logella wrote:
Quote:
Are you just saying that...Consider the source.
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [logella]
[ In reply to ]
Consider the source.
2 thumbs up!
Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [Fleck]
[ In reply to ]
i mostly agree with what steve's said here, and would add that don's not some flash in the pan - he's been a hammer since the '90s and has toed more start lines that i've had hot dinners.
-mike
____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan
http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
-mike
____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan
http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [tuckandgo]
[ In reply to ]
tuckandgo wrote:
He also believes that triathletes should train as if each discipline is separate, using the best know ideas for each. (at least he used to) rather than swim-bike-run
If Tim Don is working with him there is likely significant input/change on this parameter.
Given their respective pasts, I sincerely doubt that Bottrill has much influence on how Tim trains for the swim and run!
Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [The Red Baron]
[ In reply to ]
People are difficult on here :-)
I was simply pointing out that Matt Borrtill uses a different approach to most tri coaches. I'm sure he is only helping Tim Don on the bike, although that is pure speculation.
I was simply pointing out that Matt Borrtill uses a different approach to most tri coaches. I'm sure he is only helping Tim Don on the bike, although that is pure speculation.
Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [tuckandgo]
[ In reply to ]
tuckandgo wrote:
People are difficult on here :-) I was simply pointing out that Matt Borrtill uses a different approach to most tri coaches. I'm sure he is only helping Tim Don on the bike, although that is pure speculation.
I am sure he is helping Tim, but 4 minutes over other pros at this stage of his career just sounds too good to be true. Different for a neo pro who could have a breakout career changing race. At this stage in his career, that big a gain points to the moto not being able to drive fast enough. Good on Tim for riding fast enough to push the Moto to its limits. It's not his problem if the moto driver is too slow, and everyone he was competing with had the change to race against the moto.
Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
So you completely ignored my last post? What if Beals just had an off day? What if he was just at the end of a hard training block? If so, nothing about the bike splits looks odd. You might be right (and I know you're not being critical of Don), but there is also a chance you're not.
Maybe Jordan can chime in on what he witnessed at the turn-arounds on the course (I believe there were three).
Maybe Jordan can chime in on what he witnessed at the turn-arounds on the course (I believe there were three).
Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [Kay Serrar]
[ In reply to ]
You're all missing something vital here. This is a triathlon, you need to look at all the splits...
Don's run was by far the slowest on the podium and on the slow end of the top 10. Don is an ace runner (28:40 10k from his prime ITU days + regular top splits at 70.3) but he was outrun by ~2+ minutes by Cody and Trevor, who are both very good runners but not guns.
So maybe the answer is that Don went much harder on the bike - has he been injured and needed a buffer to secure a win? Is he not confident in his run yet, it being so early in the season still? Is he trying out a new tactic? So far, his cycling is what lets him down, so maybe he's seeing what harder biking will do to his run and overall results.
Had he run 1:13 or faster off that bike split, then I think we'd have something to actually discuss.
Group Eleven – Websites for Athletes / mikael.racing / @mstaer
Don's run was by far the slowest on the podium and on the slow end of the top 10. Don is an ace runner (28:40 10k from his prime ITU days + regular top splits at 70.3) but he was outrun by ~2+ minutes by Cody and Trevor, who are both very good runners but not guns.
So maybe the answer is that Don went much harder on the bike - has he been injured and needed a buffer to secure a win? Is he not confident in his run yet, it being so early in the season still? Is he trying out a new tactic? So far, his cycling is what lets him down, so maybe he's seeing what harder biking will do to his run and overall results.
Had he run 1:13 or faster off that bike split, then I think we'd have something to actually discuss.
Group Eleven – Websites for Athletes / mikael.racing / @mstaer
Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [Staer]
[ In reply to ]
Staer wrote:
You're all missing something vital here. This is a triathlon, you need to look at all the splits... Don's run was by far the slowest on the podium and on the slow end of the top 10. Don is an ace runner (28:40 10k from his prime ITU days + regular top splits at 70.3) but he was outrun by ~2+ minutes by Cody and Trevor, who are both very good runners but not guns.
So maybe the answer is that Don went much harder on the bike - has he been injured and needed a buffer to secure a win? Is he not confident in his run yet, it being so early in the season still? Is he trying out a new tactic? So far, his cycling is what lets him down, so maybe he's seeing what harder biking will do to his run and overall results.
Had he run 1:13 or faster off that bike split, then I think we'd have something to actually discuss.
Very possible.
But it's also possible he only ran as fast as he needed to. Maybe he could have ran 1:10-1:13 but realized how big his lead was and only ran what he needed to in order to get the win.
blog
Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [stevej]
[ In reply to ]
This is more accurate to Tim's style of racing. Tim has often turned his run way down once he's figured he has the win. I'd be curious to see his pace (run) for the first 8-10 miles and then his pace towards the end.
I can't say if he was helped by the moto or not but Tim is a very strong rider. He's beaten those boys since starting 70.3 and IM racing so this performance doesn't surprise me or any of his competitors I am sure.
I can't say if he was helped by the moto or not but Tim is a very strong rider. He's beaten those boys since starting 70.3 and IM racing so this performance doesn't surprise me or any of his competitors I am sure.
Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [trimdc]
[ In reply to ]
trimdc wrote:
This is more accurate to Tim's style of racing. Tim has often turned his run way down once he's figured he has the win. I'd be curious to see his pace (run) for the first 8-10 miles and then his pace towards the end. I can't say if he was helped by the moto or not but Tim is a very strong rider. He's beaten those boys since starting 70.3 and IM racing so this performance doesn't surprise me or any of his competitors I am sure.
He came off the bike six minutes ahead of second place (Beals).
He's a smart veteran.
He was on cruise control.
"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz
Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [stevej]
[ In reply to ]
Wow there is a lot of BS in this thread. I don't know why STers need to look at things in absolutes. It was more than likely it was a little but of everything combined. I.e he got a little benefit from the moto, his watts are slightly up, his cda is slightly better, the others were slightly off. If you add up the small contribution from a number of factors it could easily account for the difference. In other words, nothing to see here apart from Don's good performance
Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [Kay Serrar]
[ In reply to ]
Kay Serrar wrote:
So you completely ignored my last post? What if Beals just had an off day? What if he was just at the end of a hard training block? If so, nothing about the bike splits looks odd. You might be right (and I know you're not being critical of Don), but there is also a chance you're not. Maybe Jordan can chime in on what he witnessed at the turn-arounds on the course (I believe there were three).
I am being critical of the race organizers, not Don. Don or whomever is in the front should ride as fast as they can/want. Any vehicles need to get out of the way and go way up the road. The onus is not on the race leader to slow down to not benefit from the lead vehicle. The onus is on the race director to get the stupid vehicle out of the way of the race and deliver a fair race to all parties.
I can almost guarantee you that Cody Beals was not wasting time traveling that far for a day where he is that much off. Maybe a bit off, but not that much.
Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [stevej]
[ In reply to ]
Here's another guy "just saying" the same thing I am:
Trevor [Wurtele]: Yeah, I was surprised at the gap. I really like Tim and he’s truly one of the triathlon greats. In Campeche though, I do think he was lucky to have some press and official motorbikes around him for those cross wind sections. He’s very particular about his gear selection and aero position, and obviously an amazing athlete, but I just don’t think 4 minutes is possible with the numbers myself, Cody, and Jordan were putting out. Such is racing though. It’s nothing new, and it’s not possible to avoid it if you want media coverage on a course with side winds. I’m speculating here though. I know Tim’s CdA is ridiculously low, and I’m sure riding 4+w/kg is not a big deal for him. Could very well have been a completely legit ride.
Quote:
ST: Tim Don put some serious time into all of you and his bike split was more than 4 minutes better than the next fastest time. Were you surprised when you got splits during the race? Trevor [Wurtele]: Yeah, I was surprised at the gap. I really like Tim and he’s truly one of the triathlon greats. In Campeche though, I do think he was lucky to have some press and official motorbikes around him for those cross wind sections. He’s very particular about his gear selection and aero position, and obviously an amazing athlete, but I just don’t think 4 minutes is possible with the numbers myself, Cody, and Jordan were putting out. Such is racing though. It’s nothing new, and it’s not possible to avoid it if you want media coverage on a course with side winds. I’m speculating here though. I know Tim’s CdA is ridiculously low, and I’m sure riding 4+w/kg is not a big deal for him. Could very well have been a completely legit ride.
Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [PubliusValerius]
[ In reply to ]
PubliusValerius wrote:
Here's another guy "just saying" the same thing I am: Quote:
ST: Tim Don put some serious time into all of you and his bike split was more than 4 minutes better than the next fastest time. Were you surprised when you got splits during the race? Trevor [Wurtele]: Yeah, I was surprised at the gap. I really like Tim and he’s truly one of the triathlon greats. In Campeche though, I do think he was lucky to have some press and official motorbikes around him for those cross wind sections. He’s very particular about his gear selection and aero position, and obviously an amazing athlete, but I just don’t think 4 minutes is possible with the numbers myself, Cody, and Jordan were putting out. Such is racing though. It’s nothing new, and it’s not possible to avoid it if you want media coverage on a course with side winds. I’m speculating here though. I know Tim’s CdA is ridiculously low, and I’m sure riding 4+w/kg is not a big deal for him. Could very well have been a completely legit ride.
CONSIDER THE SOURCE! Idiot...
"One Line Robert"
Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [rock]
[ In reply to ]
Eh, I would almost say the opposite in cases like these. Or atleast I dont think "adding up 8 variables = outlier performance". When you have steady improvements that is very much likely the case of fitness+specificity+aeroness, etc. But when an *outlier* performance occurs in athletics, there is usually an * to the performance. And I'm not saying anything illegal here, just from taking in what was said about the course and we know the motos on the front have been issues in the past.
ETA: And as Dev earlier stated, this is not really an athlete issue, nor should the athlete be held responsible to ride the "fair" way. It's the job of the race to do what it needs to do to get the media shots and then get out of the way.
Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
ETA: And as Dev earlier stated, this is not really an athlete issue, nor should the athlete be held responsible to ride the "fair" way. It's the job of the race to do what it needs to do to get the media shots and then get out of the way.
Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by:
B_Doughtie: Mar 23, 17 9:48
Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [B_Doughtie]
[ In reply to ]
It's not a huge surprise with a first year race in a new location. They're a lot more liable to have teething problems with how the motos cover the race than other races with more experience personnel i.e. have been yelled at before for being too close . This first year they were probably just happy to get motos to cover the race.
Hugh
Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
Hugh
Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [sciguy]
[ In reply to ]
Yes I made an edit to my post. Just dont turn around and say as a race organization the athlete should ride further back or not "draft". This isn't and shouldn't ever be on the athlete to solve.
Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [wsrobert]
[ In reply to ]
wsrobert wrote:
PubliusValerius wrote:
Here's another guy "just saying" the same thing I am: Quote:
ST: Tim Don put some serious time into all of you and his bike split was more than 4 minutes better than the next fastest time. Were you surprised when you got splits during the race? Trevor [Wurtele]: Yeah, I was surprised at the gap. I really like Tim and he’s truly one of the triathlon greats. In Campeche though, I do think he was lucky to have some press and official motorbikes around him for those cross wind sections. He’s very particular about his gear selection and aero position, and obviously an amazing athlete, but I just don’t think 4 minutes is possible with the numbers myself, Cody, and Jordan were putting out. Such is racing though. It’s nothing new, and it’s not possible to avoid it if you want media coverage on a course with side winds. I’m speculating here though. I know Tim’s CdA is ridiculously low, and I’m sure riding 4+w/kg is not a big deal for him. Could very well have been a completely legit ride.
CONSIDER THE SOURCE! Idiot...
What's wrong with Trevor as source??? Frankly, I have refrained from this thread and I am not going to get into after being annihilated last year on something similar but honestly things should be relatively obvious to people who are critical and understand what is possible and what isn't possible. Frankly, I would like to propose that just like we have GPS tracking at major Ironmans that we also have:
#1) Mandatory requirement for powermeters for pros. Calibrated by neutral source on race morning
#2) All bike computers are collected at T2.
#3) Results are compared to riders known data points and or inputted into a 3rd party system. Outliers are examined further. Media coverage doesn't get paid if it is determined they influenced the race, slightly pink... But seriously we aren't even attempting to understand the problem. This is livelihood for some.
Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [Thomas Gerlach]
[ In reply to ]
I honestly thought the comment by Trevor was very unwise. Basically, on no evidence, other than I was going hard so there is no way someone can have been going harder than me,he calls another athlete a cheat. He even admits he didn't have the visual on it.
1) Why is anybody surprised that Tim won this race. This is a class above the others at this distance. Lets remember when on form he was 3rd only to Javier/Jan at the WC.
2) He is quite small so maybe he has a lower drag.
3) Perhaps the course suited Tim more. Trevor own words "It starts off with a steep little climb and decent, then you hit rolling highway. Pretty solid rollers," I would guess this course suits a smaller/light biker like Tim?
4) Maybe he has made a step up.
5)Maybe he pushed the bike hard than normal.
Typical ST witch hunt.
1) Why is anybody surprised that Tim won this race. This is a class above the others at this distance. Lets remember when on form he was 3rd only to Javier/Jan at the WC.
2) He is quite small so maybe he has a lower drag.
3) Perhaps the course suited Tim more. Trevor own words "It starts off with a steep little climb and decent, then you hit rolling highway. Pretty solid rollers," I would guess this course suits a smaller/light biker like Tim?
4) Maybe he has made a step up.
5)Maybe he pushed the bike hard than normal.
Typical ST witch hunt.
Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [Thomas Gerlach]
[ In reply to ]
Thomas,
I think a more constructive approach would be for WTC to insist media / moto drivers attend pro briefing, at least for foreseeable future.
Plus RD at meeting....
- Brief drivers and pro's vehicles at all times should never be alongside a lead rider, i.e. between 2 o'clock & 4 o'clock and 8 & 10 o'clock.
- Brief drivers and pro's vehicles at all times they are in front of lead rider they are at least 50m in front, 100m if it is a car, irrespective of whether the are 'off to the side' or in front of rider.
- Brief drivers and pro's vehicles at all times if vehicle is behind rider may only be upto 20m and between 5 0'clock and 7 o'clock (ironically the upside of this would be if wind is a tail cross that the moto is limiting the sail effect of the rider)
That doesn't seem overly complicated to convey by any race organiser.
My 2c on the matter.
Regards
David
David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
I think a more constructive approach would be for WTC to insist media / moto drivers attend pro briefing, at least for foreseeable future.
Plus RD at meeting....
- Brief drivers and pro's vehicles at all times should never be alongside a lead rider, i.e. between 2 o'clock & 4 o'clock and 8 & 10 o'clock.
- Brief drivers and pro's vehicles at all times they are in front of lead rider they are at least 50m in front, 100m if it is a car, irrespective of whether the are 'off to the side' or in front of rider.
- Brief drivers and pro's vehicles at all times if vehicle is behind rider may only be upto 20m and between 5 0'clock and 7 o'clock (ironically the upside of this would be if wind is a tail cross that the moto is limiting the sail effect of the rider)
That doesn't seem overly complicated to convey by any race organiser.
My 2c on the matter.
Regards
David
David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [newManUK]
[ In reply to ]
newManUK wrote:
I honestly thought the comment by Trevor was very unwise. Basically, on no evidence, other than I was going hard so there is no way someone can have been going harder than me,he calls another athlete a cheat. He even admits he didn't have the visual on it. 1) Why is anybody surprised that Tim won this race. This is a class above the others at this distance. Lets remember when on form he was 3rd only to Javier/Jan at the WC.
2) He is quite small so maybe he has a lower drag.
3) Perhaps the course suited Tim more. Trevor own words "It starts off with a steep little climb and decent, then you hit rolling highway. Pretty solid rollers," I would guess this course suits a smaller/light biker like Tim?
4) Maybe he has made a step up.
5)Maybe he pushed the bike hard than normal.
Typical ST witch hunt.
So how about this, I know Tim is super polite, how about asking him to produce a power file and lets all analyze then. Please don't bait me, nobody wants to accuse anyone of anything. All Trevor was doing was making a simple argument based on physics.
Are you aware of what Cody Beals CdA is??? Are you aware of how much power Cody put out?
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Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [Thomas Gerlach]
[ In reply to ]
Well my point exactly. What physics is Trevor basing his point on? Does he have a table of all of this competitors Cdas, rolling resistance and power threshold?
Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [Thomas Gerlach]
[ In reply to ]
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
What's wrong with Trevor as source??? Frankly, I have refrained from this thread and I am not going to get into after being annihilated last year on something similar but honestly things should be relatively obvious to people who are critical and understand what is possible and what isn't possible. Frankly, I would like to propose that just like we have GPS tracking at major Ironmans that we also have:
#1) Mandatory requirement for powermeters for pros. Calibrated by neutral source on race morning
#2) All bike computers are collected at T2.
#3) Results are compared to riders known data points and or inputted into a 3rd party system. Outliers are examined further. Media coverage doesn't get paid if it is determined they influenced the race, slightly pink... But seriously we aren't even attempting to understand the problem. This is livelihood for some.
I could poke all kinds of holes in this and I know you could too. You should know better that this isn't reasonable or even reliable for the following reasons:
- sponsorship obligations to pm's/companies/head units
- compatibility of the same PM on everyone's bike. Can that frame work with a certain pm? What about drivetrain if it's a crank pm?
- not all pm's are going to read exactly the same
- what if there's communication issues (drops, spikes)?
- how do you ensure everyone has a pm with proper battery level?
- gps data is unreliable
blog
Re: Tim Don - Campeche 70.3 [newManUK]
[ In reply to ]
Why is anybody surprised that Tim won this race
________
I dont think anyone is surprised and even the ST article says that. It's the time that was won by, that was questioned. Big big difference there.
ETA: Like I said, more times than not in sports, outlier splits occur because of specific outlier conditions.
ETA #2- Motto drafting isn't something that is unheard of at IM races, so I think it's fair to atleast consider, and not act as if nothing happened there. To not add that as part of the story as as foolish on your part for trying to clarify how this result could have occurred. Maybe he never once drafted, but IM races at the front have had issues before. That's reality of situation, and necessary evil with getting media coverage.
Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
________
I dont think anyone is surprised and even the ST article says that. It's the time that was won by, that was questioned. Big big difference there.
ETA: Like I said, more times than not in sports, outlier splits occur because of specific outlier conditions.
ETA #2- Motto drafting isn't something that is unheard of at IM races, so I think it's fair to atleast consider, and not act as if nothing happened there. To not add that as part of the story as as foolish on your part for trying to clarify how this result could have occurred. Maybe he never once drafted, but IM races at the front have had issues before. That's reality of situation, and necessary evil with getting media coverage.
Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by:
B_Doughtie: Mar 23, 17 10:33
newManUK wrote:
Well my point exactly. What physics is Trevor basing his point on? Does he have a table of all of this competitors Cdas, rolling resistance and power threshold?How about direct video evidence? The moto is within several feet of Tim for the vast majority of the ride.
CONSIDER THE SOURCE
You guys are complete morons.
Last edited by:
PubliusValerius: Mar 23, 17 10:36