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Tim Don - Campeche 70.3
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Anyone notice Tim Don's dominant performance today?

He came into T2 with a 5+ minute lead over Cody Beals and Trevor Wurtele. Split a 2:07 on the bike. Cody and Trevor split a 2:11 and Rapp went 2:13.

I honesty didn't know he had that kind of biking ability. I felt like he was pretty quiet last year. I have always liked him so I hope he's able to build on this.

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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
I honesty didn't know he had that kind of biking ability.

He doesn't. He got a massive tow from the moto.

What a good thing it is for men to have ears which are open to frankness and truth instead of flattery. -Plutarch

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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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I'm gettin a disc. :)
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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PubliusValerius wrote:
stevej wrote:
I honesty didn't know he had that kind of biking ability.

He doesn't. He got a massive tow from the moto.

Are you just saying that or is there proof/quote saying so?

I thought this might be a possibility but I couldn't find any photos or any "triexcuses" on Twitter

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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Are you just saying that...

Consider the source.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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From what I read on twitter he's been working with Matt Bottrill for his bike training. Matt himself was a top Time Trialler in the UK and has now moved into multisport.

Matt runs a company that coaches lots of the top TTers in UK and they have branched out in coaching triathletes and duathletes too over the past year or 2.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
PubliusValerius wrote:
stevej wrote:
I honesty didn't know he had that kind of biking ability.


He doesn't. He got a massive tow from the moto.


Are you just saying that

I'm just saying that. But, come on. There is no way in hell Tim Don has four minutes worth of watts on Trevor and Cody. Not in any universe.

There is a circus at the front of these races and given that this was a first year race with (maybe?) a first time moto person, I think that explains it.

He doesn't win this race without a moto draft. Cody does.

Or maybe he's just working with a new cycling coach. That seems more likely.

What a good thing it is for men to have ears which are open to frankness and truth instead of flattery. -Plutarch

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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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PubliusValerius wrote:
stevej wrote:
PubliusValerius wrote:
stevej wrote:
I honesty didn't know he had that kind of biking ability.


He doesn't. He got a massive tow from the moto.


Are you just saying that


I'm just saying that. But, come on. There is no way in hell Tim Don has four minutes worth of watts on Trevor and Cody. Not in any universe.

There is a circus at the front of these races and given that this was a first year race with (maybe?) a first time moto person, I think that explains it.

He doesn't win this race without a moto draft. Cody does.

Or maybe he's just working with a new cycling coach. That seems more likely.

Pubes can you please do the math on how many extra watts Tim Don would have had to generate to create this 4-5 min gap. This will give light to the guys how much crazy improvement Tim would have to have achieved. Or how much CdA Tim would have to have improved. I doubt at this point in his career his watts are magically going up (they just don't at this stage in a long career, because if they did, it means his engine improved, so his run should get better too). So that leaves improved aerodynamics and that is either self generated or moto generated. I'm going with the camp of Moto assist. Maybe he got more aero, but not 4 min worth. At the same time, I'll defend him with what Monty said maybe 25 years ago, "if the moto can't outbike the race leader, then the race leader earned the draft". It's really the organizer's problem, not the race leader.


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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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I knew this would be a topic on slowtwitch today lol


What about Kaye opening up a 4:12 gap on Fredericksen in the first 27 miles of Puerto Rico?
Last edited by: Sean H: Mar 20, 17 5:59
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Whatever happened to "Tim had a great day, the others had a solid day." Some people just find another gear for races once in a while.

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [boobooaboo] [ In reply to ]
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boobooaboo wrote:
Whatever happened to "Tim had a great day, the others had a solid day." Some people just find another gear for races once in a while.

Unfortunately that sort of attitude died a long time ago. Once everyone became aware that almost all pro athletes dope, there are no more great days. Kind of sucks.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Pubes can you please do the math on how many extra watts Tim Don would have had to generate to create this 4-5 min gap. This will give light to the guys how much crazy improvement Tim would have to have achieved. Or how much CdA Tim would have to have improved. I doubt at this point in his career his watts are magically going up (they just don't at this stage in a long career, because if they did, it means his engine improved, so his run should get better too). So that leaves improved aerodynamics and that is either self generated or moto generated. I'm going with the camp of Moto assist. Maybe he got more aero, but not 4 min worth. At the same time, I'll defend him with what Monty said maybe 25 years ago, "if the moto can't outbike the race leader, then the race leader earned the draft". It's really the organizer's problem, not the race leader.

Jordan rode 2:14 on about 300 watts, so I'll use that as my reference point. Holding effective CdA (and weight) equal for him, Cody, Trevor, and Don -- which of course isn't reality, but it's a proxy -- the maths goes like this:

Rapp: ~300W
Wurtele: ~312W
Beals: ~315W
Tim Don: ~340W

Keep in mind that basically nobody on the circuit can push 340 Watts for a 70.3 except for Lionel, Starky, Weiss. Maybe one or two others. But not Tim fucking Don. He doesn't outride those guys by 25 watts. Not happening.

What a good thing it is for men to have ears which are open to frankness and truth instead of flattery. -Plutarch

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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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Well if Cody follows his pattern of openness we will soon see his training peaks (or whatever it is) file for the race and know exactly what he put out. Lets remember Cody can put out more than 40kph on about 270w thanks to setup. So the power required to outbike him by 4 minutes may not be in the 340 region as quoted above.


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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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PubliusValerius wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Pubes can you please do the math on how many extra watts Tim Don would have had to generate to create this 4-5 min gap. This will give light to the guys how much crazy improvement Tim would have to have achieved. Or how much CdA Tim would have to have improved. I doubt at this point in his career his watts are magically going up (they just don't at this stage in a long career, because if they did, it means his engine improved, so his run should get better too). So that leaves improved aerodynamics and that is either self generated or moto generated. I'm going with the camp of Moto assist. Maybe he got more aero, but not 4 min worth. At the same time, I'll defend him with what Monty said maybe 25 years ago, "if the moto can't outbike the race leader, then the race leader earned the draft". It's really the organizer's problem, not the race leader.


Jordan rode 2:14 on about 300 watts, so I'll use that as my reference point. Holding effective CdA (and weight) equal for him, Cody, Trevor, and Don -- which of course isn't reality, but it's a proxy -- the maths goes like this:

Rapp: ~300W
Wurtele: ~312W
Beals: ~315W
Tim Don: ~340W

Keep in mind that basically nobody on the circuit can push 340 Watts for a 70.3 except for Lionel, Starky, Weiss. Maybe one or two others. But not Tim fucking Don. He doesn't outride those guys by 25 watts. Not happening.

There are also a couple of data points for Weiss @ 9k & 31.5k before the collision that took him out. 28" and 58" down to winner, while faster than any of the other top 5 MPros thru the first two splits.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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PubliusValerius wrote:
stevej wrote:
I honesty didn't know he had that kind of biking ability.

He doesn't. He got a massive tow from the moto.

Moto could be interpreted in so many ways these days 😉



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http://benmunguia.blogspot.com
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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PubliusValerius wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Pubes can you please do the math on how many extra watts Tim Don would have had to generate to create this 4-5 min gap. This will give light to the guys how much crazy improvement Tim would have to have achieved. Or how much CdA Tim would have to have improved. I doubt at this point in his career his watts are magically going up (they just don't at this stage in a long career, because if they did, it means his engine improved, so his run should get better too). So that leaves improved aerodynamics and that is either self generated or moto generated. I'm going with the camp of Moto assist. Maybe he got more aero, but not 4 min worth. At the same time, I'll defend him with what Monty said maybe 25 years ago, "if the moto can't outbike the race leader, then the race leader earned the draft". It's really the organizer's problem, not the race leader.

Jordan rode 2:14 on about 300 watts, so I'll use that as my reference point. Holding effective CdA (and weight) equal for him, Cody, Trevor, and Don -- which of course isn't reality, but it's a proxy -- the maths goes like this:

Rapp: ~300W
Wurtele: ~312W
Beals: ~315W
Tim Don: ~340W

Keep in mind that basically nobody on the circuit can push 340 Watts for a 70.3 except for Lionel, Starky, Weiss. Maybe one or two others. But not Tim fucking Don. He doesn't outride those guys by 25 watts. Not happening.

I think what Pubes has shown is a decent starting point. We would have to see Tim show he is around 25-40W more slippery to have earned that lead off the same watts as say Jordan or put out more watts for the same aeroness of Jordan. If not we are stuck with the drafting of the moto causing the more slippery environment.


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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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He could have just been much better in windy/hilly/hot conditions.

The last leg of the bike had the leader back in at average speed of 51:59kph.

Jordan Rapp manged only 46.55 over the last 13.5km (split 17:24)

Wurtele 49.35 (split 16:24)
Beals 49.09 (split 16:30)
Don 51.59 (split 15:42)

Losing nearly two minutes to the race leader on a short section with the wind on your back should not start a discussion about moto drafting or relative aero efficiency. It should start a discussion about crapping the bed on your race tactics, riding ability and effort.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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I honesty didn't know he had that kind of biking ability. I felt like he was pretty quiet last year. I have always liked him so I hope he's able to build on this.


Early season races like this are often hard to read or to draw conclusions from. These are often the first races for the athletes in a number of months - "rust-busters" we call them.

Different athletes take a different approach to the "off-season". How the off-season goes is often dependent on how the previous year went. The off-season may have been a true off-season. Or it could have been a time of some seriously heavy training. First races of the season are very often train-through affairs, so the athlete may have not been tapered or rested at all and coming into the race right off a big-block of training. Or they are just starting to build back up now!

This is also a time of experimentation, and refinement with new equipment via new sponsors - training with the stuff is one thing, but going at it at race-intensity effort can be something else entirely.

Athletes are sometimes there due to sponsor obligations, so they show up, have a go at it and do the best they can on the day - and know that it's literally for them a C-level race!

More going on than meets the eye or seen on the results sheet!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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. So that leaves improved aerodynamics and that is either self generated or moto generated. I'm going with the camp of Moto assist.

Matt Bottrill is obsessed with drag and aero. Friends of mine ride against him (I am not in that league, or even same bit of road!)
As a pure TT cyclist they take it to a different level than triathletes, not having to run afterwards.
He also believes that triathletes should train as if each discipline is separate, using the best know ideas for each. (at least he used to) rather than swim-bike-run

If Tim Don is working with him there is likely significant input/change on this parameter.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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tuckandgo wrote:


. So that leaves improved aerodynamics and that is either self generated or moto generated. I'm going with the camp of Moto assist.

Matt Bottrill is obsessed with drag and aero. Friends of mine ride against him (I am not in that league, or even same bit of road!)
As a pure TT cyclist they take it to a different level than triathletes, not having to run afterwards.
He also believes that triathletes should train as if each discipline is separate, using the best know ideas for each. (at least he used to) rather than swim-bike-run

If Tim Don is working with him there is likely significant input/change on this parameter.

I'm confused. You say at first you think his improved aerodynamics is more likely from a moto assist, but then go on to say if he's working with Matt Bottrill there is likely significant change "on this parameter" (you mean aerodynamics I assume). So which is it?

As Fleck points out above, there are other options - how well the athletes are trained early in the season, as well as how well they gauged their effort over the 90km.

It may be he received some moto benefit, but until someone who witnessed him doing so chimes in here, it's a bit presumptuous to assume that was the primary factor. It's not like Tim Don has come from nowhere to beat these guys. (2002 World Duathlon Champion, 2006 World Triathlon Champion, 3rd at the 2014 70.3 World Championship.)
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry - the first line is a quote from another poster - my reply is to that.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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tuckandgo wrote:


. So that leaves improved aerodynamics and that is either self generated or moto generated. I'm going with the camp of Moto assist.

Matt Bottrill is obsessed with drag and aero. Friends of mine ride against him (I am not in that league, or even same bit of road!)
As a pure TT cyclist they take it to a different level than triathletes, not having to run afterwards.
He also believes that triathletes should train as if each discipline is separate, using the best know ideas for each. (at least he used to) rather than swim-bike-run

If Tim Don is working with him there is likely significant input/change on this parameter.

There is inherently skepticism when sudden improvements in biking speed come from the leader on the bike in a race. It has been that was for 30+ years. In Kona they have fixed that problem ....other lower tier races this is not always the case. A great example was Ivan Rana's IM Austria bike split and win a few year ago. Next year, Marino shows up and takes the moto with him and suddenly Ivan is 15 minutes slower. It's not Don's fault, Ivan's fault or Marino's fault if they benefit from the moto....it is the race organizer....as Monty said, something along the lines of, "it's not my fault if I am leading the race and the moto does not have enough power to get out of my way".

Look at what Pubes posted above. Either Don gained watts, got more slippery than Rapp while generating similar watts as Rapp, or he got to push less air cause the moto was too slow. I'm tending towards the last one simply because this is a completely outlier performance for Don relative to his historic performances. I am a fan of the guy, so hold zero ill will. HE SHOULD DRAFT THE STUPID MOTO IF IT CAN'T GET OUT OF THE WAY!!!


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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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wouldn't Beals have been expected to out bike Wurtele? maybe he was having a slightly off day? that seems to be the only outlier in the bike splits. Maybe he was and Don had a great day.

and this is the problem with your logic. there are only a few pros in any of these races. some will have good days, some won't. there will therefore be someone who performs well and others who don't (vs their potential). the one who feels good and has a great day on the bike will lead the bike leg, with others who maybe aren't have such a good day trailing. by your logic, that leader is gaining a moto draft, whoever it is. you are saying that, by definition, anyone who performs above expectations vs their competitors is probably getting a moto draft. in some cases you may be right. in many cases though, you won't. it will just be that one athlete is having a good day and others may not. it could even be...horrors... that they trained harder for an early season race.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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tuckandgo wrote:


. So that leaves improved aerodynamics and that is either self generated or moto generated. I'm going with the camp of Moto assist.

Matt Bottrill is obsessed with drag and aero. Friends of mine ride against him (I am not in that league, or even same bit of road!)
As a pure TT cyclist they take it to a different level than triathletes, not having to run afterwards.
He also believes that triathletes should train as if each discipline is separate, using the best know ideas for each. (at least he used to) rather than swim-bike-run

If Tim Don is working with him there is likely significant input/change on this parameter.

Great Swim like Phelps. Despite the fact you don't have his aerobic capacity or wingspan
Bike like Froome in a super aggressive position so you can't possibly run afterwards
Then run like Kipsang who weighs as much as a pack of Marlboros.


What could go wrong...
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [Race1] [ In reply to ]
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Hey, don't shoot the messenger :-)
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