The influence of natural ability on swimming and running performance, as illustrated by dogs...

Apr 26, 17 10:43

Post #1 of 35 (3605 views)

I got 2 new dogs in late Jan 2017, 4.5 yr old Golden Retriever brothers who were kept in a 5' by 10' outside pen for first 4 yrs of their lives, so no exposure to running or swimming at all up to about human age 28. When they were first rescued, they lived with a foster family with a back yard pool; one of the dogs, Ben, discovered the pool on his 2nd or 3rd day there and starting going for a swim on his own initiative every day (there were steps into pool so he could get in and out easily.) OTOH, his brother, Charlie, never got into the pool during their 4-ish month stay at this house. Since I've had them, we've gone to run at this park right along side the TN River and Ben goes swimming every day, vs Charlie swims just a little but rather likes to run through the shallow water and splash a lot. They're both very good runners but Charlie really has more endurance as he is very, very hard to wear out. Ben is about 10 lb heavier and more muscular than Charlie, and seems to have an innate love for the water vs Charlie mostly loving to just run. It's your classic swimmer/runner dichotomy, but displayed in dogs vs humans, and this is despite them both being pure-bred retrievers, i.e. you'd think they'd both love the water but apparently not. This may not be of interest to many people but I think it is kind of fascinating to see ST swim discussions played out by my dogs. :)

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: The influence of natural ability on swimming and running performance, as illustrated by dogs... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Apr 26, 17 10:57

Post #2 of 35 (3563 views)

What you need now is a dog who can cycle. How aerodynamic is fur, anyway?

Re: The influence of natural ability on swimming and running performance, as illustrated by dogs... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Apr 26, 17 11:01

Post #3 of 35 (3549 views)

Can Ben do flip turns ? If not this entire discussion will be pointless

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "

Last edited by: Leddy: Apr 26, 17 11:02

Re: The influence of natural ability on swimming and running performance, as illustrated by dogs... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Apr 26, 17 11:04

Post #4 of 35 (3539 views)

I have three pure bred labs (two rescues, one we bought). One of them will swim until exhaustion and the other two will both wade in until their body touches the water but no deeper.

Your doggy swim/run dichotomy plays out in my house as well.

----------------------------
Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.

Re: The influence of natural ability on swimming and running performance, as illustrated by dogs... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Apr 26, 17 11:06

Post #5 of 35 (3532 views)

I think this discussion would be much better if we were using cats.

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Re: The influence of natural ability on swimming and running performance, as illustrated by dogs... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Apr 26, 17 11:18

Post #6 of 35 (3498 views)

Cats don't like their face to get wet....so, they won't do flip turns.

Re: The influence of natural ability on swimming and running performance, as illustrated by dogs... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Apr 26, 17 11:20

Post #7 of 35 (3493 views)

Since dogs swim with their heads up do their hips drop ?

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "

Re: The influence of natural ability on swimming and running performance, as illustrated by dogs... [Leddy] [ In reply to ]

Apr 26, 17 11:25

Post #8 of 35 (3472 views)

How is his turn over?

Re: The influence of natural ability on swimming and running performance, as illustrated by dogs... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Apr 26, 17 11:33

Post #9 of 35 (3454 views)

cool post, thanks.
I'm a dog "nut" (on the BOD of a breed club).

Long ago my wife and I adopted brother/sister littermates @ 8ish weeks from a breeder. Chesapeake Bay Retrievers. Both would shake in anticipation of swimming. We'd take them to Santa Cruz and throw rope aided retrieving toys into the surf and they learned or knew to duck under waves and pop up on the other side to get the toy. People would stand on the beach in amazement. Some with retrievers would try to get them to do the same thing. When the waves would approach they'd turn around. They loved swimming so much we'd have to leash the dogs to leave or they'd swim themselves to death. (never learned flip turns)

Later I got a Pudelpointer who I literally had to teach him to swim (lots of scratches to go with it), he did learn to enjoy it, but not like the Chesapeake's. But oh, what a runner, go go go.

we are like dogs - bred for different things. we just have to discover the "thing." A triathlete dog??? That. I gotta see

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

Last edited by: manofthewoods: Apr 26, 17 13:30

Re: The influence of natural ability on swimming and running performance, as illustrated by dogs... [manofthewoods] [ In reply to ]

Apr 26, 17 11:42

Post #10 of 35 (3431 views)

Best dog I ever had was a Chessie/chocolate lab mix. She would swim until she pretty much passed out from exhaustion. Her favorite game was for us to throw rocks where the water was about 4-5' deep. She would swim out, go underwater, and somehow bring back the rock we threw. She wasn't feeling well at one point so we took her to the vet...apparently there were so many rocks in her stomach that it looked like a gravel pit! Damn, I miss my dog now and it's been 15 years.

Re: The influence of natural ability on swimming and running performance, as illustrated by dogs... [Leddy] [ In reply to ]

Apr 26, 17 12:19

Post #11 of 35 (3352 views)

In all seriousness, no. I have a Yellow Lab who is a badass swimmer. And if we had long tails I bet our hind parts wouldn't drop either. Watching that dog fetch and swim even in turbulent water is really interesting just from a performance perspective. Forget how fun it is just to play fetch with your dog. But that tail is long and does a smooth sweeping motion constantly back and forth. I think it helps slightly with propulsion, but it seems more about actually helping with good body position and stability while keeping the hips in good position relative to the surface.

And don't forget - dogs like Labs and Chessies and Flat Coats have webbed feet. No fair!

More dog threads! With pictures!

It is the mind itself which builds the body.
-Joseph Pilates

Re: The influence of natural ability on swimming and running performance, as illustrated by dogs... [wannabefaster] [ In reply to ]

Apr 26, 17 18:51

Post #12 of 35 (3182 views)

wannabefaster wrote:

I have three pure bred labs (two rescues, one we bought). One of them will swim until exhaustion and the other two will both wade in until their body touches the water but no deeper.

Your doggy swim/run dichotomy plays out in my house as well.

Very interesting, thanks!!!

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: The influence of natural ability on swimming and running performance, as illustrated by dogs... [DougEFresh] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 17 6:16

Post #13 of 35 (3051 views)

I used to have a flat coated retriever. That dog loved to swim and she was good at it. I would take her to the local lake, and she would retrieve all of the buoys that the other dogs wouldn't. She even taught other dogs how to do it (no one is as good at training a dog as an older female dog). I had to be careful because she would swim until she could barely stand if I let her.

Now we have a rescue pit bull. She lived on a chain for the first two years of her life. She hates the water (possibly from living without shelter for so long), but that dog can run. She doesn't do well in the heat, but in the winter, she can easily run 15 miles. With her, I have to be careful because she will run until her feet bleed.

The genes are strong in those dogs.

Re: The influence of natural ability on swimming and running performance, as illustrated by dogs... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 17 8:04

Post #14 of 35 (3005 views)

I have nothing to add, but your post reminded me of this video.

Dog heads for the beach

Re: The influence of natural ability on swimming and running performance, as illustrated by dogs... [manofthewoods] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 17 8:58

Post #15 of 35 (2957 views)

I have a 2 1/2 year old greyhound that I got when she was a puppy. (The runt of the litter who was too small to race.) I live in a city without much outdoor space so when she was small I was always looking for ways to tire her out. Found a place that does fly-ball training and agility training. Another place opened up for me that does indoor swimming for dogs. I wasn't surprised that she would love activities that involve running fast. I was super surprised though when she took to swimming immediately. Ever since then my wife has been calling her a triathlete just like her dad. If only I could run half that speed!!!

Re: The influence of natural ability on swimming and running performance, as illustrated by dogs... [Kevin in MD] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 17 9:43

Post #16 of 35 (2928 views)

That is quite possibly the best video on the internet.

Re: The influence of natural ability on swimming and running performance, as illustrated by dogs... [happyscientist] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 17 10:44

Post #17 of 35 (2888 views)

My rescue pittie would be a good runner, except for the intense doggy ADD that landed me on the concrete one too many times. Hates anything water-related. I think that's pretty typical for the breed (they do tend to be overdramatic with any type of weather situation). She does have the eating component of triathlon down, though.

Re: The influence of natural ability on swimming and running performance, as illustrated by dogs... [Jelana] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 17 12:22

Post #18 of 35 (2824 views)

"Dogness" this 'Murican Pit crossed w/ Cane Corso (sp?) can swim the blazes. Jumped with the TSUN OW sessions last summer and kept up!! Kids had to invoke their kicks to put some distance behind Dogness' front paws. Dogs do float flat, no other way to explain it.

<https://twitter.com/...s/763962163148881920

I run with our Heeler Claire. Her stride rate in a trot is up there. If I can get her to gallop I'm @ race pace :)

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Last edited by: SharkFM: Apr 27, 17 12:25

Re: The influence of natural ability on swimming and running performance, as illustrated by dogs... [Kevin in MD] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 17 18:59

Post #19 of 35 (2729 views)

Kevin in MD wrote:

I have nothing to add, but your post reminded me of this video.

Dog heads for the beach

Since you teach swimming to adults, you're very qualified to add your view on my follow-on argument. Given that swimming talent, as well as run and bike talent, appears to be largely innate, any given person should be able to achieve their swim, bike, and run potential regardless of whether they swam, biked, or ran as a kid, i.e. if a person has some swim talent, he/she can become a good swimmer at any age but if not, it doesn't really matter if he/she started at age 5, they will not become much of a swimmer. Same thing applies to running either: either you have distance running talent or you don't. I hate to seem pessimistic but this is the way i see it based on many yrs of observation. To me, this implies that there is no good reason why triathlon should not be much more equilateral than it is, unless you consider making the swim shorter to get more entries a good reason, which I do not, or you think that the "history of Ironman" requires adhering to those bar-bet distances forever. Your thoughts???

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: The influence of natural ability on swimming and running performance, as illustrated by dogs... [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Apr 27, 17 19:47

Post #20 of 35 (2690 views)

SharkFM wrote:

"Dogness" this 'Murican Pit crossed w/ Cane Corso (sp?) can swim the blazes. Jumped with the TSUN OW sessions last summer and kept up!! Kids had to invoke their kicks to put some distance behind Dogness' front paws. Dogs do float flat, no other way to explain it.

<https://twitter.com/...s/763962163148881920

I run with our Heeler Claire. Her stride rate in a trot is up there. If I can get her to gallop I'm @ race pace :)

What sort of pace can she realistically swim at? 1:30/100m?

Re: The influence of natural ability on swimming and running performance, as illustrated by dogs... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 17 5:07

Post #21 of 35 (2599 views)

Bit unrelated but when I'd trail run as a kid I had a medium sized rescue bitzer (staffy x something larger) that could comfortably do 2-3km of hills at probably 6min/km pace.

She's way passed that now and lives a comfy life of beach swims and frisbee with the parents now.

Thinking of eventually getting my own dog that I could run with.

I like Malinois and Rhodesian Ridgebacks and from what I've heard they run decently well.

Anyone got any experience running with their dog? Any advice?

Re: The influence of natural ability on swimming and running performance, as illustrated by dogs... [Gonzorini] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 17 5:18

Post #22 of 35 (2592 views)

From what I have heard, if you want a real runner, get a Vizla. There is a 15k trail race (raises money for an animal shelter) that my dog and I do every year, and the Vizlas would win every time if their owners were faster. Those dogs don't look tired at the end. I know a couple of people who have had good running partners in German shorthaired pointers, too. Plus, those dogs tend to live long lives and be pretty healthy.

Like I said above, my pit bull (who has a very lean build) can do 15 miles in the winter, but overheats easily in the summer. Just like with humans, they need to be eased into it so they don't get injured. My dog has learned to drink from a handheld water bottle, but she carries a backpack with her own water on long runs. You can also get leashes that come with a belt so you can run handsfree.

Last edited by: happyscientist: Apr 28, 17 5:20

Re: The influence of natural ability on swimming and running performance, as illustrated by dogs... [happyscientist] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 17 5:58

Post #23 of 35 (2568 views)

Sweet mate thanks!

Did a little bit of youtubing and research and Vizsla's look great.

Definitely an option

Re: The influence of natural ability on swimming and running performance, as illustrated by dogs... [Gonzorini] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 17 6:52

Post #24 of 35 (2525 views)

Springer Spaniels make great running buddys. Mine accompanies me on virtually every run and he LOVES it, he is always so excited to come out running with me whatever time of day it is and now he is fully grown he can easily manage 20+miles without getting tired.

I run mainly off road so he's off the lead most of the time, he runs about exploring stuff and sniffing in the undergrowth etc. but never lets me get more than 50m before he sprints back and if I call him he comes straight back. I typically run 6 - 8 min miles and that gives him plenty of time to explore and then sprint back whenever he wants. The athletic breeds are so much faster than any human will ever be, your running pace will be pathetic to them.

On warmer days and longer runs you have to look after them, take water/food for them and try to make sure you get near a pond/river/lake so they can jump in and cool off. You also have to put time into their training from a young age (most breed of gundog are superb to train) but this will reap benefits as they grow and you will benefit from a wonderful running partner

Re: The influence of natural ability on swimming and running performance, as illustrated by dogs... [happyscientist] [ In reply to ]

Apr 28, 17 7:22

Post #25 of 35 (2502 views)

She's wearing the same Ruffwear pack I got for my boy. He's a mutt mix that also is not terribly heat tolerant so I've also tried their swamp cooler jacket as we lived in TX and now NC. He's long nosed but has thick fur almost like some husky in his background hence he's not a fan of greater than 70 unless it's the water temperature. He will run 10 miles well if cool and will swim anytime including in the Atlantic in February. As far as biking, I got him a trailer because of speed and him overheating so the fool runs alongside until exhausted then he'll stand in his trailer with his head out. Pulling 100 pounds of dog and trailer definitely increases my workload.

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