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The best advice i received from world class coach Brett Sutton......
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Athletes are ''liar's'. You need to threat them like racing horses.



Having coaches professional and age group triathletes for the past 15 years, i have to say this one piece of advise resonate strongly with me. During my career as a professional athletes, i had the privilege to work with some of the most brilliant mind of our sport. One of them was Brett Sutton. Doc (Brett) had a very colorful personality and was very good at telling story. But behind each story was a lesson to be learn about how to train athletes and get the most out of them.

Brett use to train race horses before becoming a triathlon coach. he would call those horses the perfect athletes as they would not talk but simply do the work. The difference with triathletes is...they have the ability to express them self with words.......and tell you ''how the feel'' Well, for those that have coach long enough, you know how objectivity , logic, pragmatism can be lost with many of our type A athletes.

Some will tell you they feel great...or that they do not need rest when there is obviously nothing left in there tank. Or perhaps you have the other kind of athletes that will tell you how tired and exhausted they are when all they really need is a solid kick in the butt. Before races....they will tell you how tired, over train , sick and unprepared they are all at the same time. And the next day execute the best race of there life.

Or perhaps like me, you coach WOMENS and get a completely other level of Drama 😉 How do you take the right decision to push them or hold them back? As Doc would say, you simply DON'T LISTEN to them. You look at them like a horses that cant talk. You need to be able to tell if they are tired, stiff, overwork, or if they can take on more abuse, push it a little further, ready to open it up and go hard. You as the coach are accountable to there well being so get good at looking at them and reading there posture, there attitude and the way they move. All info and answers you need are there in front of you.

He continued into a rant about how he does't understand coach that show up at the pool with there session already written down on a piece of paper. . And as swimmers jump in the pool and start warming up, the coach turn around and start writing down on the board the session and details of the training. That is exactly what you should not do. Look at them as they walk on deck..... don't turn your back at them.....see how they walk....observe there posture, anyone limping.....anyone with shoulder down, head looking at the floor, anyone showing excessive happiness??? look at them as they warm up..... how they move.... what level of energy they display., there interaction or lack of it with other swimmers.... and THEN.....make up your mind as what will be the best course of action and session for the day ahead.

Since that day, when i ask a athletes how they feel..... i m not asking as a matter of information...but to check if they are lying to me...or to them self! And for most part, i do not plan the session ahead of time. I do wait for the warm up to make up my mind and decide on the best course of action. While i will have a idea in mind and goal to reach..... i definitely find it easier to iron out the details in the moment....

group is tired..... sprinting will bring them back to life...

energy is high.... time for the more grueling long repeats and longer distance set that require lots of mental fortitude.

there isn't any perfect receipt and a million way to skin a cat, but i sure enjoy the Doc view on the subject.

next time....perhaps we can talk about how this mentality work with online coaching. because yes....even my online athletes are liars!!!! you have to find a way to read them!!!!

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Last edited by: jonnyo: Aug 16, 17 13:52
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Re: The best advice i received from world class coach Brett Sutton...... [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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I seem to have a problem whereby I lie to myself when I feel like I'm on the verge of getting injured, but am getting close to being really fit (for me), and so i keep going in the hope of getting fitter. This strategy has never worked for me, usually get at least a couple of injuries each year (last one was the beginnings of a stress fracture). Have finally decided that it is better to be consistent than try to aim for some kinda 'breakthrough' in pushing myself too hard in training.

In terms of determining who is lying, good luck with that...
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Re: The best advice i received from world class coach Brett Sutton...... [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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A lifetime ago when I lived in Ohio, I trained under Bob Schul (1964 5,000m gold medalist), and this was exactly his approach to coaching. All training began with an easy 1.5 mile run then 10x100m stride outs easy. After that, Bob would talk to everyone about their weekend, what races they had done, etc. Then he would start breaking us up into several groups and assigning our first set of intervals (all on grass). After a set we jogged 800m then back to Bob who had been watching everyone like a hawk. He often moved people between groups depending on whether they were really showing great energy that day or lagging behind. And we never knew what the next set would be or how many sets we would do. That was all in Bob's head based on what he saw as we were running.

I don't know how you do that with online coaching, but yes it was highly effective and highly difficult training.
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Re: The best advice i received from world class coach Brett Sutton...... [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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This is an interesting view for a coached athlete (me) to be introduced to. An online one to boot. Maybe you need to fine some different athletes😮.
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Re: The best advice i received from world class coach Brett Sutton...... [Ktri] [ In reply to ]
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you are a little bit of a anomaly You have that very good ability to stick to the plan even when your head start overthinking ;) well, maybe not last week when i was away in yellowstone but i will get over that triple ride day ;)

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram
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Re: The best advice i received from world class coach Brett Sutton...... [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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Isn't the "Doc" a little bit of a liar himself? I'm not sure how anybody takes him seriously.
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Re: The best advice i received from world class coach Brett Sutton...... [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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Hmm so all these years you already knew how I felt when you asked that question to me?! Now I guess my question is, did I get the answer right to the "how do you feel" question?

Twitter - Instagram
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Re: The best advice i received from world class coach Brett Sutton...... [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
Isn't the "Doc" a little bit of a liar himself? I'm not sure how anybody takes him seriously.


Congratulations, you have unlocked the "tu quoque fallacy" achievement.
Last edited by: NordicSkier: Aug 16, 17 15:33
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Re: The best advice i received from world class coach Brett Sutton...... [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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Fancy words!
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Re: The best advice i received from world class coach Brett Sutton...... [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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Yup. busted.

______________________________________________________________

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Re: The best advice i received from world class coach Brett Sutton...... [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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I think it could be challenging for some to do this online.

I for sure, have done 3 marathon cycles with high mileage (70+mpw) where I ran all PR times for shorter races in the buildup, increasingly faster speedwork and overall times with the buildup, then crashed and burned spectacular on race day due to overtraining. Literally couldn't run faster than 9min/mile even at mile 1 of the marathon despite a 2 week legit gradual taper and doing multiple 20 mile long runs at 7:02/mile.

if you just looked at my numbers, you would have thought I would have crushed it big-time, as I was crushing all my workouts. But turns out I'm just overmotivated to push hard and do well,and in fact I wouldn't have been lying at all if I told you that "I felt like dirt" through the end of it and felt totally fatigued and burned out.

In my case, listening to my subjective symptoms was wayyyy more important than my objective numbers, which I could artificially inflate by hammering when I should have been resting.
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Re: The best advice i received from world class coach Brett Sutton...... [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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Brett's best line, referring to coaching Christie Wellington, "I needed strong biceps . . . to hold her back"!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: The best advice i received from world class coach Brett Sutton...... [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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I really want to like this guy, but every time I read something written about him or something he's written I just walk away with the impression he's just a complete, opinionated tool. There was some rubbish he wrote about pull buoys, I can't even remember it, I skim read it, it was that banal and odd. And his badly spelt letters and emails - that seems to be some wanky affectation. With spell checker and autocorrect it's almost impossible to spell as badly as he does, he must actually go back and change correct words so they appear as spelling mistakes...
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Re: The best advice i received from world class coach Brett Sutton...... [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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In terms of determining who is lying, good luck with that...

------

90% of my athletes I see locally and get to coach them min 2-3 sessions a week and more for my development athletes (6 days a week).

However the few athletes I coach remotely I talk to them in text...Ive gotten a knack for reading them on their response to my texts and their general comments.....bad sets or not feeling it, I'll get much more delayed responses and "cold" commentary.

This works for me atleast but I communicate a lot with my athletes and I have a "flat" fee none of that (gold/silver/ 1 text a week communication structure....not that there is anything wrong with that)

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: The best advice i received from world class coach Brett Sutton...... [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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I don't use a coach but that's pretty much how I train- if I wake up and feel good, I test my limits. If I'm hurting, I take it easy. I have had people interested in coaching me but I just don't see any value in having someone plug in workouts each week.

USAT Level II- Ironman U Certified Coach
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Re: The best advice i received from world class coach Brett Sutton...... [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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jonnyo wrote:
Athletes are ''liar's'. You need to threat them like racing horses.



*******

One of them was Brett Sutton. Doc (Brett) had a very colorful personality and was very good at telling story. But behind each story was a lesson to be learn about how to train athletes and get the most out of them.

******
Or perhaps like me, you coach WOMENS and get a completely other level of Drama 😉

Sorry, but I can't take anyone that supports Sutton seriously, not to mention someone that openly gender stereotypes.
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Re: The best advice i received from world class coach Brett Sutton...... [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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Interested to know, and maybe you're the one to answer Jonnyo.

When I was doing my diligence on Brett I obviously read all the posts etc on line. I never once came across any reference to him being a professional boxer, or horse trainer, other than from himself or other people regurgitating what he'd said in interviews etc.

In terms of his own timeline, when did these two take place? And does anybody have any actual reference to them, other than Brett's own hyperbole? Where in Aussie (I assume) who did he fight in this Professional career? Back in maybe 2011/2012 he kept talking about a book 'his book' that he was working on, when he first really started buying into blogging and getting his thoughts out to social media (I think it was toward the end of TBB), but this has never eventuated. I am just interested in filling in some gaps.

http://www.sweat7.com
Facebook Page: Sweat7
Twitter: @sweat7coaching
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Re: The best advice i received from world class coach Brett Sutton...... [salmonsteve] [ In reply to ]
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steve, honestly, i would be in the same boat as you...i have nothing more than is word sitting over dinners, workout etc and talking about coaching. He could easily have made this up for all i know. But he made up a lot of story.... it was is way to pass a message and teach. the message deliver was always very original but i never care so much for those fact but for the message he was trying to pass on to me.

so yeah, i dont know!!!

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: The best advice i received from world class coach Brett Sutton...... [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
In terms of determining who is lying, good luck with that...

------

90% of my athletes I see locally and get to coach them min 2-3 sessions a week and more for my development athletes (6 days a week).

However the few athletes I coach remotely I talk to them in text...Ive gotten a knack for reading them on their response to my texts and their general comments.....bad sets or not feeling it, I'll get much more delayed responses and "cold" commentary.

This works for me atleast but I communicate a lot with my athletes and I have a "flat" fee none of that (gold/silver/ 1 text a week communication structure....not that there is anything wrong with that)

well research indicates that body language is not always the best indicator at whether someone is 'lying'...
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Re: The best advice i received from world class coach Brett Sutton...... [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
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"The fact is swimming with a modified pull-buoy will enhance every age-group athlete in some capacity with their swim. As for the debate about on how much pull-buoy work you should do? There is no debate. Feel free to use the pull-buoy as much and as often as you like. Do so with the confidence that it will not hurt your swim.
Some of the best swimmers in the sport only take their pull-buoy out to go to the bathroom, while others use it for everything apart from the main set. Do I jump up and down and complain they are affecting their biomechanics ? No, because they are enhancing them."

^ Sorry, but that's just fucking retarded.

Then he does shit like kick people's water bottles away screaming they don't get to use water bottles in the swim leg of a race. Last time I heard you couldn't use pull buoys in a race.
I think he has a lot of knowledge as a coach, but his ability has been greatly exaggerated, hel;p[ed by the fact he has had a lot of success with his athletes e.g Chrissie Wellington. But then how much of her success is attributable to him. She won the world champs in 2007 on an old aluminium road bike with training wheels. And I think she won IM Korea on the same bike. He's given way too much credit for her success.


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Re: The best advice i received from world class coach Brett Sutton...... [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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Was expecting "don't molest teenage girls" advice. :-)
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Re: The best advice i received from world class coach Brett Sutton...... [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
I think it could be challenging for some to do this online.

I for sure, have done 3 marathon cycles with high mileage (70+mpw) where I ran all PR times for shorter races in the buildup, increasingly faster speedwork and overall times with the buildup, then crashed and burned spectacular on race day due to overtraining. Literally couldn't run faster than 9min/mile even at mile 1 of the marathon despite a 2 week legit gradual taper and doing multiple 20 mile long runs at 7:02/mile.

if you just looked at my numbers, you would have thought I would have crushed it big-time, as I was crushing all my workouts. But turns out I'm just overmotivated to push hard and do well,and in fact I wouldn't have been lying at all if I told you that "I felt like dirt" through the end of it and felt totally fatigued and burned out.

In my case, listening to my subjective symptoms was wayyyy more important than my objective numbers, which I could artificially inflate by hammering when I should have been resting.

A train eye would most likely have see the issue arising with you. I rarely ever have athlete ''crushing'' workouts. if they do..i know there is a issue. most of my athletes are under a very constant and regular training load and it s a very controle environement.



For exemple: in this thread, poster Jrielley is one of my athletes.... the kind that never complain, never miss a workout and just get the work done. he was setting solid session day after day but i simply could feel that while reaching the goal i set....there was something just not right and too much fatigue accumulating. while we didnt even talk, i simply email him on sunday afternoon to make him skip a workout and change the last week of build. this weekend, he finished 3rd overall at steelhead 70.3 and qualified for his pro card. not bad for a soccer player that turn triathlete! was it the right call...well, i hope so...it s a call i had to do as i know he will never complain to me about excessive fatique...and he is a overacheiver like you that will deliver good numbers even when very tired...




On the other hand, i have a girl that complain every single workout. love working with her, she is a world class warrior and athlete...but she tell me how tired she is daily. and i keep on turning the screw and asking for more. She told me all week long how tired she felt leading up to ironman whistler 2 weeks ago. On the race day she broke the past course record for the pro women....best race of her life.... 9:2X and 2nd overall to a world class performance by linsey corbin...

i have to make calls on what i see and data i get...and the message i get from the mouth of the athlete is often different. None of those athletes are badly intended... or volunteer liar.... but the body send mix signal all the time and my job as a coach is to analyse those and make hopefully the right call. i get some right...i get some wrong....That s the lesson Brent was passing along....don't rely on athletes verbal/written feedback

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram
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Re: The best advice i received from world class coach Brett Sutton...... [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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cerveloguy wrote:
Was expecting "don't molest teenage girls" advice. :-)

X2. I wish he would just go away forever. I guess I can be happy that there is one less sexual predator in the USA.

DFL > DNF > DNS
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Re: The best advice i received from world class coach Brett Sutton...... [SallyShortyPnts] [ In reply to ]
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SallyShortyPnts wrote:
cerveloguy wrote:
Was expecting "don't molest teenage girls" advice. :-)


X2. I wish he would just go away forever. I guess I can be happy that there is one less sexual predator in the USA.

With his history I would have expected him to act with a bit more dignity and humility.
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Re: The best advice i received from world class coach Brett Sutton...... [SallyShortyPnts] [ In reply to ]
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SallyShortyPnts wrote:
cerveloguy wrote:
Was expecting "don't molest teenage girls" advice. :-)


X2. I wish he would just go away forever. I guess I can be happy that there is one less sexual predator in the USA.



Wow, some people never can let go....

It's either that they are directly affected or feel the need to projecting something else they feel guilty about....
Last edited by: windschatten: Aug 17, 17 1:04
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