The endless annoying drafting situation.

Jul 27, 15 8:01

Post #1 of 71 (6837 views)

Signed up last week to do the Mission Man Triathlon in Burlington and knew that I would be in for an uphill battle after the open water swim (and my lack of training recently.)

After a sluggish swim I jumped on the bike and started to reel in folks. After I passed racer 252 (Wally Warren) he immediately sat on me. I turned around and told him to get off my wheel, but there was no reaction. We were the passed by impressive riding John Austin and that Wally Warren guy immediately jumped on him. I called him out again but it almost seemed like he did not speak English or gave a crap, because no reaction came. I attacked multiple times but John Austin rode too well, and that meant Wally Warren stayed with us all along.

I dropped him hard during the run but it still bummed me out big time as such blatant cheating is still bull. I ended up in 4th place in my age group and he in 4th in his I think. John Austin who in my view rode fair ended up winning his age group. So good for him.

His bike was racked next to mine (I was bib 250), but as my toddler boys were with me when I picked up my bike from transition after the race I refrained from speaking to him as I did not want my kids to learn foul language. I did however hear him speak, and he did seem to understand English.

Last edited by: Herbert: Jul 27, 15 14:56

Re: The endless annoying drafting situation. [Herbert] [ In reply to ]

Jul 27, 15 8:10

Post #2 of 71 (6802 views)

Herbert wrote:

Signed up last week to do the Mission Man Triathlon in Burlington and knew that I would be in for an uphill battle after the open water swim (and my lack of training recently.)

After a sluggish swim I jumped on the bike and started to reel in folks. After I passed racer 252 (Wally Warren) he immediately sat on me. I turned around and told him to get off my while, but there was no reaction. We were the passed by impressive riding John Austin and that Wally Warren guy immediately jumped on him. I called him out again but it almost seemed like he did not speak English or gave a crap, because no reaction came. I attacked multiple times but John Austin rode too well, and that meant Wally Warren stayed with us all along.

The sad part is that both of you most likely got an advantage from Wally Warren drafting. It's not the the drafter, but also the draftee that get the advantage.

Drafting is not a victimless crime, as races are always a zero-sum game. If you draft, you ruin everyone's race.

AndyF
bike geek

Re: The endless annoying drafting situation. [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Jul 27, 15 10:27

Post #3 of 71 (6578 views)

How does the draftee get a benefit?

Re: The endless annoying drafting situation. [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Jul 27, 15 10:34

Post #4 of 71 (6539 views)

I only got angered.

Re: The endless annoying drafting situation. [Triagain2] [ In reply to ]

Jul 27, 15 10:36

Post #5 of 71 (6526 views)

Triagain2 wrote:

How does the draftee get a benefit?

It's a well-known effect. Drafting benefits both. The lead riders gets anywhere from 2-8% reduction in drag.
http://ac.els-cdn.com/...f428a1aed46a9e9fe604

AndyF
bike geek

Re: The endless annoying drafting situation. [Triagain2] [ In reply to ]

Jul 27, 15 10:36

Post #6 of 71 (6526 views)

Triagain2 wrote:

How does the draftee get a benefit?

There is a slight benefit to the lead cyclist because the drafter pushes a region of high-pressure air in front of them, somewhat filling in what would be a low-pressure zone behind the lead cyclist. It's not as much of a benefit as the drafter gets, but it is present.

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Re: The endless annoying drafting situation. [Herbert] [ In reply to ]

Jul 27, 15 10:39

Post #7 of 71 (6509 views)

Seems like it would be easier to allow drafting in all races, just as drafting is allowed in the swim leg, ITU racing, and pro cycling.

Herbert wrote:

Signed up last week to do the Mission Man Triathlon in Burlington and knew that I would be in for an uphill battle after the open water swim (and my lack of training recently.)

After a sluggish swim I jumped on the bike and started to reel in folks. After I passed racer 252 (Wally Warren) he immediately sat on me. I turned around and told him to get off my while, but there was no reaction. We were the passed by impressive riding John Austin and that Wally Warren guy immediately jumped on him. I called him out again but it almost seemed like he did not speak English or gave a crap, because no reaction came. I attacked multiple times but John Austin rode too well, and that meant Wally Warren stayed with us all along.

I dropped him hard during the run but it still bummed me out big time as such blatant cheating is still bull. I ended up in 4th place in my age group and he in 4th in his I think. John Austin who in my view rode fair ended up winning his age group. So good for him.

His bike was racked next to mine (I was bib 250), but as my toddler boys were with me when I picked up my bike from transition after the race I refrained from speaking to him as I did not want my kids to learn foul language. I did however hear him speak, and he did seem to understand English.

Re: The endless annoying drafting situation. [Triagain2] [ In reply to ]

Jul 27, 15 10:43

Post #8 of 71 (6485 views)

Triagain2 wrote:

How does the draftee get a benefit?

A drafter fills in the turbulent eddy that would be following the draftee. While being drafted the vortices that occur from the turbulent flow are no longer acting against the draftee, so an advantage is available. It is small, but it's there.

Re: The endless annoying drafting situation. [Jason80134] [ In reply to ]

Jul 27, 15 10:46

Post #9 of 71 (6465 views)

Jason80134 wrote:

Seems like it would be easier to allow drafting in all races, just as drafting is allowed in the swim leg, ITU racing, and pro cycling.

That would turn Ironman into a team sport, wouldn't it?

AndyF
bike geek

Re: The endless annoying drafting situation. [champy] [ In reply to ]

Jul 27, 15 10:47

Post #10 of 71 (6457 views)

Yes it is small. Smaller effect still, when the drafter jumps from wheel to wheel. The only real race-result-altering benefit is to the drafter.

Solution. Pee on the bike. Snot rockets*. Open a lid on the stickiest electrolyte bottle you got.

*And hope they clear the tower. There are (usually) no sleeves or gloves in triathlon to wipe yourself with.

Re: The endless annoying drafting situation. [Herbert] [ In reply to ]

Jul 27, 15 11:45

Post #11 of 71 (6319 views)

Mentioned this before, but I still think the best answer to combat drafting is undercover draft marshals combined with DQ for blatant/extended drafting. If part of your draft pack just might be an undercover bike marshal taking your number and giving you a DQ; it just might make you think twice. And that is what I think we all despise - the blatant drafter that just does it for miles and miles, really not even caring if they end up getting a penalty; since the time gains and effort reduction make that more than worth it.

Re: The endless annoying drafting situation. [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Jul 27, 15 11:49

Post #12 of 71 (6303 views)

Is ITU a team sport?
Can you draft in swimming?

AndyF wrote:

Jason80134 wrote:

Seems like it would be easier to allow drafting in all races, just as drafting is allowed in the swim leg, ITU racing, and pro cycling.

That would turn Ironman into a team sport, wouldn't it?

Re: The endless annoying drafting situation. [Jason80134] [ In reply to ]

Jul 27, 15 11:54

Post #13 of 71 (6267 views)

Jason80134 wrote:

Is ITU a team sport?
Can you draft in swimming?

AndyF wrote:

Jason80134 wrote:

Seems like it would be easier to allow drafting in all races, just as drafting is allowed in the swim leg, ITU racing, and pro cycling.

That would turn Ironman into a team sport, wouldn't it?

But that is different. :)

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Re: The endless annoying drafting situation. [Jason80134] [ In reply to ]

Jul 27, 15 11:55

Post #14 of 71 (6265 views)

Jason80134 wrote:

Is ITU a team sport?
Can you draft in swimming?
That would turn Ironman into a team sport, wouldn't it?

Slightly easier to organise a group in cycling. ITU can be a team sport, yes. But Ironman participants would be able to organise in far larger groups than you can in ITU. Imagine a 20-person "Team Jason80134" organising a break. Or shielding its best runner.

AndyF
bike geek

Re: The endless annoying drafting situation. [pocolocoman] [ In reply to ]

Jul 27, 15 11:56

Post #15 of 71 (6258 views)

pocolocoman wrote:

Mentioned this before, but I still think the best answer to combat drafting is undercover draft marshals combined with DQ for blatant/extended drafting. If part of your draft pack just might be an undercover bike marshal taking your number and giving you a DQ; it just might make you think twice. And that is what I think we all despise - the blatant drafter that just does it for miles and miles, really not even caring if they end up getting a penalty; since the time gains and effort reduction make that more than worth it.

Undercover marshals are easily made. They have too many antennas, marshal bumpers, and a marshal spotlight.

Re: The endless annoying drafting situation. [AHare] [ In reply to ]

Jul 27, 15 12:01

Post #16 of 71 (6225 views)

AHare wrote:

Triagain2 wrote:

How does the draftee get a benefit?

There is a slight benefit to the lead cyclist because the drafter pushes a region of high-pressure air in front of them, somewhat filling in what would be a low-pressure zone behind the lead cyclist. It's not as much of a benefit as the drafter gets, but it is present.

Oh please....that's like saying a convenience store owner who gets robbed gets a benefit because in the act of emptying the cash register he gets some exercise for his arms, improving his health.

Re: The endless annoying drafting situation. [Dilbert] [ In reply to ]

ScottWrigleyFit

Jul 27, 15 12:02

Post #17 of 71 (6216 views)

Dilbert wrote:

pocolocoman wrote:

Mentioned this before, but I still think the best answer to combat drafting is undercover draft marshals combined with DQ for blatant/extended drafting. If part of your draft pack just might be an undercover bike marshal taking your number and giving you a DQ; it just might make you think twice. And that is what I think we all despise - the blatant drafter that just does it for miles and miles, really not even caring if they end up getting a penalty; since the time gains and effort reduction make that more than worth it.

Undercover marshals are easily made. They have too many antennas, marshal bumpers, and a marshal spotlight.

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Last edited by: ScottWrigleyFit: Jul 27, 15 12:02

Re: The endless annoying drafting situation. [Jason80134] [ In reply to ]

Jul 27, 15 12:03

Post #18 of 71 (6205 views)

Jason80134 wrote:

Is ITU a team sport?
Can you draft in swimming?

Yes and yes.

Although in most races they don't seem to act like much of a team, occasionally there is a bit of teamwork (forgot which race, but earlier this year Haskins towed Jorgensen for awhile to keep Gwen within chasing distance of the lead pack).

Drafting is legal in swimming, its not as effective as biking (~10% savings iirc).

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Re: The endless annoying drafting situation. [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Jul 27, 15 12:04

Post #19 of 71 (6203 views)

AndyF wrote:

Jason80134 wrote:

Is ITU a team sport?
Can you draft in swimming?
That would turn Ironman into a team sport, wouldn't it?

Slightly easier to organise a group in cycling. ITU can be a team sport, yes. But Ironman participants would be able to organise in far larger groups than you can in ITU. Imagine a 20-person "Team Jason80134" organising a break. Or shielding its best runner.

1. True, ITU can be a team sport but I've watched every single ITU race this year (triathlonlive is awesome) and in my opinion it's not really a factor. It might be in the Olympics with the country's third selection being a set up guy, but that's certainly the exception to ITU type racing as I see it.

2. What you described in IM honestly sounds interesting from a spectator perspective. I might see that as an improvement. No joke. However, how big is a pro field in most IM races? Usually not that big, right? Are you talking about armature teams in IM races? If so, that seems unlikely in reality. And again, that might be kind of fun too. Of course, that sort of changes the nature of the competition, but I would not have a problem with that. And then you have the benefit of not having the "endless annoying drafting situations".

Re: The endless annoying drafting situation. [Jason80134] [ In reply to ]

Runningwithbees

Jul 27, 15 12:07

Post #20 of 71 (6184 views)

Might as well just do a 2.4 mile swim followed by a marathon then. It would be a shame if people actually had to follow the rules. Might as well change them so people are happier and everything is easier

Re: The endless annoying drafting situation. [Jason80134] [ In reply to ]

Jul 27, 15 12:07

Post #21 of 71 (6182 views)

Jason80134 wrote:

1. True, ITU can be a team sport but I've watched every single ITU race this year (triathlonlive is awesome) and in my opinion it's not really a factor. It might be in the Olympics with the country's third selection being a set up guy, but that's certainly the exception to ITU type racing as I see it.

2. What you described in IM honestly sounds interesting from a spectator perspective. I might see that as an improvement. No joke. However, how big is a pro field in most IM races? Usually not that big, right? Are you talking about armature teams in IM races? If so, that seems unlikely in reality. And again, that might be kind of fun too. Of course, that sort of changes the nature of the competition, but I would not have a problem with that. And then you have the benefit of not having the "endless annoying drafting situations".

I totally agree that it could be fun, both from a riding and a spectating point of view.

But do you have any idea of the impact on the triathlon industry this would have? Forget aero bars -- they would be a thing of the past. Bike handling would suddenly become important.

It would be a Gran Fondo, with a bit of swimming and a marathon thrown in. :-)

AndyF
bike geek

Re: The endless annoying drafting situation. [Runningwithbees] [ In reply to ]

Jul 27, 15 12:08

Post #22 of 71 (6168 views)

There will always be something that people complain about. Maybe the water is too shallow in some parts and the "cheaters" will go aqua-jogging.

Re: The endless annoying drafting situation. [champy] [ In reply to ]

Runningwithbees

Jul 27, 15 12:12

Post #23 of 71 (6141 views)

can we start using elliptiGO's on the run too? Screw it, the run portion will now be on segways.

Re: The endless annoying drafting situation. [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Jul 27, 15 12:13

Post #24 of 71 (6124 views)

AndyF wrote:

The sad part is that both of you most likely got an advantage from Wally Warren drafting. It's not the the drafter, but also the draftee that get the advantage.

So true.

But have you watched the follow cars in the TdF and other european races? (maybe US races too, but I can't see nearly as many of them on tv) You can really see it in some TTs that I have watched on the tube. The cars are right on some rider's tails.

And to have a a cyclist draft you = small advantage.
But to have full-size car draft you = much, much bigger advantage.

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Re: The endless annoying drafting situation. [Runningwithbees] [ In reply to ]

Jul 27, 15 12:13

Post #25 of 71 (6124 views)

Exactly, you should always stick with something as it is. Never improve or evolve. I'm still pissed they added the forward pass in football.

Runningwithbees wrote:

Might as well just do a 2.4 mile swim followed by a marathon then. It would be a shame if people actually had to follow the rules. Might as well change them so people are happier and everything is easier

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