike that you can wrench and travel with in your price range and get properly set up on it. If Kiley's community service leads us to this outcome, that's a great thing. I've been saying that the aero diff between most of these bikes is not large enough for MOST triathletes to affect the purchasing decision.
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Re: To Kiley, and the rest of the crew at A2 [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
kileyay wrote:

Second, for all your predictions I had one too -- I absolutely knew this forum generally and you specifically would criticize my fit. That's what we do here!


I almost forgot...your seat is too high ;-)

All is right in the world...
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Re: To Kiley, and the rest of the crew at A2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Firstly, I love how the only photo we have of Heath in the front page article doesn't include his head because he is too tall to fit into the frame.



Secondly, below quoted for later follow-up, just in case :-)

Slowman wrote:
- same for disc brake tri bikes. i'll eat my hat if the disc brake bikes, as a pair, test more than 2 watts slower than the 2 best disc rim brake bikes you tested, in a blended sweep, and normalized down to 24mph (where people actually ride their bikes).


And this is the hat.



Thirdly I thought you lads did a smashing job and I was happy to have chipped in a few quid. Really looking forward to the write up.
Last edited by: knighty76: Apr 19, 17 2:18
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Re: To Kiley, and the rest of the crew at A2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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In the end, the story is "The guy who lambasted Cervelo for releasing a rubbish test, and the guy who adored Cervelo despite said test, went to the tunnel together to do a better job than Cervelo ever could".

If the P5X comes out better than the P5 even with Kiley's super-clean setup, then I hope Cervelo send him a nice thank-you present for doing the job they should've been doing themselves: Not just design a functionally-brilliant product (let's see the tunnel results first) but also market it with better data.

ZONE3 - We Last Longer
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Re: To Kiley, and the rest of the crew at A2 [knighty76] [ In reply to ]
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Did you guys get a chance to test Indurain on his Ventum



or Boardman (we're actually coming up on the 25th year anniversary of the ride below)


Last edited by: devashish_paul: Apr 19, 17 5:31
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Re: To Kiley, and the rest of the crew at A2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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There's another test going on here that interests me far more than wind tunnels and drag. It's the test that demonstrates less anonymity equals better behavior. So far the results look good: "I will just try to do it in a way that isn't so divisive and cruel."

Ian
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Re: To Kiley, and the rest of the crew at A2 [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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can i ask you a protocol question? and it's a lead-up to another question, but i want to understand this first. at the A2 tunnel, my assumption is that the rider turns the rear wheel, just like a bike trainer. and a servo turns the front wheel (at the tunnel's wind speed).

do i understand this right? so far? or are the rider-aboard-test wheels spun in some other way?


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: To Kiley, and the rest of the crew at A2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
can i ask you a protocol question? and it's a lead-up to another question, but i want to understand this first. at the A2 tunnel, my assumption is that the rider turns the rear wheel, just like a bike trainer. and a servo turns the front wheel (at the tunnel's wind speed).

do i understand this right? so far? or are the rider-aboard-test wheels spun in some other way?
I might become a Kiley fan if you tell me he held perfectly still on all those tests on rollers :)
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